Random guys thoughts on the future of AntiX/MX gnu/Linux.

[anixer]

Just some thoughts on something mentioned in another thread, specifically @anticapitalista, seen you(him) around in MANY forums over the years, for a long time didn't know you were closely associated with AntiX. Though of course this is a free for all and all are welcome etc. Get the sinking feeling it's already obvious what the community sentiment is going to be but still it's a forum, so discussion is encouraged by all, on any relevant subject.

Some background on me .. started with Linux Mint 10, almost started with #! (Crunchbang) but the "may make your computer go crunch and bang" thing put me off for awhile. For me progression over the last almost 9yrs went like this ... LM10 4-5wks, #! 6 months or so, then minimal Debian netinstall from there onwards and that's never changing now. What this has to do with anything ? Errrrr, mentioned don't doubt BL (Bunsenlabs) is a solid Debian stable based distro regardless but when it comes to AntiX am hoping the people behind it have a change of heart on their stance on systemd. Have installed AntiX several times over the years, it's always been a great solid distro, though never used it for any length of time either. Still it fought it's way through the ranks honestly on it's own merits and the skills of the people behind the distro. As an ultra light gnu/Nix distro that'll blaze along great on low or high-spec systems. Earned it's place, earned it's userbase, no doubt learned many valuable lessons and gained experience and a wider skill-set as things went along, whereas BL inherited much of it from Corenominal's generosity in endorsing it and redirecting traffic from #! to them. Don't get me wrong wish BL success too.

Holding onto the past (SysV)is only sure to have a negative impact on a cool and useful distro like AntiX. For many, MANY reasons, many devs apparently aren't even bothering to ship init scripts for things anymore, Debian is NOT going to devote any major effort to support alternative init's either. Systemd is going to receive the lion's share of attention, energy and focus. As will upstream of them too. As things move forward it's going to become more apparent it's not a worthwhile endeavor to hang onto the past (an inferior init). What transfer init scripts from versions prior to systemd to support SysV ? Write them yourselves ? Can see all manner of odd borkage beginning to creep in on the distro's users as upstream further commits to moving forward with systemd. Just a general expression of encouragement to jump on the right horse now. Don't want to see a kickbutt distro crash and burn, or get marginalized, rather than hopefully gathering more support and a larger userbase. Haven't studied the history of MX as of yet, so not really sure about it. Only that it's getting PLENTY of good reviews.

ie: Devuan ... claim to fame forking Debian and systemd free, yeah right, people endlessly gripe about how old things in Debian stable are already, so what ? Getting a distro that's a stable release behind latest Debian stable and still misses out on all the benefits systemd brings ? No thanks, if were going to bother with such nonsense personally I'd just grab the archived EOL = end of life Debian releases and software before systemd came on the scene and use those. Not like that software stops working great, just because it's no longer supported but who wants to miss out on future developments and features ? Even though yeah, could run such a system almost indefinitely. Personally looking forward to a fully systemd based OS, no init scripts needing backwards compatibility at all (everything managed by uniform unit files), at least as few init scripts as possible.

Just a hope that AntiX and MX consider things fully and go from there. Though DANG SURE want to see AntiX stay on the scene and hopefully keep moving up in popularity. If I hadn't gone with #! back then, very likely could've been AntiX. Have much respect for the people behind the distro, their skills and tastes in configuring gnu/Linux. Also clearly MX has a BUNCH of kickbutt things to offer desktop nixers too. Just the thoughts/opinions of a random nixer. Not my call or decision(s) to make.

Have a good zombie movie paused on youtube but either way it goes still wish all the distro's mentioned in this babble (Antix, MX and Bunsenlabs future success.)

[manyroads]

I think we're on the same page.

Just as an example... I bought a new Dell laptop; super fast by my standards; Ubuntu certified because I check such things. On this laptop, I absolutely have to run with a systemd OS in order to make the laptop fan quiet down and not sound like my desk is taking off for a flight. With manjaro (I used it for more than 5 years) the pc is quiet & fast. Without a systemd native distro on the laptop, it literally screams. My dad who is nearly 91 an nearly deaf... he can hear the fan. As with everything in life, things move on. We can be be opposed to a change, but we can't deny its existence. And, over time we all need to accommodate the changes or be left behind.

[anticapitalista]

There are plenty of systemd distros out there ... enjoy. antiX will not be one of them.

[andyprough]

ie: Devuan ... claim to fame forking Debian and systemd free, yeah right, people endlessly gripe about how old things in Debian stable are already, so what ? Getting a distro that's a stable release behind latest Debian stable and still misses out on all the benefits systemd brings ?

This is the typical argument I see in favor of turning distros into systemd-only affairs: that only really Devuan works on any alternate init system.

Which is silly. Distrowatch lists a hundred "non-systemd" distros, including a bunch of real heavyweight communities. Slackware and Gentoo - you don't get much more established than that.

And systemd already runs great on MX, and you have the option right there in the grub menu.

[anixer]

Hey, no worries ... though Slackware and Gentoo work fundamentally differently than majority of gnu/Linux for desktop users. Yes they know what they're doing ( I mean their users actually tend to really know what they doing/talking about.) Avg Ubuntu users ? Nope. Such distro's are a tiny minority of course. Don't mind compiling from source etc etc. MANY differences, in many ways compared to overall desktop Nixsphere. From what I understand that's just the way Slackware works and as for Gentoo (so does Slackware), they expect people to know and use whatever pleases them. Used Devuan as example because view it as a joke, HEY WE'RE FORKING DEBIAN, gimme a break, Debian has decades of actual experience and folks who again actually know wth they're doing/talking about. Devuan isn't a fork, it's just another "based" on, with people who will never have the merest fraction of knowledge, skills and experience compared to those behind the Debian gnu/Nix project. It's insulting, is to me personally anyway. Not bothering saying more beyond that about them/it.

Bottom line in my view obviously systemd is the future init of gnu/Linux, keeping around an outdated, inferior patch work of an init(sysv) is not going to work in the best interests of it's users and the distro's. Doing neither any favors and is bound to become a real issue before too long. A dummy package named systemd which sends everything it can to /dev/null etc blahblah, sometimes referred to as a shim is not a solution for what's bound to be coming. Trying to trick other things into thinking systemd(their dependencies) are satisfied is a dirty hack.

Redhat(IBM)is not trying to destroy gnu/Linux, they are actually trying to improve it cause they have large amounts of ca$h riding on it. If the things top world tech experts settle on doesn't quite fit the tastes/preferences of folks who don't even know what an init is but don't like change, yeah am sure those folks care in the slightest user boogiewoogie using it for free somewhere doesn't quite agree with the choices they're making. Keeping an inferior init and doing whatever is involved to support it isn't doing much for "diversity" it's keeping/using an inferior init and holding onto the past in a situation that's sure to come at a cost and have a negative impact.

Hey is good to hear about MX, it's obvious the people behind it are good techies, are trying to consider many angles in decisions they make. Which is great, just saying think people should choose their battles, fighting against something which actually makes things better, even if someone manages to keep the thing going is a losing battle, in a losing war.

Funny analogy

Here take this new car free, it's got overdrive, leather seats.

No no no my battered yugo gets me around just fine. It's got headlights, windshield wipers, everything I need. YOU'LL NEVER FORCE ME to drive that newer better evil POS !!! AHHHHHH ! So what if it's leaking oil, tires are bare and smokes like a chimney going down the road. Baby still gots lotsa miles on it !!! :P

[Jerry3904]

Hey is good to hear about MX, it's obvious the people behind it are good techies, are trying to consider many angles in decisions they make. Which is great, just saying think people should choose their battles, fighting against something which actually makes things better, even if someone manages to keep the thing going is a losing battle, in a losing war.

You're not computing: MX is not fighting systemd. We have our personal preference in the current situation, but make it ridiculously easy for users to boot into systemd. No fight there to be seen, just a choice of default.

I myself have just bought a new Lenovo desktop (IdeaCentre 510A) for work that today dropped 20% in price, at least here in the USA. I may well end up booting into systemd if it improves performance, won't bother me a stitch.

[andyprough]

Funny analogy

Here take this new car free, it's got overdrive, leather seats.

No no no my battered yugo gets me around just fine. It's got headlights, windshield wipers, everything I need. YOU'LL NEVER FORCE ME to drive that newer better evil POS !!! AHHHHHH ! So what if it's leaking oil, tires are bare and smokes like a chimney going down the road. Baby still gots lotsa miles on it !!! :P

I find that neither funny nor analogous to anything.

[anixer]

@Jerry3904 that's cool and good, again ... shows maturity, hedging of bets etc. Whereas in the other thread referenced anticapitalista was saying for AntiX stuff like "never will be systemd", that's what sparked this thread. I LIKE ANTIX, shrugs. Not really up to speed and haven't tried MX as yet. For me what I config myself out of pure Debian is way I'm going. Will never bother with an out-of-box distro again ... ever. Though MX gets much favorable coverage and makes me curious to try it out.

@andyprough, might not amuse you but that's exactly what people clinging to an outdated and now inferior init are doing, literally. That's bottom line reality, hard fact based, not subject to interpretation for anyone who bothers realistically looking at the situation. Though here's another.

Take these steak and eggs (if you want, for free.)

Nope, no ... no, no. This old bologna sandwich is very filling and highly nutritional, NO WAY ! KEEP YOUR STINKING STEAK !!! I'll die before I eat that wretched thing ! You, you, you ... space alien corporate overlords from the ZOG dimension !!!

Errrrr ... great enjoy the bologna dude. :)

Really doesn't matter anyway, folks in control and in the know are going to do as they deem best, whatever peeps want to use or cling on to, I don't have reason to give a whit. Though mentioned do like AntiX either way.

[anticapitalista]

I'll repeat : There are plenty of systemd distros out there ... enjoy. antiX will not be one of them.
What MX Linux decides to do is up to them.

[anixer]

^Hey hiya fellow nixer. You and any others of note behind AntiX was who I was trying to reach. Either way like AntiX ( and you dude, seen you many places over the years.) Overall it's not my call obviously. Still downloaded latest AntiX and will be dorking with it, if only for old times sake. Last time I played with AntiX was like a year ago, sitting in hospital after leg surgery. Ah no matter, might not ( or never ) come stock but once it gets to whichever nixers hands, at least this nixers hands, SysV is getting canned and systemd installed very quickly. Out of personal interest will do some comparison, check stats etc blahblah. Won't be sharing those as that would seem to be going against the wishes of a distro I like. Still personally going to look and see. :)