MX Linux Forum

Administrator comment:
This contest is purely thought up by the user and has no bearing whatsoever on the art decisions made by the MX Team.

Logo, icons and pictures.
I want more of it all but I don't know where to find it or where to put it.

Do you.?

Maybe we can help each other bringing things to order and bit by bit obtain the overview we need to determine what we really miss and maybe have to produce in an all for fun contest.?


I want more:


Logos for Panel


Logos for Whisker menu


Boot up pictures


Background/wallpaper pictures


And I want it all to be so free that anyone can take any of it and change it and manipulate it without being blamed.
What specific links can be recommended.?

And if we find or make the things we want in what user folders do we put them.?


Feel welcome to knock yourself out with ideas and input. If the subject gets too messy we can always make another follow up.

/usr/share/backgrounds/

I have:
MX_Tangram.png

I played with it and this is one of the results:

(Edit: sorry, picture is taken away because I got unsure about some possible copyright violation.)


Further I used sudo to copy the new background picture back into the /usr/share/backgrounds/ folder.

I guess that part is how it is supposed to be.

Or do we sometime in the future, if it is not too complicated to build, also want a default user folder where MX automatically looks for user background pictures.?

I am afraid the boot up picture, or is it a movie of a kind, will be much harder to hack.

We have some fine choices in the MX tool for boot options but if the user wants to use her own art I don't know.

I guess it takes more than putting a picture in a folder.
/boot/grub/themes/Gradient_Glow_Blue/


Any ideas.?

Have you ever changed your Panel icon for the Whisker menu.
If so what is the name of the folder you put your extra Whisker icons.?
I guess I am looking for some more user folder structure conventions.
Do they already exist or do we have the will to create them.?

In the English version there is a default empty user folder named "Templates".. right.?
Nobody says that folder has to remain empty... right.?
The community could add a Read_me file and sub folders for all this icon and wallpaper fun and more goodies.
I could use some templates for sure, and I also think they will be important if ordinary users shall have a fair chance in a contest.
I also consider it a gain to bring more personal configuration away from the sudo zone and put it at places where it stays with the users backup.
What do you say.?

Wonder what this fun can be used for:

Jakob77 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:57 pm In this folder:

/usr/share/backgrounds/

I have:
MX_Tangram.png

I played with it and this is one of the results:

MX_Tangram-mod1a.png


Further I used sudo to copy the new background picture back into the /usr/share/backgrounds/ folder.

I guess that part is how it is supposed to be.

Or do we sometime in the future, if it is not too complicated to build, also want a default user folder where MX automatically looks for user background pictures.?

So, in the MX Desktop app, you can set to any area. Once you make a change, it remembers. (mine is set to /home/me/pictures/backgrounds where I left it last.)

Jakob77 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:26 am I am afraid the boot up picture, or is it a movie of a kind, will be much harder to hack.

We have some fine choices in the MX tool for boot options but if the user wants to use her own art I don't know.

I guess it takes more than putting a picture in a folder.
/boot/grub/themes/Gradient_Glow_Blue/


Seniorboot-a2.png


Any ideas.?

There are two parts to the 'startup' .
Part 1 = grub animation
Part 2 = Plymouth animation

You can find my instructions, with the last animation graphic we were working on here:
https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php ... 96#p712996

Jakob77 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:41 pm Have you ever changed your Panel icon for the Whisker menu.
If so what is the name of the folder you put your extra Whisker icons.?
I guess I am looking for some more user folder structure conventions.
Do they already exist or do we have the will to create them.?

In the English version there is a default empty user folder named "Templates".. right.?
Nobody says that folder has to remain empty... right.?
The community could add a Read_me file and sub folders for all this icon and wallpaper fun and more goodies.
I could use some templates for sure, and I also think they will be important if ordinary users shall have a fair chance in a contest.
I also consider it a gain to bring more personal configuration away from the sudo zone and put it at places where it stays with the users backup.
What do you say.?

Wonder what this fun can be used for:
MX_Whisk-deep-blue-v4c.png

My Templates folder contains templates that I have made for libre office and a few other applications. ( ie libre and the other applications put them there - didnt specifically.)

CharlesV

Thank you for your response.

I guess it might take a hard pull to make you move your backgrounds to the Templates folder.
I can also see it belongs with pictures. It is more because I want to separate configuration stuff.

What about your icons then, where do you keep them.?

About the boot up it hurts a bit to mess with the fine work and replace it with just a picture.
If it shall be good it will likely also need work from the developers to add the option.
But it seems so near I still hope they will do it some day.

Jakob77 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:46 pm CharlesV

Thank you for your response.

I guess it might take a hard pull to make you move your backgrounds to the Templates folder.
I can also see it belongs with pictures. It is more because I want to separate configuration stuff.

What about your icons then, where do you keep them.?

About the boot up it hurts a bit to mess with the fine work and replace it with just a picture.
If it shall be good it will likely also need work from the developers to add the option.
But it seems so near I still hope they will do it some day.
Senior-boot-b1.png

All of the grub, plymouth opening / shutdown and login wallpapers are configurable. The biggest problem that I can see is that it all requires a little programming or config at a minimum. A static image is quite doable and some people probably would like that too.

When I have little time, I will setup a very simple example and post it.

Thank you, great, and I see nothing urgent in it.
To me it seems like an obvious option to add to the to do list and therefore worth discussing the possible implications.
I don't want to put any pressure on the priority for our developers.

But I will soon have to ring the alarm bell because I can't come up with a good user folder name for my Whisker icon.

Let me try to put it this way:

This guy:
Linux for Seniors
https://www.youtube.com/@linuxforseniors

he uses the folder
for his private icons.

However if I want to change the Whisker icon via properties, the icon file can not be found in a hidden folder.
Does that look like an Xfce issue or MX or is .icons maybe not supposed to be compatible because another user folder is default or something else.?

On most of my machines, I create an Install folder and put all items particular to the installation there.

Usually, I if I am going to modify the system, I make a note here of what I have done. (ie so I now there to go if something goes awry. )
In many of my computers, I create in that folder the following:
- fonts
- backgrounds
- tweaks
- backup (used to plan files I want to make sure I KNOW were backed up - BEFORE tweaks.)

I would advocate that there should be an icons folder here for what you wanted to use in your system if you dont like the "normal method" .

What is wrong with the /usr/share folders, which is where MOST things go that the user does ?
( "This is the way." - of most linux systems that I have seen.)

My original Whisker icon is supposed to be here:
/usr/share/icons/

But I can't find it now.
Maybe it went away along with some themes I was playing with.
And now it takes sudo to put another one in place because Whisker can't see an icon i the default hidden .icon user folder.


It is not very satisfying but still doable, and it will all solve itself for me when I stop playing and exploring like crazy.
I am just thinking if we sometime were going to do an icon contest with 500 rookie forum users it would be better and safer to avoid the sudo zone and just stay in user folders with all the art work.

Any custom icons I create I put in /usr/share/pixmaps.
They seem to work ok from that location, always show in the 'Select an Icon' box ok etc..

I think the default Whisker icon used by MX is in /usr/local/share/icons

JmaCWQ
Okay thank you, but that is also in sudo zone.

CharlesV wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:23 pm On most of my machines, I create an Install folder and put all items particular to the installation there.

Usually, I if I am going to modify the system, I make a note here of what I have done. (ie so I now there to go if something goes awry. )
In many of my computers, I create in that folder the following:
- fonts
- backgrounds
- tweaks
- backup (used to plan files I want to make sure I KNOW were backed up - BEFORE tweaks.)

I would advocate that there should be an icons folder here for what you wanted to use in your system if you dont like the "normal method" .

And sometime one for boot up pictures.
Do you know now what specifications they will need to have.?

I might setup a sub folder in ~/bin for a few Whisker icons I actually use.

Jakob77 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:00 pm
And sometime one for boot up pictures.
Do you know now what specifications they will need to have.?

I might setup a sub folder in ~/bin for a few Whisker icons I actually use.

All depends upon your screen setting really. Your display size, your icon size etc etc.. Look at some of the icon packages and you will see that some are sized for various sizes. Some are scalable, etc. Lots of different ways to do these things, but START at the size you run your desktop at is my motto

I may be wrong, but isn't ~/.local/share the proper folder to hold personal icons, fonts, themes, etc - if you want these to be sourced by system applications?
- fonts: to be stored in the ~/.local/share/fonts/ folder
- icons: to be stored in the ~/.local/share/icons/ folder
- themes: to be stored in the ~/.local/share/themes/ folder

Any personal executables (like scripts etc) can be stored in ~/bin or in ~/.local/bin folder.

Any new entry will of course require a logout/in to take effect

CharlesV wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:32 pm

Jakob77 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:00 pm
And sometime one for boot up pictures.
Do you know now what specifications they will need to have.?

I might setup a sub folder in ~/bin for a few Whisker icons I actually use.

All depends upon your screen setting really. Your display size, your icon size etc etc.. Look at some of the icon packages and you will see that some are sized for various sizes. Some are scalable, etc. Lots of different ways to do these things, but START at the size you run your desktop at is my motto

Thank you, that makes sense.

Most of my background pictures shows 1920 x 1200

MX_Tangram.png is 1900 x 1200

Do you know how it is with copyright on art that comes with Wildflower. Can the users do what they want with it and show it in public.?
I was having fun with MX_Tangram.png doing a tribute (in my own opinion) but as I was reading more in another subforum my feet got a little cold.


ceeslans

I believe the Panel can pick up icons for Whisker and Starters from any visible user folder. :-)

ceeslans wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:53 pm I may be wrong, but isn't ~/.local/share the proper folder to hold personal icons, fonts, themes, etc - if you want these to be sourced by system applications?
- fonts: to be stored in the ~/.local/share/fonts/ folder
- icons: to be stored in the ~/.local/share/icons/ folder
- themes: to be stored in the ~/.local/share/themes/ folder

Any personal executables (like scripts etc) can be stored in ~/bin or in ~/.local/bin folder.

Any new entry will of course require a logout/in to take effect

While many applications work that way, my experience is that not all will

There are two issues with .local ( imo ) ... first, it is hidden, so unless your showing hidden files, you have to turn that on or specifically go there. And second is that not ALL applications will look for files if you put them there.

Jakob77 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:06 pm
Do you know how it is with copyright on art that comes with Wildflower. Can the users do what they want with it and show it in public.?
I was having fun with MX_Tangram.png doing a tribute (in my own opinion) but as I was reading more in another subforum my feet got a little cold.

No clue on that one.

The information is here:
/usr/share/backgrounds/mx21-wallpapers-attribution.txt
In the case of Tangram the info isYou can go to the deviantart link for more.
I suspect to distribute a modified version legally you would have to ask Amigo's permission because while it says the MX team is free to use it (with attribution) it says nothing about modifying it.

timkb4cq wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:41 pm The information is here:
/usr/share/backgrounds/mx21-wallpapers-attribution.txt
In the case of Tangram the info is

Code: Select all

MX Tangram
Creator: Amigo (forum member)
Licence: MX team free to use with attribution
https://www.deviantart.com/apiecethatspeaksof/art/MX-Tangram-889171145

You can go to the deviantart link for more.
I suspect to distribute a modified version legally you would have to ask Amigo's permission because while it says the MX team is free to use it (with attribution) it says nothing about modifying it.

Thank you very much.

Then I already know enough to stay away from making more art with that picture.

Free software with restricted pictures. It has to change, hasn't it.?

If we make a contest we can make it a condition that all the art involved has to be completely free for others to use as they please.
If not immediately then at least after a short defined time.


I can't sing but I try:


My art is your art

And your art is my art

The more art we do together, the greater we will be...

Is it the same with icons so I have to read conditions before I for instance add green and red dots to the lock icons below.?





Yes, the picture is a part of my panel. The flag is great and It works better than ever but I don't think it really looks that way.
And I am afraid some of it is about more than just icons because I can't find a way the plugin will allow me to change them.?

Always check or ask (if you cannot check) before using other people's work, yes. Goes without question.

I know the papirus & numix icons are licensed gpl-3 and I'm pretty sure all the icons we have in the repos are open source

Jakob77 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:39 am Is it the same with icons so I have to read conditions before I for instance add green and red dots to the lock icons below.?



panelicons-lockmv.jpg




Yes, the picture is a part of my panel. The flag is great and It works better than ever but I don't think it really looks that way.
And I am afraid some of it is about more than just icons because I can't find a way the plugin will allow me to change them.?

I don't think you can change those icons via the plugin, pretty sure they change when you change the icon theme, so if you wanted to add the dots but keep those particular icons, you'd have to find the icons in the theme then edit them accordingly.

I also believe the 'permission' conditions apply if you change then re-distribute or share the theme/icon set/whatever.
I have modded my favourite theme and favourite icon set to suit myself over the years, and when there's an update of the OS or Xfce version etc. that breaks them, as has happened a few times recently, I spend the time to fix them so I can keep using them.
But I didn't ask for permission from the original creators as I do not redistribute or share them with others.
If I were to share etc., I would not do so without the creators permission.

Eadwine Rose

I think i will vote for a change even if it means the art work has to be done all over from scratch.
I understand the strong feelings an artist can have for his own work, but in my opinion it is a wrong way to think and I believe these selfish feelings must give way to the interests of the common MX good.
We handicap the development if we make it difficult to extend or change existing art, and therefor I think it has to be as easy as possible.
With icons and pictures it means a huge pool with art stuff that is really free for the MX users to play with. And if it ends up with better results it will follow the same rules so it can just be passed on to the community and used in public without any questions.
How hard can it be.

timkb4cq wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:33 am I know the papirus & numix icons are licensed gpl-3 and I'm pretty sure all the icons we have in the repos are open source

Thank you. Do you know more about if that is giving the users the total freedom to modify and republish the icons in MX.?

I guess the mentioned Plugin is Xfce, so it is up to them to make it more flexible for new icons if needed.?

JmaCWQ wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:12 am I don't think you can change those icons via the plugin, pretty sure they change when you change the icon theme, so if you wanted to add the dots but keep those particular icons, you'd have to find the icons in the theme then edit them accordingly.

Thank you. The lock icons are not a part of the plugin but you might have a point anyway.

JmaCWQ wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:12 am I also believe the 'permission' conditions apply if you change then re-distribute or share the theme/icon set/whatever.
I have modded my favourite theme and favourite icon set to suit myself over the years, and when there's an update of the OS or Xfce version etc. that breaks them, as has happened a few times recently, I spend the time to fix them so I can keep using them.
But I didn't ask for permission from the original creators as I do not redistribute or share them with others.
If I were to share etc., I would not do so without the creators permission.

And you might say there is no problem then, but I say that is the whole problem because you will never share your art that way and I want to see it and maybe use it.

What is it a little more specifically that breaks.?

Re gpl-3
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/quick-guide-gplv3.html

The Foundations of the GPL
Nobody should be restricted by the software they use. There are four freedoms that every user should have:

the freedom to use the software for any purpose,
the freedom to change the software to suit your needs,
the freedom to share the software with your friends and neighbors, and
the freedom to share the changes you make.

In my opinion if a user is contributing artwork and not licensing it under gpl-3, it is common courtesy to ask their permission to make changes and distribute it any way. If one does not than it is between you and you conscience.

Jakob77 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:48 am Thank you. The lock icons are not a part of the plugin but you might have a point anyway.

No probs.

Jakob77 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:48 amAnd you might say there is no problem then, but I say that is the whole problem because you will never share your art that way and I want to see it and maybe use it.

What is it a little more specifically that breaks.?

Little things, transparency in places, icons not the same on the Desktop as in Folders, prelights different etc., nothing major I haven't been able to stumble across a fix for so far, touch wood

One example in the pics below, the theme I use, when I switched from MX-18.3 to MX-21 transparency around the panel icons was messed up, prelights (hover colour) was different and a few other things, Thunar's folder displays looked different, icon theme buttons in the folders etc. different.
Top pic what happened to the panel icons after switching from MX-18.3 to MX-21.
Bottom pic the icons after I 'fixed' the theme.
I think I made some of the theme's border images transparent to get it to look right.
On the bottom far left and far right, the CPU, RAM and Time are Conky's, the others are 6 separate panels.

JmaCWQ

I am thinking about just staying with the default theme and modify it only if very needed.
My theory is that strategy in the long run will provide more stability and less surprises when upgrading.
Do you have an opinion about that theory.?

richb wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:03 am Re gpl-3
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/quick-guide-gplv3.html

The Foundations of the GPL
Nobody should be restricted by the software they use. There are four freedoms that every user should have:

the freedom to use the software for any purpose,
the freedom to change the software to suit your needs,
the freedom to share the software with your friends and neighbors, and
the freedom to share the changes you make.

In my opinion if a user is contributing artwork and not licensing it under gpl-3, it is common courtesy to ask their permission to make changes and distribute it any way. If one does not than it is between you and you conscience.

Thank you very much.

When it comes to law stuff I am pretty blank but it really looks like the freedom I think the MX-users deserve.

It is not just about conscience. There is always still a risk of being flamed.

I just can't find the pool with all the stuff yet.

There is also another thing. If we imagine we get permission from all artists to put all the MX art into that pool, then it will afterwards be available to the whole world on those conditions. And maybe that is taking it a little too far in first round when the need is just total freedom to use the material for making MX icons, MX boot up pictures and MX background pictures.
It could likely also be a lot easier to get permission for just the last and an ethics council in MX to decide what more to do in the future.
It is a bit against the spirit I am trying to evoke, but if we have a pool with more freedom than others we will just give it all away so we have nothing to negotiate with in case we for instance want to share icons and pictures with another distro.
It can fast become complicated but Is it making sense somehow.?

CharlesV wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:32 pm
All depends upon your screen setting really. Your display size, your icon size etc etc.. Look at some of the icon packages and you will see that some are sized for various sizes.

Is that not one more good reason to give the users some templates.?
If we imagine a bunch of beginners are going to have fun in an art contest it will be good if the specifications they have to meet are very simple.

Jakob77 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:06 pm

CharlesV wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:32 pm
All depends upon your screen setting really. Your display size, your icon size etc etc.. Look at some of the icon packages and you will see that some are sized for various sizes.

Is that not one more good reason to give the users some templates.?
If we imagine a bunch of beginners are going to have fun in an art contest it will be good if the specifications they have to meet are very simple.

I would advocate that it is better to have REAL specifications for themes and icons from more base maintainer. Everything in icons or themes in mx that I have seen is "standard" and as such looking around one can easily find specifications for them.

If you want to learn, then a great place to start is
Freedesktop.org icon-theme-spec
https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specif ... heme-spec/

or

GNOME UI Icon spec / style
https://developer.gnome.org/hig/guideli ... icons.html

or some actual UI design
https://uxcel.com/blog/understanding-th ... -ui-design
https://careerfoundry.com/en/blog/ui-de ... n-process/

and a jillion other places on the internet that have good design discussions.


Design templates for icons and images, imo, are outside the scope of what a distro should have to define, with exception of what they require for legal and what they might hint at they are looking for or interested in looking at / including. And the personal aspect of what size a panel / icon set should for *your* taste is way out of scope. (again - imo !)

Jakob77 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:57 pm JmaCWQ

I am thinking about just staying with the default theme and modify it only if very needed.
My theory is that strategy in the long run will provide more stability and less surprises when upgrading.
Do you have an opinion about that theory.?

That's pretty much what I do except I don't use the default theme.
When a default theme is upgraded you could lose any mods you've made, to sort of get around that use a copy with it's folder renamed to something else, and renamed in the index.theme file.
I usually add a '-mymod' to the end of the names and the appearance settings show them as such.

But then if the default theme is upgraded, the renamed and modded copy doesn't get touched so once again some work could be required to get the copy of the theme you've modded up to scratch again

JmaCWQ

Thank you for your tips.

CharlesV wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:40 pm

Jakob77 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:06 pm

CharlesV wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:32 pm
All depends upon your screen setting really. Your display size, your icon size etc etc.. Look at some of the icon packages and you will see that some are sized for various sizes.

Is that not one more good reason to give the users some templates.?
If we imagine a bunch of beginners are going to have fun in an art contest it will be good if the specifications they have to meet are very simple.

I would advocate that it is better to have REAL specifications for themes and icons from more base maintainer. Everything in icons or themes in mx that I have seen is "standard" and as such looking around one can easily find specifications for them.

If you want to learn, then a great place to start is
Freedesktop.org icon-theme-spec
https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specif ... heme-spec/

or

GNOME UI Icon spec / style
https://developer.gnome.org/hig/guideli ... icons.html

or some actual UI design
https://uxcel.com/blog/understanding-th ... -ui-design
https://careerfoundry.com/en/blog/ui-de ... n-process/

and a jillion other places on the internet that have good design discussions.


Design templates for icons and images, imo, are outside the scope of what a distro should have to define, with exception of what they require for legal and what they might hint at they are looking for or interested in looking at / including. And the personal aspect of what size a panel / icon set should for *your* taste is way out of scope. (again - imo !)

I fainted but thank you.
That makes it pretty clear to me how impossible it will be to cover all icons in a single contest.

I don't have the overview to say in what corner it is best to start but I still believe I can see something can be made very simple if we put out minds to it.




For instance:




The icon for the Whisker menu can be made in a lot of different ways.

We have decided to make an icon contest about the specifications "png 64x64"


Here is a template for Gimp:

Have fun making a good icon.
The contest will run until date xx


Icon specifications and the template are made on basis of Frejas icon:
https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php ... 33#p718133

Jakob77 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:51 am JmaCWQ

Thank you for your tips.

No probs

Yes, it's Friday night, let's drink to free art groups.


I had suddenly luck and found a red lock.
There is just one problem. I want the red icon to lock.
Am I wrong.?
I can see that unlock can be dangerous and therefore red for unlock can make sense.
But in traffic red means "stop".
And on factory machines "emergency stop" is normally a red button.








I have been looking a little at mouse cursors but I am afraid they are also too complicated for an average user contest.

In general i think the mouse cursor icons are too small.

So I would like an elephant mouse cursor that can be scaled up to elephant size.

elephant with raised trunk
https://www.google.com/search?q=elephan ... 43&dpr=1.5

Any ideas about how to find it or make it happen some day.?


By the way if the thumb is bend a little more forward a thumb up can also be art object for a mouse cursor.


Never underestimate a mouse cursor.
I installed a banana that made me smile 1400 times.!

Change the yellow to red in gimp, or copy the lock bit from yellow to the red. Bam, locked red icon.

Eadwine Rose wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:13 am Change the yellow to red in gimp, or copy the lock bit from yellow to the red. Bam, locked red icon.

If it puts me in trouble, so I have to say sorry 3 times, I will ask you to say at least two of them.

Here we go:
If someone now thinks my art modification is ugly and changes it, then we have started exactly a kind of contest I am looking for.

Please do it.!

And if it happens and you make something ugly out of it, I can't do anything about It because you are just following the main rule of the contest.
Won't it be fun to see how angry you can make me by beating me with my own art.?

Do you know the game with one peace of paper and one pen that circulates between people in a group and each member is supposed to add a little.?

You mean a "Toasty Story"? Each person adds one word (with optional punctuation preceding the word), the only rule being that it's possible to create a grammatical sentence continuing from there. Hilarity ensues!

Just a note, this is not an official art topic of MX.

MODS: I wonder if it should be moved to "Chat" or somewhere else, now that the official threads are running.

Good idea.. I will move it.


Moved and topic title added "unofficial".

Clarification:
This contest is purely thought up by the user and has no bearing whatsoever on the art decisions made by the MX Team.

Great, thanks.

Jerry3904 wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:57 pm Great, thanks.

+1

The idea inspired by "Honesty" images is:
Blushing Meadow

Well, since nobody this far seems to like the ideas and I coincidentally just found out we have problems with the forum database growing too much, I think it will be okay to take it a step further and just erase the subject. A contest of the kinds I have been writing about will take up a lot of space with drafts, and I think it is wrong it takes up a lot of space from other subjects more important than art.