MX Linux Forum

Just some thoughts on something mentioned in another thread, specifically @anticapitalista, seen you(him) around in MANY forums over the years, for a long time didn't know you were closely associated with AntiX. Though of course this is a free for all and all are welcome etc. Get the sinking feeling it's already obvious what the community sentiment is going to be but still it's a forum, so discussion is encouraged by all, on any relevant subject.

Some background on me .. started with Linux Mint 10, almost started with #! (Crunchbang) but the "may make your computer go crunch and bang" thing put me off for awhile. For me progression over the last almost 9yrs went like this ... LM10 4-5wks, #! 6 months or so, then minimal Debian netinstall from there onwards and that's never changing now. What this has to do with anything ? Errrrr, mentioned don't doubt BL (Bunsenlabs) is a solid Debian stable based distro regardless but when it comes to AntiX am hoping the people behind it have a change of heart on their stance on systemd. Have installed AntiX several times over the years, it's always been a great solid distro, though never used it for any length of time either. Still it fought it's way through the ranks honestly on it's own merits and the skills of the people behind the distro. As an ultra light gnu/Nix distro that'll blaze along great on low or high-spec systems. Earned it's place, earned it's userbase, no doubt learned many valuable lessons and gained experience and a wider skill-set as things went along, whereas BL inherited much of it from Corenominal's generosity in endorsing it and redirecting traffic from #! to them. Don't get me wrong wish BL success too.

Holding onto the past (SysV)is only sure to have a negative impact on a cool and useful distro like AntiX. For many, MANY reasons, many devs apparently aren't even bothering to ship init scripts for things anymore, Debian is NOT going to devote any major effort to support alternative init's either. Systemd is going to receive the lion's share of attention, energy and focus. As will upstream of them too. As things move forward it's going to become more apparent it's not a worthwhile endeavor to hang onto the past (an inferior init). What transfer init scripts from versions prior to systemd to support SysV ? Write them yourselves ? Can see all manner of odd borkage beginning to creep in on the distro's users as upstream further commits to moving forward with systemd. Just a general expression of encouragement to jump on the right horse now. Don't want to see a kickbutt distro crash and burn, or get marginalized, rather than hopefully gathering more support and a larger userbase. Haven't studied the history of MX as of yet, so not really sure about it. Only that it's getting PLENTY of good reviews.

ie: Devuan ... claim to fame forking Debian and systemd free, yeah right, people endlessly gripe about how old things in Debian stable are already, so what ? Getting a distro that's a stable release behind latest Debian stable and still misses out on all the benefits systemd brings ? No thanks, if were going to bother with such nonsense personally I'd just grab the archived EOL = end of life Debian releases and software before systemd came on the scene and use those. Not like that software stops working great, just because it's no longer supported but who wants to miss out on future developments and features ? Even though yeah, could run such a system almost indefinitely. Personally looking forward to a fully systemd based OS, no init scripts needing backwards compatibility at all (everything managed by uniform unit files), at least as few init scripts as possible.

Just a hope that AntiX and MX consider things fully and go from there. Though DANG SURE want to see AntiX stay on the scene and hopefully keep moving up in popularity. If I hadn't gone with #! back then, very likely could've been AntiX. Have much respect for the people behind the distro, their skills and tastes in configuring gnu/Linux. Also clearly MX has a BUNCH of kickbutt things to offer desktop nixers too. Just the thoughts/opinions of a random nixer. Not my call or decision(s) to make.

Have a good zombie movie paused on youtube but either way it goes still wish all the distro's mentioned in this babble (Antix, MX and Bunsenlabs future success.)

I think we're on the same page.

Just as an example... I bought a new Dell laptop; super fast by my standards; Ubuntu certified because I check such things. On this laptop, I absolutely have to run with a systemd OS in order to make the laptop fan quiet down and not sound like my desk is taking off for a flight. With manjaro (I used it for more than 5 years) the pc is quiet & fast. Without a systemd native distro on the laptop, it literally screams. My dad who is nearly 91 an nearly deaf... he can hear the fan. As with everything in life, things move on. We can be be opposed to a change, but we can't deny its existence. And, over time we all need to accommodate the changes or be left behind.

There are plenty of systemd distros out there ... enjoy. antiX will not be one of them.

anixer wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:44 amie: Devuan ... claim to fame forking Debian and systemd free, yeah right, people endlessly gripe about how old things in Debian stable are already, so what ? Getting a distro that's a stable release behind latest Debian stable and still misses out on all the benefits systemd brings ?

This is the typical argument I see in favor of turning distros into systemd-only affairs: that only really Devuan works on any alternate init system.

Which is silly. Distrowatch lists a hundred "non-systemd" distros, including a bunch of real heavyweight communities. Slackware and Gentoo - you don't get much more established than that.

And systemd already runs great on MX, and you have the option right there in the grub menu.

Hey, no worries ... though Slackware and Gentoo work fundamentally differently than majority of gnu/Linux for desktop users. Yes they know what they're doing ( I mean their users actually tend to really know what they doing/talking about.) Avg Ubuntu users ? Nope. Such distro's are a tiny minority of course. Don't mind compiling from source etc etc. MANY differences, in many ways compared to overall desktop Nixsphere. From what I understand that's just the way Slackware works and as for Gentoo (so does Slackware), they expect people to know and use whatever pleases them. Used Devuan as example because view it as a joke, HEY WE'RE FORKING DEBIAN, gimme a break, Debian has decades of actual experience and folks who again actually know wth they're doing/talking about. Devuan isn't a fork, it's just another "based" on, with people who will never have the merest fraction of knowledge, skills and experience compared to those behind the Debian gnu/Nix project. It's insulting, is to me personally anyway. Not bothering saying more beyond that about them/it.

Bottom line in my view obviously systemd is the future init of gnu/Linux, keeping around an outdated, inferior patch work of an init(sysv) is not going to work in the best interests of it's users and the distro's. Doing neither any favors and is bound to become a real issue before too long. A dummy package named systemd which sends everything it can to /dev/null etc blahblah, sometimes referred to as a shim is not a solution for what's bound to be coming. Trying to trick other things into thinking systemd(their dependencies) are satisfied is a dirty hack.

Redhat(IBM)is not trying to destroy gnu/Linux, they are actually trying to improve it cause they have large amounts of ca$h riding on it. If the things top world tech experts settle on doesn't quite fit the tastes/preferences of folks who don't even know what an init is but don't like change, yeah am sure those folks care in the slightest user boogiewoogie using it for free somewhere doesn't quite agree with the choices they're making. Keeping an inferior init and doing whatever is involved to support it isn't doing much for "diversity" it's keeping/using an inferior init and holding onto the past in a situation that's sure to come at a cost and have a negative impact.

Hey is good to hear about MX, it's obvious the people behind it are good techies, are trying to consider many angles in decisions they make. Which is great, just saying think people should choose their battles, fighting against something which actually makes things better, even if someone manages to keep the thing going is a losing battle, in a losing war.

Funny analogy

Here take this new car free, it's got overdrive, leather seats.

No no no my battered yugo gets me around just fine. It's got headlights, windshield wipers, everything I need. YOU'LL NEVER FORCE ME to drive that newer better evil POS !!! AHHHHHH ! So what if it's leaking oil, tires are bare and smokes like a chimney going down the road. Baby still gots lotsa miles on it !!! :P

Hey is good to hear about MX, it's obvious the people behind it are good techies, are trying to consider many angles in decisions they make. Which is great, just saying think people should choose their battles, fighting against something which actually makes things better, even if someone manages to keep the thing going is a losing battle, in a losing war.

You're not computing: MX is not fighting systemd. We have our personal preference in the current situation, but make it ridiculously easy for users to boot into systemd. No fight there to be seen, just a choice of default.

I myself have just bought a new Lenovo desktop (IdeaCentre 510A) for work that today dropped 20% in price, at least here in the USA. I may well end up booting into systemd if it improves performance, won't bother me a stitch.

anixer wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:12 pmFunny analogy

Here take this new car free, it's got overdrive, leather seats.

No no no my battered yugo gets me around just fine. It's got headlights, windshield wipers, everything I need. YOU'LL NEVER FORCE ME to drive that newer better evil POS !!! AHHHHHH ! So what if it's leaking oil, tires are bare and smokes like a chimney going down the road. Baby still gots lotsa miles on it !!! :P

I find that neither funny nor analogous to anything.

@Jerry3904 that's cool and good, again ... shows maturity, hedging of bets etc. Whereas in the other thread referenced anticapitalista was saying for AntiX stuff like "never will be systemd", that's what sparked this thread. I LIKE ANTIX, shrugs. Not really up to speed and haven't tried MX as yet. For me what I config myself out of pure Debian is way I'm going. Will never bother with an out-of-box distro again ... ever. Though MX gets much favorable coverage and makes me curious to try it out.

@andyprough, might not amuse you but that's exactly what people clinging to an outdated and now inferior init are doing, literally. That's bottom line reality, hard fact based, not subject to interpretation for anyone who bothers realistically looking at the situation. Though here's another.

Take these steak and eggs (if you want, for free.)

Nope, no ... no, no. This old bologna sandwich is very filling and highly nutritional, NO WAY ! KEEP YOUR STINKING STEAK !!! I'll die before I eat that wretched thing ! You, you, you ... space alien corporate overlords from the ZOG dimension !!!

Errrrr ... great enjoy the bologna dude. :)

Really doesn't matter anyway, folks in control and in the know are going to do as they deem best, whatever peeps want to use or cling on to, I don't have reason to give a whit. Though mentioned do like AntiX either way.

I'll repeat : There are plenty of systemd distros out there ... enjoy. antiX will not be one of them.
What MX Linux decides to do is up to them.

^Hey hiya fellow nixer. You and any others of note behind AntiX was who I was trying to reach. Either way like AntiX ( and you dude, seen you many places over the years.) Overall it's not my call obviously. Still downloaded latest AntiX and will be dorking with it, if only for old times sake. Last time I played with AntiX was like a year ago, sitting in hospital after leg surgery. Ah no matter, might not ( or never ) come stock but once it gets to whichever nixers hands, at least this nixers hands, SysV is getting canned and systemd installed very quickly. Out of personal interest will do some comparison, check stats etc blahblah. Won't be sharing those as that would seem to be going against the wishes of a distro I like. Still personally going to look and see. :)

anixer wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:41 pm@andyprough, might not amuse you but that's exactly what people clinging to an outdated and now inferior init are doing

a troll with as much nonsense to spout as this guy really doesnt need to talk down to people who actually use their head when they type.

anixer, systemd is cheap, but you make it a LOT cheaper. no worries anyway, your posts wont bother me, i wont notice them. maybe try to get over yourself a little though. if you just wanted to be ridiculous, and not insult peoples intelligence, that would be one thing. but youre just trolling left and right, buddy. good luck, youll need it.

jerry congrats on the new computer.

Hold on.... put down popcorn .... where are those good dank memes I was storing. lmao

When I got scared of systemd because of all the horrible scenarios some bloggers were suggesting, like Skynet (from The Terminator movies) or that systemd would bring in Robotic Overlords to enslave humanity, I ran off to Slackware-based SalixOS for a bit. It was surprisingly easy for a non-geeky technophobe like me. It's still on the back burner if I get spooked again by all the negative horror stories about systemd. And of course, there's antiX too! I think I would just add Xfce and a few other little things to it.

Oops, @manyroads ... sorry didn't see your post fellow nixer. Yeah, that's the kind of negative impact I'm talking about, the expansion of power and device management built into systemd, it's there for many GOOD reasons too. Though poor Lennart Poettering, an obviously very highly skilled techie. Literally getting death threats (as head developer of systemd) from folks who don't even know what an init is, cause he dared to replace an outdated, hobbled together patchwork, no longer relevant init in gnu/Linux.

Hey @Artim, sorry about all the ranting just calling things as I see them. Have only ever briefly dorked with Slackware or based, remember a slapt-get thingy which seemed cool and interesting in one of the Slack-based I dorked with in distro-hop dys gone by. Cool ... not saying anybody has a real right to tell any other nixer what to do, again ... just airing my views on this. Time to SHUT-IT and MOVIE-IT too !!! :)

Rearranged pointless n stupid rant to respond to Artim, which takes priority over stupid/pointlessness.

How about the kernel, no diversity, there's only one, it's monolithic blahblahblah. Let's fork that puppy people !!! Sad part is of course people that have not the slightest idea what that really would mean or how ridiculous it is could very well be convinced with a ample dash of stupid and fud that such a thing is realistic. :D

Each their own, am shutting it said more than my piece. All pointless anyway. It's gnu/Linux do or try anything x-nixer desires with their hardware. That's a given no matter what. People have the right to be wrong (or remain clueless) if they so choose. Not my problem ... Yep totally getting on my own nerves, need to put down the coffee, step away from the forum and watch a good movie on youtube.

I repeat my question and invitation from another thread: have you used MX yet? Why not try it with sysV and with systemd, then comment on it based on your own personal use case?

So far you have not even checked out MX for yourself.

That's all I have to say.

^^ @asqwerth, yeah you're still right o course. Actual intent coming here was looking for AntiX though. No matter need to dl MX too. Still doing homework, looking over MX's distrowatch pg atm. :) It's (MX) on the 2-dork list now.

ForWIW, lol ... the 2-dork list can move slowly. Sometimes have the attention span of a fruit-fly. :D

anixer wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:12 am ^^ @asqwerth, yeah you're still right o course. Actual intent coming here was looking for AntiX though.

https://antixlinux.com/download/
https://mxlinux.org/download-links/

anixer wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:12 am It's (MX) on the 2-dork list now.

I don't know what the 2-dork list is but I can assure you more than 2 dorks were involved in creating both antiX and MX.

As for your quest to change antiX to be more like many/most other distros, I'm reminded of the old quote:

"Women marry men thinking they’re going to change them, and they never do."

With just a moment's reflection you might realize that many people use and love antiX because it doesn't use systemd. If we capitulate to the systemd pressure now, we would alienate a lot of our users. I don't understand why you want to stamp out distro diversity. Do you think there's a lack of distros that use systemd? Or a surplus of distros that don't use it? Do you want to rid the world of the plague of systemd-free distros?

With just a moment's reflection you might realize that many people use and love antiX because it doesn't use systemd.

It doesn't have systemd at all. MX has it but doesn't use it unless the user chooses it. It's the perfect sensible solution for users to whom it's important. Regardless if you like it, despise it, or are neutral about it, letting the user decide is a fantastic solution.

i have yet to read anything in layman's terms what difference the init system makes... i guess that means i don't need to care about it too much

whatever the devs here choose to do is good with me .... as a typical, rather clueless end user, i can't tell the difference having booted MX with systemd a few times... was expecting something explosive to happen :)

Artim wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:06 am MX has it but doesn't use it unless the user chooses it. It's the perfect sensible solution for users to whom it's important. Regardless if you like it, despise it, or are neutral about it, letting the user decide is a fantastic solution.

i think its impressive that mx offers the choice-- most anti-systemd distros seem to have enough of a challenge just maintaining freedom From systemd, while mx goes as far as supporting both. its just weird that debian thinks it cant but mx can.

being no fan of systemd or the attitude of its paid developers, the only problems i can think of with adding the mx-like choice to antix are:

1. potentially making antix a less "svelte" distro. it boots stupidly fast and seems trivial to fit onto a cd (whatever size it begins as.)

2. potentially leading to a (seemingly unlikely) point in the distant future where they decide to scrap options in favour of systemd, as debian has (i did say unlikely.) technically this could happen regardless, it just might give the small odds a tiny boost.

3. making it more difficult to maintain antix. when debian finds it so difficult to maintain choice, it seems miraculous that mx or antix can do it. im sure this is related to the number of packages debian maintains. even then...

at any rate, this is not a request to add mx-like choice to antix. i honestly assumed that (along with xfce) is what mx was for.

If systemd was just an init system it would not face the opposition that it does.

What it is intended to be is the entire layer between the kernel and the applications.
GNU/systemd/Linux

Too many responses to name each person so just going to be in general here and babble. Nopers, I like AntiX, well liked anyway, for me the decision to carry on with SysV is a definite downside element in my view of it. Sheesh at least do SysV + Openrc, something to make it at least different. Why do I feel such, mentioned some of those reasons throughout this thread already. Technical ... though all well documented and covered plenty of places online. I personally have no interest in any out-of-box gnu/Linux distribution. Don't have an interest in using any of them for any period of time outside of playing with and looking whichever of them over occasionally.

I create my own config of Debian gnu/nix, as I've done for many years. Super light, super stable/fast, all the things I want to use and tweaked to hades and gone. Given the knowledge, experience and skillset, yep ya know what they say, want something done right (setup to x-persons own tastes and preferences)... do it yourself. Don't need anyone else to config Debian for me. Even if what those people put out is kickbutt and liked/loved by those among it's community=userbase. Reason for thread was exactly what's stated in the title. A random nixers outlooks on things which may have positive or negative impact on a given nix distro.

Made it plain what type of impact I think holding onto SysV is going to have for effected distro's. Though hey, that's another of the awesome things about open source and what I like to think of as the Nixsphere (all the different gnu/Nix distributions running around in the wild.) They stand and fall on the decisions they(the devs/maintainers) make, of course including how they adapt to decisions made far, far, FAR above them "upstream". They grow or shrink, stay popular, lose popularity, grow or dwindle on their merits. It's a natural selection type thing among gnu/Linux operating systems.

PS, which hey the good press and popularity MX is enjoying is a clear reflection of the people behind it making good decisions, it's only natural. :)

One more observation, the ignorant only do one thing and well blahblah nonsense. Things have radically changed in tech, how it's used, what it's used on. Smart phones, smart cars, friggin blenders powered by gnu/Linux sitting on someone counter tops. Someone has to actually somewhat understand why systemd just doesn't stop at xyz-role, as only an init. When someone (highly friggin skilled) went to replace something like the init(SysV) in gnu/Linux, they also had to replace other outdated components which are setup/designed, also patchworked and bandaided to work with that outdated/inferior init. It'd be like a mechanic going to switch out the engine on a vehicle but the transmission and a bunch of other components aren't designed for it or are also getting ready to blowout themselves anyway.

Sure ... errr, fixed your engine, your transmission is slipping and about to blowout and needs to be replaced too or hell I had to duct-tape, had to grind and tack weld a bunch of stuff to get the sucker on cause it's not right for the new parts but hey, it works ... Will get the thing moving down the road for however long, in whatever condition and speed. Come back in see me in awhile, when it goes out and has to be replaced anyway. That's not a good mechanic, while they have the car stripped down, they go ahead and fix it right. Address those obvious issues then, rather than oh, okay good enough.

Again .. these are world league experts with literally 10's of BILLIONS of dollars riding on this platform (gnu/Linux.) Corporations which routinely spend millions per year in improving and contributing to making it better. They actually know what they're doing, why this or that needs to be replaced, why what they implement is better. They are not going to stop and say hey random user boogiewoogie who doesn't even know what an init is, are you okay with these changes ? Is this thing we're doing and paying for okay with you ? You ready to boot your computer with another init bud ?(again, BW doesn't know nor have any reason to care what PID1 even is.) Get real folks, people who chose to remain totally ignorant and waste their own time standing in the way of progress are not doing anything for "diversity". They're being clueless and really only hurting themselves, so honestly who cares ? Each their own, in my view that's only natural too. If my neighbor wants to sit on their porch and hit themselves in the foot with a hammer all day long, cool ... have a good time dude. :D

Okay ... end transmission in this thread. Got it off my chest, whether it had any point or not, shrugs. All those movies on youtube aren't going to watch themselves eh.

Somebody said, why Debian can't, if xyz-distro is kinda thing. Very simply, they know it's not worth the effort, know that current and future developments are better. So don't get don't want to confused with can't. They could do a much better job of anything projects downstream of them can/do. They have mucho more knowledge, skill, experience and resources (as in wo/man-power) vs whatever Debian "based" downstream. They aren't devoting time/effort to something which is going to have a negative impact and end up a waste of however much of the projects time/efforts and resources. To end up with an inferior init and growing problems in the future with keeping with developments upstream of them. In other words it'd be foolish( and they know it.) The folks behind Debian gnu/Linux are not fools.

if we are measuring the merit of things by how much money is poured into them, why shouldnt we just use windows?

If they (Debian project) or other actually qualified parties start squawking, I'll know I have real reason for concern. Avg nixer and gnu/Linux users nowadays in particular, gimme a break, were booting gnu/Linux with an init you had no clue about or had any reason to care was even there forever. Which yeppers was developed and maintained by folks ya don't even know too. Their time, skills, effort and any cash involved all due to them. Next up we have the Wayland vs Xorg thing oncoming too. Not even going to bother typing too much about that or my personal views/plans regarding this next upstream WHAMO. :D

The systemd fans always act as if sysvinit is the only other init in Linux, all their arguments are against sysvinit.

That's true because it was preferred default mostly. Are still folks who take the time, gain the know how to use others. Head_on_a_stick put up one such how-to on runit. Some of these no doubt even have continued valid usecases, like runit or whatever on mobile, where disk space, system overhead etc might be key factors in what they have planned. Even if now the avg cheapie mobile devices still come with ample resources/muscle. Seen MANY the kiddie typing on a smartphone which were easily 100's of times the hardware specs and processing power vs my first desktop computer. Those types (dev's with some special proj)don't waste time even participating in anti-pro/X-init discussion. They learn what they need to do, to get things working the way they wish and get on with life.

A hardcore sys-admin even with production systems can or will be familiar enough with these things to implement an uber stripped down or custom tweaked series of init scripts (or units)for a given systems init, though somewhat familiar not devoting that amount of time to system tweaking personally. Again ... those people are highly unlikely to waste time debating. In particular when many of the participants don't even know or vaguely know what an init is/does. What sparked this stupid thread, was seeing how adamantly AntiX appears to be about it's view of init's. Pleased to see MX went another way, though haven't yet downloaded it's iso, am going to now and learning about this gives me less motivation to mess with AntiX again.

jeffreyC wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:52 pm The systemd fans always act as if sysvinit is the only other init in Linux, all their arguments are against sysvinit.

they dont get that the merit of using it is not fixing what isnt broken.

when some less abhorrent alternative comes along-- one that isnt hellbent on "owning" the ecosystem, theyll switch just as soon as the merits of switching outweigh the costs and work required. but systemd according to its fans is "just better" and that means you should "just use it." pay attention to the advantages, ignore the costs. isnt that what used car salesmen always want you to do?

i mean what kind of country bumpkin do you have to be to ignore these AWESOME 21st century features? what pulls your data bus, a horse? and so on...

if we really accept such sophomoric arguments as to which operating system components we should use, who can wait until the day when some other company comes along with a new system fad and expects the systemd fans to change to "the latest and greatest." of course they will, right? theyll drop good old systemd in a shot, the very moment its obsolete. because thats what all the cool people do...

Personally have and planning on continuing investing effort in learning how to effectively tweak systemd, what can be done to control or optimize it for a given thing, esp in the context of desktop gnu/Linux. Am sure there are already projects aimed at converting SysV scripts into uniform systemd service unit's etc. The less hangover from SysV on a system, the happier I'll likely be. The more stable a given OS is going to run. Though stability isn't so much a concern regardless of a given init. Noted that's likely to change. You see Stevo which is a very proficient nixer in my view saying hey, I can't boot kernel v 5.x without using systemd as init. Yep, for the people who really matter, the one's which do mostly all the development and heavy lifting upstream, systemd is gnu/Linux's new init and they are going to act and design accordingly.

Those whose views differ are free to take whatever open source code they can get hands on and try to do something else with all of it. Can and certainly are free to go against upstream. We all know how much fun it is many times swimming against the current, swimming upstream eh ? Just ask some salmon, they do it, then die when they reach their destination.

PS, Painfully clearly for almost all of these people saying "we" should do this and that, what they really mean is someone who knows, actually has even a tiny bit of the skills needed and/or is also willing to pay for it and volunteer their time/effort should do it for them. They want something, even if they generally have no clue what's going on.

anixer wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:52 pm You see Stevo which is a very proficient nixer in my view saying hey, I can't boot kernel v 5.x without using systemd as init. Yep, for the people who really matter, the one's which do mostly all the development and heavy lifting upstream, systemd is gnu/Linux's new init and they are going to act and design accordingly.

Are you sure Stevo said that? I won't speak for him, but I'm pretty sure he is running or did run a 5.X kernel with SysVinit.
I don't think I've ever seen him really push one way or another either.

anixer wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:52 pm Those whose views differ are free to take whatever open source code they can get hands on and try to do something else with all of it. Can and certainly are free to go against upstream. We all know how much fun it is many times swimming against the current, swimming upstream eh ? Just ask some salmon, they do it, then die when they reach their destination.

Seeming how humans and plenty of animals survive on those silly Salmon and have for for a very long time and will continue to do so unless WE FORCE them into extinction... I don't think that is a good analogy. I highly doubt Bears (but can't speak for them), any of them are like "those stupid Salmon... they need to stop swimming upstream and just go with the flow".

Per wikipedia:

The salmon has long been at the heart of the culture and livelihood of coastal dwellers, which can be traced as far back as 5,000 years when archeologists discovered Nisqually tribes remnants.[104] The original distribution of the Genus Oncorhynchus covered the Pacific Rim coastline.[105] History shows salmon used tributaries, rivers and estuaries without regard to jurisdiction for 18–22 million years.

anticapitalista wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:42 pm There are plenty of systemd distros out there ... enjoy. antiX will not be one of them.

Where do I press "Like?"
Just kidding, but that's my sentiment too.

I run MX part time, on my laptop and another box, as well as in a VirtualBox VM (this latter just for fun). I also try to keep up with AntiX. I never boot using systemd.

May main work is done in Gentoo on a desktop and server which I've been using for 15 years, upgrading parts along the way. My systems are systemd-free and pulse-audio free. I don't have any problems and I don't anticipate any problems. Linux is a big and deep ecosystem.

My mom used to say, "If everyone else jumps off a bridge, are you going to jump off a bridge too?"

Thing from Stevo ( or as I think of the guy Stevep. ) is from a recent thread in this forum, where he's saying as much. Overall ... really don't care, mentioned hey, people are free to do whatever pleases them, learn as much or little about things they have whatever amount of interest in etc etc. No skin offa my anything, either way. Again ... don't have any need, nor any want of anyone to make configuration and application/util selection, theming choice, come out with a cool logo or name for it. It's Debian ... I do and shall probably forever run pure Debian gnu/nix myself. What I do to it could constitute a "distro", not bothering with all that, likely never will. Just cause I've fiddle with, tweaked and reconfigured stuff, doesn't change that's it's still Debian. MX and AntiX are by no means any faster, lighter, more stable, secure vs what I config myself. Fact is in many ways much less so in those metrics.

If I put this OS config onto a very high-spec system, after doing some adjustments/optimizations to acct for the new hardware. I'd have to put a warning label on the thing.

WARNING, high performance operating system installed. You may experience feelings of dizziness, disorientation and vertigo while performing normal computing functions on this system. It's unlikely you have a concussion or brain tumor, though if you have any reason to believe otherwise, consult a medical professional. Anyway ... buckle your seat-belt, this OS FRIGGIN BLAZES !!!

If you get woozy, spill a beverage on or drop your equipment ie: a laptop computer, fall out of your chair because apps and webpgs are so responsive or load too fast (on a good network connection) sustaining actual physical injury, or damage to hardware, Xyz-OS takes no responsibility, this is a gnu/Linux based operating system and comes with no warranty, express or implied according to all limitations of applicable law. Use at your own risk.

Point was just to state my views, done that, time to shut it as it's just beating of the dead horse and those youtube movies still are not watching themselves or at least if they are not providing me any enjoyment. :D

figueroa wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:25 pm May main work is done in Gentoo on a desktop and server which I've been using for 15 years, upgrading parts along the way.

Salmon still have you beat, they been swimming upstream for millions of years, but I have faith you can catch up to them.

@figueroa,
+1

Richard wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:41 pm @figueroa,
+1

+1 the +1

The Salmon need all the help they can get at this point.

side point: salmon dont swim upstream to be different, they swim upstream because thats where they mate.

SwampRabbit wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:39 pm Salmon still have you beat, they been swimming upstream for millions of years, but I have faith you can catch up to them.

But, I'm having a hard time changing my personal habits. However, I am thinking to migrate desktop users at a small private school where I administer systems to MX. They've been using Linux Mint and they are happy with it but, under the hood, Mint is a mess.

figueroa wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:49 pm But, I'm having a hard time changing my personal habits. However, I am thinking to migrate desktop users at a small private school where I administer systems to MX. They've been using Linux Mint and they are happy with it but, under the hood, Mint is a mess.

That sounds great!

Very much something like a Salmon would do, good for you boss.

freemedia2018 wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:49 pm side point: salmon dont swim upstream to be different, they swim upstream because thats where they mate.

freemedia this isn't a thread specifically tied to facts, it's for "Random guy thoughts".

SwampRabbit wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:59 pmthis isn't a thread specifically tied to facts, it's for "Random guy thoughts".

android has a "move app to sdcard" feature, maybe mx could have that.

Also, pointless observation cont:

Which is not to take away from the time/effort etc which Debian "based" put into a given distro. Clearly MX takes pains and does much which isn't going to come with Debian out-of-box. Only ever 1 time messed with a default install of Debian gnu/Nix, it was an accident, I'd hit the wrong thing in the netinstall and wound up with Debian + xfce, played with it for all of 2mins, rebooted, formatted that partition and proceeded to get what I'd been wanting in the first place. Many "based" on distro's don't do as much or include the cool things I'm hearing about MX either. They don't put in the time or effort. So yeah, plenty of kickbutt distro's floating around. Do like some task specific one's ie: Kali for penn testing etc are others which are specialized or niche specific and setup for endusers with that purpose in mind.

Personally comes to something like Kali, I'd still just install and setup the same software etc they use onto my own base install or a clone of my OS, setup as I prefer. At this point much of what an avg user might consider a feature or a bonus. I consider bloat, a waste of system resources and added overhead and are things which get in the way of how I use my computer and what I think is best configuration for speed, performance etc.

People's choices and preferences, are just that, their own tastes. According to their level of knowledge, skills and experience. It's open source and gnu/Linux afterall. :) May actually go ahead and explore some of what I'd babbled about above. It's getting harder and harder to find any meaningful tweaks now. Without going mucho deeper and investing considerably more time in learning and applying whatever. All the low hanging fruit was picked years n years ago pretty much.

Were there similar debates when PulseAudio came out and virtually replaced ALSA?

^ Absolutely, seen plenty of folks, gnu/Linux users who hate pulse, will do whatever is necessary to remove it from the OS's they use. I've always liked it, never had any problems with and don't quite get their stance on the matter but meh, it's Nix, each person is free to do whatever they please. Even if that means causing themselves problems, performance issues, odd borkage etc etc. Though also feel compelled to call it as I see it(or know it too.) Already see some issues creeping in on people here, which believe honestly could be attributed to choice of init. That's going to get worse as upstream puts more effort into shifting development and support to systemd too.

In another thread mentioned some applications, are set up for higher kernel timer interrupt freqs and are going to perform better (as intended) with a preemptive kernel and higher freq. The things opted for in a general default kernel's config could cause issues, weird graphics effect, strange audio problems etc when dealing with those things. However many, even some very experienced and reasonably proficient nixers, aren't going to think about init or stock kernel configs being involved or turning out to being a major contributor to such oddities. There are other negatives and downsides in my view to hanging onto SysV but I've burned myself out on this topic. I tried to point things out, whoever wishes can do so, whoever doesn't, great.

Artim wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:34 am Were there similar debates when PulseAudio came out and virtually replaced ALSA?

ive never had an audio problem that didnt involve a missing driver or killing pa.

as in killing it helped. its my first advice to anybody having audio problems, only now its tied to several browsers, which sucks. it is an abomination, but apparently it works for some people. i never had problems with alsa. ive literally ripped speakers out over pa. its even worse than systemd.

Dang it now that I've mentioned it, kinda feel obliged to elaborate. Someone saying poweroff reboots their system instead of shutting it down. Looks like this person has a newer system, newer hardware in gnu/Linux Debian stable "based" often means a newer kernel, newer firmware packages, microcode are advised. In some cases applying upgrades to the uefi/bios can help too. As the people at kernel.org develop the kernel, they add support for newer hardware etc as it becomes available, older versions could very well not be up to supporting whichever hardware as well, at all or properly. Thus someone can try newer, read the kernel release notes etc.

Though why I'm saying it could be init related, yep ... systemd does more than just an init, including some power and device management. In newer Debian the old commands are already symlinked to systemd. ie: check with, ah I've already babbled about this, see that junk about it for further info on this nonsense. I pitched in the towel on Bunsenlabs and it's community for various reasons. While still like many nixers there regardless. Spent many years interacting with some of them in online forums. The resolution for that nixer having an issue may be what I'd already stated above. Could need some newer stuff installed on their OS's, could also be to whatever extent init related too. Either or/both too. Not my problem though.

If I'd have posted to that thread, I'd have gotten accused of being a spy for Redhat, a troll etc etc. So that nixer can find their own solution, to their own problems. If what I've stated here is what I think is relevant. Again ... any and everything about gnu/Linux is already covered, often many, many times online anyway. The days of handing people info it took me much time/effort etc to learn on a silver platter are over.

PS, with some conditions, if I like someone, they provide relevant info, show they've made an honest effort themselves etc and still need some help, hey cool, may well do my best for them. You/Artim seem to be a smart person, open minded etc, get good vibe from you. Don't mind sharing info or helping out. Just isn't anything any gnu/Linux user is obligated to do. If I don't like someone for whatever reason, I don't want to share info with them or help them out with their issues. Yeppers I'm funny like that, don't want to help those I don't like or people too lazy or ignorant to do anything to help you help them or to attempt to help themselves, shrugs.

To clarify for new users, It is the position of the Leadership Team to help users with their issues no matter how mundane.

richb wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:20 am To clarify for new users, It is the position of the Leadership Team to help users with their issues no matter how mundane.

100% it is.

Where did that quote even come from?

Oops, update ... about @Stevo, he's experiencing issues with being able to hibernate a given system w/o systemd, in kernel 5.4.x ... not boot ( my bad.) More power oddities, no worries but still wanted to clarify as in gnu/nix the details can be important or matter. I don't work for Redhat folks, nobody pays me to come to xyz-distro's forums and try to trick anyone into using whichever piece of software in preference to any others. Junk I'm babbling about here is only honest effort to get discussion started on a topic, that's it. Also noted yep, have/will devote effort to learning about systemd, what I can do as a desktop nixer to optimize or control the thing. I don't have an "I <heart> systemd" coffee mug or t-shirt. Learning about it is for my own sake, cause like it or not, it's here to stay and has to be dealt with to whatever extent.

Upstream doesn't stop and say, hey random anixer dude, what do you think we should do about init in gnu/Linux ? Errrrrr, I don't friggin know, if Redhat and similar ever did waste their time asking me, we'd all be in real trouble if they were dumb enough to have to do that. You folks would be begging for systemd then. :D

@ForWIW, funny fricken icon, the guy with a bag on head. I want one like that, only with the person having a bunch of tinfoil wrapped around their head. Would be the perfect forum icon to use in any of these types of threads, anything systemd related, any of the topics which trigger the Corp space aliens are trying to take over my personal computer type threads. < Only with a roll of tinfoil wrapped around the face/head. You'll never take my computer alive, ya corp alien bastids !!!

Snagged from another thread and relocated here. Really at this pt, sick of the word systemd right now. :D It's my own post, so hope that's okay.

<Pointless 2 cents>

Systemd and assoc packages I tend to keep updated on anything Debian gnu/Linux stable. Very least via backports after some digging around, often enough take it a step further and pin it or etc from unstable. This thread sparked curiosity so went ahead and installed 244-3 from unstable. Forever now been mentioning with something like the init I do want newer versions of it. Easy enough to do for whomever wants to learn about it and take any precautions, any risks or whatever else associated with such. Though yeah I want newer of it, want whatever fixes, whatever improvements or added features newer versions bring as the thing gets developed.

Of course as with anything, newer doesn't guarantee better, can introduce issues and bugs not found in earlier versions too. Yeppers known bugs in newer versions tend to have been squashed. Though in general for something like my OS's init packages I want newish. So just went ahead and installed 244-3 to a Stretch install and yeppers, things are running fine, can always downgrade it if necessary blahblah. As for systemd-shim, BAD IDEA in my view, in general anyway but per usual really don't care what other nixers do to/with their software anyway. Would have to invest time and effort into looking over how/what a given shim type thingy is even doing. The people assoc with the project too. In general installing dummy packages etc to attempt to trick other software into having it's depends satisfied is certainly to be viewed as a dirty hack. Though done competently, by someone with the know how, can obviously work too. :)

</pointless 2 cents.>

Lmao, yeah, yeah, yeah I'm a troll and/or bot from upstream. YOU PEEPS WILL USE SYSTEMD ... AND YOU'LL BE GRATEFUL FOR THE PRIVILEGE !!!! Resistance is futile, we did not travel light years to take over your personal computers for nuttin buddy ! OBEY !!!! :P

^ Hey appreciate the post. Much of that not wanting to elaborate on, comes to pulse/audio again, it's never caused me a single issue anyway. So I didn't waste any time swimming against the current/upstream. Do occasionally look over the alternatives and if pressed could no doubt figure out how to set them up. Doesn't matter if XYZ browser has it's heart set on pulse, there are effective work-arounds when the situation is understood well enough. I'm not doing it, it's just another example of people resisting something w/o any real degree of understanding anyway.

Yeppers, do like mpv just in general. Cool piece of software, it's open source and gnu/Linux, so cool software is not a problem, errrr unless you bother listening to some of the many clueless types, they'll gripe all dy long about oh, there's too many choices, oh whaaaaa, do "we" (whoever this we thing is they refer to.) really need 30 file-managers, windows manager, desktops, text-editors add endless stupid stuff here. For what gives, I'm just in general far less tolerant of people, folks who get to use AWESOME software, zero cost, never really bother learning much about it either but constantly want to argue or whine about it, debate with people who have spent considerable time/effort/energy so I(they) do know what's what. Yep ... you're just a troll, or blahblahblah. whatever nonsense folks with nothing valid, no knowledge, skill or experience to add to anything tend to blather on about. So yeppers, tend to get harsh with folks much more quickly than in times past. Also have very lil hesitation in liberal use of a forums ignore feature. :D Seen xyz-type person many times before, know they're only going to annoy me and get on my nerves, better error on the side of caution. IGNORE, add to foe, yep ... confirm. It's shoot/ignore first, ask questions later now for me.

Anyway, stupid rant, thanks for posting ForWIW. Do agree with much of what you'd pointed out in that post. It's good to see people who think outside the box, sheesh nowadays it's good to see some people still think at all. :)

^ Hey fellow nixer, that is awesome, you're my kind of peeps. No worries on off-topic in 9 or so years of gnu/Nix, many the forum, almost never, EVER seen a single thread about anything that doesn't jump the tracks really quickly and go sailing off into general discussion about whatever else. :D Sometimes spent(have spent) so much time in forums, to the point I/someone may need to stop and say hey, I might have a problem here. May need a gnu/Nix forum addiction ... a 12 step program or something.

Don't mind sharing things I've learned at all. It's who with, under what circumstances though. I retain the right to disallow/refuse service to whomever, for whatever reasons. No shirt(no basic info), no shoes/common sense ... no service or sharing with those types of people. You're surely very familiar with what I'm talking-typing about, help vamps, clueless people who think they know everything. Since they already know everything, no reason to bother learning, no need for experience etc. Anyway ... now I'm ranting in an offtopic fashion, in a thread in which I'd been pointlessly ranting about systemd. LOL ... oh well, sue me. :D

Either way ForWIW, thanks for your insights/input in this thread. Is appreciated for real.

Ah ... supposed to help anyone, any circumstances, that's the admin's policy, what about the faqs, the notice saying "READ THIS", provide hardware/software info with posts in BOLD ? Lol ... mostly being a dork but common courtesy and decency isn't something it's outrageous to expect and what's the point in having and advertising a common accepted code of conduct and rules if nobody bothers adhering to them, nobody bothers enforcing them ? You reward someone for acting in a craptastic and bs-manner, it's only reinforcing that type of unacceptable behavior. It will have an impact long term on a given community too. While hey, actually this forum is mature in that yep, post info when asking for help is front and center. People see it no doubt, they just don't bother reading it or following what's advised.

That also hurts them as endusers in the long run, shrugs. Anyway, how about this, or posting a link to the read me and forum faqs ? The Debian or any MX wiki ? Is that considered huggy, helpy and politically correcty enough ?

No worries, mostly just wanted to post that link to LMGTFY = let me google that for you. That never gets old or ceases being funny as hades. :D

As for systemd-shim, BAD IDEA in my view, in general anyway but [blahblahblah]
Would have to invest time and effort into looking over how/what a given shim type thingy is even doing. The people assoc with the project too.

Earlier in the topic, someone has already provide a link to the source code.
If you are interested in listening (learning) rather than just talktaktalking, follow the provided link. Go, read through (skim) the code. Yeppers, I respect that you self-identify as being a "random guy", not a coder, but the entire code of the "shim" component is a quick read ~~ tip: jump straight to the /src page. Everything above or outside that project subdirectory is just wrapping paper (packaging and installation).
.
My takaway, after reading the code was:
Dang, it's amazingly small, and the shimming solution is so simple that I'm embarrassed that I wasn't able to envision how to accomplish it. Holy crow, after so much handwringing across distros throughout the linux community... when MX Linux stepped up an posted a $$$ bounty, thankfully someone smarter than me was motivated to, lickety-split, craft a shimming solution. SomeONE, one person coded a working solution (not "people assoc blablah" as you have, ignorantly, implied). I'll suggest that you should now "invest time and effort into looking over" the shoulders of all the self-proclaimed geniuses, the upstream gatekeepers, who had collectively failed to achieve a workable solution.

In general installing dummy packages etc to attempt to trick other software into having it's depends satisfied is certainly to be viewed as a dirty hack. Though done competently, by someone with the know how, can obviously work too. :)
let's just overlook the talkin' out both sides yer mouth and tack on a smiley part, eh

Doggie has no idea what it's yipping about but it sure does love to yip.
Bullpuckey. And the horse you rode in on.

I don't need to reach very far to grab a case in point:

topic, dated Dec 4, 2019:[SOLVED] Libreoffice does depend on firefox – how to remove firefox
takeaway points:
-- is not a "dirty hack". In fact, debian provides a utility to facilitate this task.
-- is not reserved for use by "someone(s) with the know how"

Topic closed, IT has run its course.