MX Linux Forum

CharlesV wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:35 pm and as another perspective... I use xfce and sysvinit exclusively and have had to do some 'tweaking' to get some software working. (including boot to systemd to install it), however I have been able to get all of those 'systemd only' software running on sysvinit - with a little coaxing :-)

Thanks - that's helpful! Since I'm not really a "tweaker", that's another data point to consider. I just don't have the time needed to learn to tweak, as my "golden years" are almost upon me, and I'd like to enjoy them with my family.

I'm beginning to think that I need to start considering giving up (most? all??) electronic devices in order to gain a measure of peace in my time left. I'm currently experiencing a major time-suck "updating" (HA!) my wife's laptop to Windows 11 - those of you who no longer depend on Redmond's evil child should be grateful!

: - )

The obvious thing to me ( ie difference of systemd vs Sysvinit) is that the issues I have encountered seem to be rather simple to fix. Yes, you have to track it down, but in my experience typically the issue is a smaller, contained fix and 'simple'.

Granted, I have not done that much with systemd - guess I will be though :-) )

And while I think the KDE system has gotten WAY better.. I found this same issue with tweaking things. Some things are very easy to tweak... but I have seen nothing that compares to tweaking xfce - literally you can do anything with it.

Eadwine Rose wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:00 pmEarlier @BV206 asked: How do you know if a program requires systemd?
Now I ask: how do you know if a program won't work with systemd?

I guess the best way is to test it and find out, if it doesn't work then try in a VM with sysvinit and compare the result. Given that systemd has been around in the Debian ecosystem since version 8 (Jessie) there has been 10 years for packages and programs to adjust, so if you are running from the official Debian repository you will be safe on a systemd system. Debian has more info here: https://wiki.debian.org/systemd

At this stage you are more likely to find a program not working on a non-systemd system than a program not working on a systemd system (unless it's super old).

bradhamilton wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:43 pm

CharlesV wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:35 pm and as another perspective... I use xfce and sysvinit exclusively and have had to do some 'tweaking' to get some software working. (including boot to systemd to install it), however I have been able to get all of those 'systemd only' software running on sysvinit - with a little coaxing :-)

Thanks - that's helpful! Since I'm not really a "tweaker", that's another data point to consider. I just don't have the time needed to learn to tweak, as my "golden years" are almost upon me, and I'd like to enjoy them with my family.

I'm beginning to think that I need to start considering giving up (most? all??) electronic devices in order to gain a measure of peace in my time left. I'm currently experiencing a major time-suck "updating" (HA!) my wife's laptop to Windows 11 - those of you who no longer depend on Redmond's evil child should be grateful!

: - )

I SO understand! Just as a reference for you too... I have quite a few clients that are "in golden years" (75 to 88!) and ALL of them on linux love it. For several I have turned off the update notification, and I update them a couple of times a year, or if there is an issue on the machine. The reality of linux is that a) they are not forced to update, and b) most of them dont go to bad places, and c) firefox (with ublockorigin) and thunderbird... keep them away from most issues.

AK-47 wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:46 pm

Eadwine Rose wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:00 pmEarlier @BV206 asked: How do you know if a program requires systemd?
Now I ask: how do you know if a program won't work with systemd?

I guess the best way is to test it and find out, if it doesn't work then try in a VM with sysvinit and compare the result. Given that systemd has been around in the Debian ecosystem since version 8 (Jessie) there has been 10 years for packages and programs to adjust, so if you are running from the official Debian repository you will be safe on a systemd system. Debian has more info here: https://wiki.debian.org/systemd

At this stage you are more likely to find a program not working on a non-systemd system than a program not working on a systemd system (unless it's super old).

Thanks.. yeah.. I barely get anything outside of the general population, so... I am just gonna start out with systemd. If you hear a loud explosion and then me coming in ranting, then you'll know something went wonky

As far as just running the OS, I have noticed no difference in sysvinit and systemd. The only noticeable thing for me is sysvinit boots several seconds faster.

AK-47 wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:46 pm [...]
I guess the best way is to test it and find out, if it doesn't work then try in a VM with sysvinit and compare the result. Given that systemd has been around in the Debian ecosystem since version 8 (Jessie) there has been 10 years for packages and programs to adjust, so if you are running from the official Debian repository you will be safe on a systemd system. Debian has more info here: https://wiki.debian.org/systemd

At this stage you are more likely to find a program not working on a non-systemd system than a program not working on a systemd system (unless it's super old).

Thanks for the link - when I went there, this caught my eye:

"systemd hangs on startup or shutdown
Sometimes it is necessary to investigate why systemd hangs on startup or on reboot/shutdown."

Huh????? Do the Debian devs consider this to be a standard "feature"? If so, then that's another data point *against* using systemD - if it was a bug, or even a "feature", it should have been either fixed or "enhanced" - by removing the "feature".

: - )

bradhamilton wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 2:34 pm "systemd hangs on startup or shutdown
Sometimes it is necessary to investigate why systemd hangs on startup or on reboot/shutdown."

Huh????? Do the Debian devs consider this to be a standard "feature"? If so, then that's another data point *against* using systemD - if it was a bug, or even a "feature", it should have been either fixed or "enhanced" - by removing the "feature".

To be fair... I have had my share of hangs at shut down without systemd.

The ship has landed.

Meanwhile over at the antiX forum they be like .......
I mean think about it. They have all their eggs in one basket and they don't seem worried.

Having 2 full separate isos is actually a good thing. It means that we no longer need systemd-shim to run SYSV. (No offense to the systemd-shim maintainer who put in the hard work all these years)

We can have a fully fledged sysv iso that can stand on it's own now. Remember Systemd-shim was a band aid not a permanent cure. 10+ years ago (or whenever it was that debian made that fateful decision), the devs had no choice but to use systemd-shim since systemd seemed like the only way forward.

Now, finally MX25 can actually be "systemd-free" ......... whilst also not compromising on systemd

Having 2 systems in 1 was getting convoluted anyway. Twice the amount of settings/configs to search through, twice the amount of init stuff to learn.

I for one celebrate this news since I am a SysV neckbeard.

EDIT: I do feel for the KDE people though. I'm pretty optimistic though that the devs will be able to do something about it