flatpaks for default applications

[seasoned_geek]

The vast majority of browsers counted as Chrome are really Vivaldi, Brave, etc.

Citing some reputable sources for a claim like this would be neat. I understand this is just a thread for flatpak application default usage xD, yet even in such throwaway contexts, where an assertion like that (among other things) is off topic and might seem like an easy side remark to include, actually showing where it is from and where it can be fact checked would be more credible. For some of the other things brought up here, there was at least links to things like someone's writings under a description "this enjoyable post", which was relatively quick to check out and note they were commenting on topics they didn't have good grasp on. But: the vast majority of browsers counted as Chrome aren't actually Chrome itself. Where is this coming from, and how to verify?

Most of that was while working with Intel at a Publicis (sp?) Groupe agency developing IPOS. (Intel Point of Sale) That "explore this computer" application you see running in big box stores. I did the Linux packaging because, in many EU countries it is illegal to bundle an OS with hardware so most/many computers are sold with Linux. That stat came directly from Vana at Intel. The Web kids had to test with "every" browser Intel wanted to support and that was were the stats came from. But you want some links. Look for this quote at this link.

It's a chicken-and-egg problem. Unless everyone customizes their software to recognize Vivaldi as distinct from Chrome, every Vivaldi user will be involuntarily increasing Google's dominance in the browser market. But if the official browser statistics show Vivaldi usage as minimal or nonexistent because they haven't made the effort to modify their software, why would anyone else make the special effort to modify their software to see Vivaldi as something other than Chrome?

A slightly better explanation is in this CNet article.

scroll down here and see Vivaldi claiming 3.5 million "active users." I didn't dig to see how they determine "Active users" or if that includes the Flatpak versions.

Brave, on the other hand, claims 91.5 million active users. Again, I didn't dig.

According to this 2023 article Opera has 350 million users.

Technically Opera doesn't default to Chrome but you can force it and many Web sites identify it as Chrome. That pesky string again.

Basically, every new browser using customized Chrome libraries chooses to leave the string alone due to the Chicken and egg problem.

Lastly, or close to it, you have to consider Qt WebEngine. I'm positive there is nothing tracking that use. Every phone app, embedded system, and desktop application written with Qt since version 5.x where WebEngine appeared is using Chrome libraries when a widget displaying network information is launched. This could be as basic as the user manual or tutorial video for a medical device to something far more involved. When it reaches out over the Internet to a site which gathers statistics, it looks like chrome.

Could each of these library users identify as some other browser? Yes. They will have the chicken & egg problem though.

Websites only code for a couple of browsers. If you log into Fidelity, E-trade, Ace Hardware, and many other sites with Vivaldi, Brave, or Opera you will find the Chat bots not only don't work, many times they don't display. The chat bots use the same tech as ads and the built in ad-blockers nail it. There are chat bots that don't use ad technology and by definition are more secure. Those bots work with these browsers.

I have no earthly idea how one could begin to measure the number of Qt or CEF developed applications/embedded systems are out there, connecting to the Internet, and identifying as Chrome to the automated stat gatherers. I don't believe Qt and CEF are the only ones rolling the Chrome libraries into their insert-language-here application framework library, that's just two I knew of.

I don't do Rust programming but there is Rust Headless Chrome.
PyChrome and pypeteer headless Chrome.
DotNetBrowser

Almost all, if not all, of these will identify as Google Chromium to Websites to avoid chicken and egg problem and stats collectors will show Chromium

[Nokkaelaein]

To sum up the numbers above, the majority of browsers counted as Chrome are still Chrome. And the claim was that the vast majority is something else.

[seasoned_geek]

That means more than every human (by current estimates) has a browser.

I have multiple browsers on my desktop, phone, and tablet, so I account for a lot of those browsers.

Ditto.
There are 5 running machines in this office along with others not turned on. Every Linux machine I set up for use, I install flatpak, enable flathub, then open the default browser to cut & paste Vivaldi, Brave, and Opera. Some also get LibreWolf. The "default" browser is never used again.

[b3ta]

When I get back to office and start working on this I will thieve this to create a betterbird.desktop in /usr/share/xfce4/helpers. If the forum wishes, once I get it working I can post the final results in this thread, perhaps write a tutorial?

That would be very useful, thank you.

On statistics, sadly none of my lecturers ever referred to this book, but "How To Lie With Statistics" by Darrell Huff is a brilliant, light-hearted little book on sorting fact from fiction when it comes to numbers and their misuse. You can get a copy from the Internet Archive.

Another brilliant resource is the March 1984 "Programming Pealrs" column in Communications of the ACM by Jon Bentley titled "Back of the Envelope", a copy of which I found here.

[seasoned_geek]

To sum up the numbers above, the majority of browsers counted as Chrome are still Chrome. And the claim was that the vast majority is something else.

I don't know how you can draw that conclusion, but believe what you will. INTEL (the chip maker) certainly says otherwise. I guess you don't know just how many things are made using Qt.

Ford claims 95% of all vehicles it sells are equipped with SYNC. Since 2015 that has been a Qt based system running on top of QNX OS. In the United states alone that is, on average 2 million vehicles per year. Global sales for Ford were over 6 million units in 2015. Since 2020 they've been down at the 4 million unit range due to pandemic and global economic downturn. Average age of a vehicle on the road in America is now 12.6 years.

When they open a browser in SYNC it is WebEngine which reports at Chrome.


I guess my 02 Overland, 06 Commander, and 06 Avalon are "well above average."

I haven't been keeping track of all the apps in official app stores for Android and IOS that are written using Qt mobile. When they open a browser within the app it is WebEngine which reports at chrome.

It's physically impossible to measure the number of IoT devices using Qt, mainly because most use the basically non-existent OpenSource version. Granted, most don't have a display or touchscreen, but refrigerators and other appliances do these days.

At any rate, I'm done with this conversation. It reminds me too much of the Microsoft fans claiming the OS ran on over 80% of all desktops when the Janet Reno investigation had proven roughly 40% of the motherboard sales being counted were bare hardware sales to companies assembling Netware servers. Microsoft made the vendors record a Microsoft OS sale with each purchase though no software of any kind was included in the sale.

Browser stats are gathered much the same way.

[Nokkaelaein]

I don't know how you can draw that conclusion, but believe what you will.

No, it doesn't work that way. I'm going by the numbers the companies themselves have quoted, on how many users their browsers are estimated to have, and the things you wrote/linked. It sums up nowhere near a "vast majority" of the numbers counted for Chrome usage around the world, being something else than Chrome. The way this works is, you "believe what you will", and if/when you present it as a fact and make a very bold claim, the burden of proof is on you. So, you continue believing what you will, but if you wish this to be the factual truth in the industry, you will need to present actual verifiable support for the claim that actually sums up to a "vast majority".

At any rate, I'm done with this conversation.

No such verifiable support forthcoming, then. No problem, that's fine.

(For anyone else who is interested: a large part of what this person has written above hinges on QtWebEngine being indistinguishable from Chrome by default, which isn't true. I must emphasize, even if this was true it still wouldn't make the actual claim of a vast majority true or verified. In any case, by default, QtWebEngine adds an explicit declaration of its identity to the user agent string. See examples for example here: https://whatmyuseragent.com/browser/qw/qtwebengine/5 ; in contrast, the actual Chrome browser does not include a QtWebEngine identifier like this.)