MX Linux Forum

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 12:33 pm**

To me it all actually makes perfect sense.

Much as it irks me to say it SysV has stagnated years ago and pretty much the entire ecosystem expects SystemD and people are surprised when it's not present... it's just the way almost everything has gone.

Regarding X11 vs Wayland.... would it not be better to include a toggle with the installer for the default? Perhaps also a toggle in MX Tweak? It won't really matter all that much as KDE should remember the last used session so it should be easy to set the default after the fact but the operative word is "should". The only default setting in settings is for automatic login.

Both these changes of positioning have been highly predictable for a while now.

I have never and still see no point in using secure boot and 32-kernels probably wont be an issue anymore given the state of hardware in use.... personally neither affects me.

EDIT: in case someone missed it https://mxlinux.org/blog/changes-coming-with-mx-25/

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 12:50 pm**

I have one question. Are there any common end user type applications like office, drawing, web browsers, mail, etc. that will only run on systemd, or does the init system not affect most software?

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 12:52 pm**

I agree as well,

What's sad is when you make a decision like this the finality of it seems to dull a lot of the credit that is due to the MX team and shim maintainers for doing the herculean and unprecedented task they did for so long. It was an incredible feat! Sadly, swimming against the current makes you strong, then it makes you tired and then it becomes impossible. We talk a lot about freedom and choice in the Linux world but 'the people above' make decisions and sooner or later they become the status quo and resistance becomes difficult, exhausting and then futile.. To be clear choice has not been lost as sysv will still be offered but the ability to provide something so unique has been forced to an end and whenever such ends occur in the open source world there is an extra measure of feeling disappointed and a bit disillusioned. Systemd played out, PipeWire played out and Wayland is next, it's not an 'if' it's a 'when' at this point.

Everything has rules and limitations and we're not as free here as we'd like to believe even without corporate overlords. To me these changes in MX despite the best efforts and extremely hard work are a sobering reminder about about how free we are in Linuxdom..

Just my 2 cents as an observer..

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 1:03 pm**

BV206 wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 12:50 pm I have one question. Are there any common end user type applications like office, drawing, web browsers, mail, etc. that will only run on systemd, or does the init system not affect most software?

From what I have seen, the real difference is how things are launched and what they may have required to already be running. (ie services.)

I have encountered some applications that 'require' systemd, (backup applications, online service connections, printer drivers, databases, etc) all of which I have so far been able to get around by creating scripts to launch them. However, talking to support techs about it.. they are adamant the systemd must be run to support their apps. ( yes, I realize these are the unknowing, but some have flat out told me they will not support it unless.)

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 1:03 pm**

AVLinux wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 12:52 pm I agree as well,

What's sad is when you make a decision like this the finality of it seems to dull a lot of the credit that is due to the MX team and shim maintainers for doing the herculean and unprecedented task they did for so long. It was an incredible feat! Sadly, swimming against the current makes you strong, then it makes you tired and then it becomes impossible. We talk a lot about freedom and choice in the Linux world but 'the people above' make decisions and sooner or later they become the status quo and resistance becomes difficult, exhausting and then futile.. To be clear choice has not been lost as sysv will still be offered but the ability to provide something so unique has been forced to an end and whenever such ends occur in the open source world there is an extra measure of feeling disappointed and a bit disillusioned. Systemd played out, PipeWire played out and Wayland is next, it's not an 'if' it's a 'when' at this point.

Everything has rules and limitations and we're not as free here as we'd like to believe even without corporate overlords. To me these changes in MX despite the best efforts and extremely hard work are a sobering thought about how free we are in Linuxdom..

Just my 2 cents as an observer..

VERY well said!

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 1:07 pm**

rambo919 wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 12:33 pm Regarding X11 vs Wayland.... would it not be better to include a toggle with the installer for the default? Perhaps also a toggle in MX Tweak? It won't really matter all that much as KDE should remember the last used session so it should be easy to set the default after the fact but the operative word is "should". The only default setting in settings is for automatic login.

KDE will have Wayland as the default desktop session.
Sounds like XFCE has some work left to be done regarding Wayland support and fluxbox will never be able to use Wayland as a desktop session, so X11 will be the only choice.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 2:10 pm**

AVLinux wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 12:52 pm Just my 2 cents as an observer..

Yes. At the end of the day, freedom is not free. You either have to fight for it or maintain it yourself.

We can't all be batman.... we are not even all wealthy enough to even attempt it.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 2:20 pm**

Well, I've already started using systemd and trying to learn about it.
And in the distant future, I'll have to learn about Wayland.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 2:48 pm**

Gabriel_M wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 2:20 pm Well, I've already started using systemd and trying to learn about it.
And in the distant future, I'll have to learn about Wayland.

Maybe... that war is still ongoing though.... it's going to be a harder fought one than the init one was.... especially since politics got involved early on.... which means it's gonna get real stupid sometimes.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 3:05 pm**

Sorry , don't care for KDE. Not looking forward to Wayland in XFCE. Have used Systemd in other distros, all right I guess.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 3:21 pm**

And in the distant future, I'll have to learn about Wayland.

I've been using Linux for 20+ years and I know virtually nothing about Xorg. (I used to have to configure X11 conf file, but I forgot how to do that long time ago), the point is that these kind of things are transparent and user should not even need to learn about them.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 3:23 pm**

rambo919 wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 2:48 pm it's going to be a harder fought one than the init one was.... especially since politics got involved early on....

Heh, it's relative how "early on" you are talking about here :), good to remember Wayland is an older project than systemd.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 3:27 pm**

Adrian wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 3:21 pm the point is that these kind of things are transparent and user should not even need to learn about them.

Indeed. Personally, as I've mentioned at some point in the past, I'll use the system that gets the job done. In other words, if the software that I need and which is used in production works transparently and without stress on some system (be it the init system in question, or the graphical server/compositor/backend/etc.) , I'll use that real-world working one instead of something that doesn't work as well, for my specific needs and projects.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 3:30 pm**

Nokkaelaein wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 3:23 pm Heh, it's relative how "early on" you are talking about here :), good to remember Wayland is an older project than systemd.

It only really became a war once it was obvious corps started actively attempting to strangle xorg.... no one really knows why they chose silent violence but that doesn't really matter I guess.

If wayland was a complete viable total replacement... I doubt it would have mattered. Too many things just don't work on it though and the devs are oddly militant.

In 10 years it probably wont matter anymore either way but the rumors of the death of X11 are still wildly exaggerated.

2025 has been a wild year for random FOSS wars, I kinda wait in anticipation for whatever drama comes next

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:01 pm**

It's great to see the live system being compatible with systemd. I'm no fan of systemd, but I'm tired of applications failing with SysV. It might not be common, but if you use AppImages, Flatpaks, (Snaps of course) and GitHub debs you will sooner or later encounter them. I accept systemd these days, because it works well.

Wayland is a different story. I wanted to try it with LXQt, but I can't get labwc or wayfire to work. Some of my apps don't seem Wayland ready, lightdm for example. I switched to sddm, but it doesn't work anyway. Then there is the whole Wayland fragmentation on the compositor side. Some of the LXQt components only support wlroots based compositors. They aim to support at least 7 different Wayland compositors so they have a lot of work to do. They will *never* abandon the X11 backend, but who knows what Qt devs will do.

Dedoimedo wrote at least 5 articles with Wayland benchmarks against X11 and it was less performant in KDE in desktop mode. Steam Deck still uses X11 by the way. I think there is still a lot of Wayland compositor optimization that needs to be done. You might not notice any difference on a powerful machine and for gaming (fullscreen) performance might be similar.

I don't care about the security aspect of Wayland. If you don't give an application Internet permission (using OpenSnitch for example) then the biggest attack vector is gone. And with Flatpaks/Flatseal you can go wild with all kinds of restrictions/permissions if you want to.

Xlibre devs promise Wayland parity (security, HDR etc.). We'll see if they can deliver. Per monitor fractional scaling is already possible on X11 I believe, but not implemented in KDE (I don't have dual monitors, but I think Cinnamon and XFCE support it on X11). That's why you see KDE users on Reddit claiming that per monitor fractional scaling is a Wayland feature. Same thing with fractional scaling in general. Real fractional scaling is always a toolkit feature.

But this discussion is like discussing which browser is the best. In the end it depends on the user.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:37 pm**

i have never said a negative thing about MX since i began using it with mx17. i enjoyed and had great luck running it as it was by default sysvinit. now i am a bit concerned and in a quandary as to what and how to proceed to get the mx25 to operate as close to the 23 version i am currently running. i have been an advocate for mx and i would hate to have to try and find and start all over again somewhere else or with another distro since MX has always blown me away! i do not know a lot of technical stuff - i just want it to work and feel as 'normal' as possible for my user-friendly experience. Dolphin has always been cool and honest and knowledgeable and hard working as well as the rest of the team... i just hope it all works out in the end. :-)

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:45 pm**

thinkpadx wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:37 pm i have never said a negative thing about MX since i began using it with mx17. i enjoyed and had great luck running it as it was by default sysvinit. now i am a bit concerned and in a quandary as to what and how to proceed to get the mx25 to operate as close to the 23 version i am currently running. i have been an advocate for mx and i would hate to have to try and find and start all over again somewhere else or with another distro since MX has always blown me away! i do not know a lot of technical stuff - i just want it to work and feel as 'normal' as possible for my user-friendly experience. Dolphin has always been cool and honest and knowledgeable and hard working as well as the rest of the team... i just hope it all works out in the end. :-)

I think especially in the case of MX-25 XFCE4 there will be nothing even noticeably different, unless you have some strong opinions about init systems I think running it systemd-only will be invisible to the User, in fact many peripheral things like external apps and VPNs will just work without any interventions, in this way you won't even have to consciously change how it boots. If you have valid concerns about systemd then you will choose the sysvinit variant and it will also will work pretty much as MX's XFCE4 versions always have.. XFCE4 and Fluxbox aren't changing anything regarding Wayland, they will continue with X11 as always and will be supported for the duration of the Debian Stable release + the extended LTS support. People will be set for many years with MX-25, there is no wolf at the door..

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:45 pm**

now i am a bit concerned and in a quandary as to what and how to proceed to get the mx25 to operate as close to the 23 version

What exactly are you concerned about? What is the use case in MX-23 that you want to replicate in MX-25? I don't think there's any reason to be concerned, everything that was working before should work in MX-25 if you are confused about which ISO to choose if you were using sysvinit (the default in MX-23) choose that ISO for MX-25 and you won't see a difference... so... what exactly is the worry about?

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:46 pm**

thinkpadx wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:37 pm i enjoyed and had great luck running it as it was by default sysvinit. now i am a bit concerned and in a quandary as to what and how to proceed to get the mx25 to operate as close to the 23 version i am currently running.

If you've been running MX with sysvinit all this time, and it's worked great, no need for systemd etc. etc, in all probability you will be using MX 25 exactly the same way, installing the sysv version and rocking on :).

Ninja'd. Twice :]

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:51 pm**

my dumbness. i believe you 2 have reassured me that to choose the iso with xfve and sysvinit that it should work and run like i am used to. i am intelligent, and very old but not a techie command line geek unfortunately. i have never had an issue other than one or two things i had to resolve with the help of you people. that is my comfort zone. thank you. and yes i read all of DO's post/statement.

p.s. I know enough to be dangerous!!!

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:55 pm**

I am more concerned with other things that Debian may have changed or dropped than the sysv/systemd issues.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 5:07 pm**

BV206 wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:55 pm I am more concerned with other things that Debian may have changed or dropped than the sysv/systemd issues.

From my experience with alpha builds with Trixie there are a few changes but nothing earth-shattering, off the top of my head..

cpufrequtils is discontinued, a minor annoyance..
policykit-gnome is discontinued but the wonderful MX devs have kept it alive, mate and lxde policykit variants are also viable alternatives.
32 bit kernels are discontinued but not 32bit Packages
GTK2 appears to still be intact
QT5 is still there alongside QT6
X11 is alive and as well as ever in Debian

I'm sure there are others I just can't recall right now.. I thought Debian's hammer fell pretty softly on Trixie..

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 5:08 pm**

AVLinux wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 5:07 pm
BV206 wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:55 pm I am more concerned with other things that Debian may have changed or dropped than the sysv/systemd issues.
From my experience with alpha builds with Trixie there are a few changes but nothing earth-shattering, off the top of my head..

cpufrequtils is discontinued, a minor annoyance..
policykit-gnome is discontinued but the wonderful MX devs have kept it alive, mate and lxde policykit variants are viable alternatives.
32 bit kernels are discontinued but not 32bit Packages
GTK2 appears to still be intact
QT5 is still there alongside QT6
X11 is alive and as well as ever in Debian

I'm sure there are others I just can't recall right now.. I thought Debian's hammer fell pretty softly on Trixie..

That's a good summary, haven't seen anything else out of ordinary.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 8:47 pm**

I fell in love with Mepis if for no other reason than the fact that Warren and I seemed to be on the same wavelength about how a distro should look, feel, and operate. That carried over to the KDE offering that the MX devs ended up offering (after some whining and cajoling), and I haven't looked back. If MX-25 KDE gives me the same look, feel, and operates the same as my trusty old MX-19 KDE, that should last me until the end of my days.

Did I read right, that the KDE systemd version will require UEFI? I'm not sure this 2011 vintage machine even has that capability.

Code: Select all

System:    Kernel: 5.6.0-2-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 8.3.0 
           parameters: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-5.6.0-2-amd64 root=UUID=<filter> ro quiet splash 
           Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.14.5 wm: kwin_x11 vt: 7 dm: SDDM Distro: MX-19.4_KDE_x64 patito feo August 16  2020 
           base: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) 
Machine:   Type: Desktop Mobo: ASUSTeK model: M4A87TD/USB3 v: Rev 1.xx serial: <filter> BIOS: American Megatrends v: 0601 
           date: 04/02/2010 
CPU:       Info: Quad Core model: AMD Athlon II X4 630 bits: 64 type: MCP arch: K10 family: 10 (16) model-id: 5 stepping: 2 
           microcode: 10000DB cache: L2: 2 MiB 
           flags: lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4a svm bogomips: 22475 
           Speed: 800 MHz min/max: 800/2800 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 800 2: 2800 3: 800 4: 800 
           Vulnerabilities: Type: itlb_multihit status: Not affected 
           Type: l1tf status: Not affected 
           Type: mds status: Not affected 
           Type: meltdown status: Not affected 
           Type: spec_store_bypass status: Not affected 
           Type: spectre_v1 mitigation: usercopy/swapgs barriers and __user pointer sanitization 
           Type: spectre_v2 mitigation: Full AMD retpoline, STIBP: disabled, RSB filling 
           Type: srbds status: Not affected 
           Type: tsx_async_abort status: Not affected 
Graphics:  Device-1: Brooktree Bt878 Video Capture vendor: Hauppauge works WinTV Series driver: bttv v: 0.9.19 bus-ID: 02:06.0 
           chip-ID: 109e:036e class-ID: 0400 
           Device-2: NVIDIA GF119 [GeForce GT 610] vendor: PNY driver: nouveau v: kernel bus-ID: 05:00.0 chip-ID: 10de:104a 
           class-ID: 0300 
           Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.20.9 compositor: kwin_x11 driver: loaded: modesetting unloaded: fbdev,vesa 
           display-ID: :0 screens: 1 
           Screen-1: 0 s-res: 2880x900 s-dpi: 96 s-size: 762x238mm (30.0x9.4") s-diag: 798mm (31.4") 
           Monitor-1: DVI-I-1 res: 1440x900 dpi: 90 size: 408x255mm (16.1x10.0") diag: 481mm (18.9") 
           Monitor-2: VGA-1 res: 1440x900 dpi: 90 size: 408x255mm (16.1x10.0") diag: 481mm (18.9") 
           OpenGL: renderer: NVD9 v: 4.3 Mesa 20.1.8 direct render: Yes 
Audio:     Device-1: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD/ATI] SBx00 Azalia driver: snd_hda_intel v: kernel bus-ID: 00:14.2 
           chip-ID: 1002:4383 class-ID: 0403 
           Device-2: Brooktree Bt878 Video Capture vendor: Hauppauge works WinTV Series driver: bttv v: 0.9.19 bus-ID: 02:06.0 
           chip-ID: 109e:036e class-ID: 0400 
           Device-3: Brooktree Bt878 Audio Capture vendor: Hauppauge works WinTV Series driver: snd_bt87x v: kernel 
           bus-ID: 02:06.1 chip-ID: 109e:0878 class-ID: 0480 
           Device-4: NVIDIA GF119 HDMI Audio vendor: PNY driver: snd_hda_intel v: kernel bus-ID: 05:00.1 chip-ID: 10de:0e08 
           class-ID: 0403 
           Sound Server-1: ALSA v: k5.6.0-2-amd64 running: yes 
           Sound Server-2: PulseAudio v: 12.2 running: yes 
Network:   Device-1: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet vendor: ASUSTeK P8P67 and other motherboards 
           driver: r8169 v: kernel port: a800 bus-ID: 01:00.0 chip-ID: 10ec:8168 class-ID: 0200 
           IF: eth0 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter> 
Drives:    Local Storage: total: 476.03 GiB used: 130.75 GiB (27.5%) 
           SMART Message: Unable to run smartctl. Root privileges required. 
           ID-1: /dev/sda maj-min: 8:0 vendor: Mushkin model: MKNSSDRW480GB size: 447.13 GiB block-size: physical: 512 B 
           logical: 512 B speed: 6.0 Gb/s type: SSD serial: <filter> rev: 0A0 scheme: MBR 
           ID-2: /dev/sdb maj-min: 8:16 type: USB vendor: PNY model: USB 3.0 FD size: 28.9 GiB block-size: physical: 512 B 
           logical: 512 B type: N/A serial: <filter> rev: PMAP scheme: MBR 
           SMART Message: Unknown USB bridge. Flash drive/Unsupported enclosure? 
Partition: ID-1: / raw-size: 437.36 GiB size: 429.5 GiB (98.20%) used: 130.75 GiB (30.4%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda1 maj-min: 8:1 
Swap:      Alert: No swap data was found. 
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 42.0 C mobo: 37.0 C gpu: nouveau temp: 48.0 C 
           Fan Speeds (RPM): cpu: 2288 psu: 0 case-1: 0 
           Power: 12v: 12.05 5v: N/A 3.3v: 3.36 vbat: N/A 
Repos:     Packages: note: see --pkg apt: 2783 lib: 1662 flatpak: 0 
           No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list 
           Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian-stable-updates.list 
           1: deb http://deb.debian.org/debian buster-updates main contrib non-free
           Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian.list 
           1: deb http://deb.debian.org/debian buster main contrib non-free
           2: deb http://deb.debian.org/debian-security buster/updates main contrib non-free
           Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/google-chrome.list 
           1: deb [arch=amd64] http://dl.google.com/linux/chrome/deb/ stable main
           Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/mx.list 
           1: deb http://mxrepo.com/mx/repo/ buster main non-free
           No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/various.list 
Info:      Processes: 213 Uptime: 12h 31m wakeups: 1 Memory: 7.78 GiB used: 2.37 GiB (30.4%) Init: SysVinit v: 2.93 
           runlevel: 5 default: 5 tool: systemctl Compilers: gcc: 8.3.0 alt: 8 Shell: quick-system-in default: Bash v: 5.0.3 
           running-in: quick-system-in inxi: 3.3.06

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 9:28 pm**

systemd doesn't depend on UEFI. I recommend using UEFI if the machine is capable of that but it's not something you need. Using a 14 year-old machine for KDE is a pretty good stuff... You should set up a swap space though, even a small file based one.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 9:54 pm**

thinkpadx wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:37 pm i have never said a negative thing about MX since i began using it with mx17. i enjoyed and had great luck running it as it was by default sysvinit. now i am a bit concerned and in a quandary as to what and how to proceed to get the mx25 to operate as close to the 23 version i am currently running. i have been an advocate for mx and i would hate to have to try and find and start all over again somewhere else or with another distro since MX has always blown me away! i do not know a lot of technical stuff - i just want it to work and feel as 'normal' as possible for my user-friendly experience. Dolphin has always been cool and honest and knowledgeable and hard working as well as the rest of the team... i just hope it all works out in the end. :-)

Besides all the reassurances the others have given you, my advice would be that if and when you want to move to MX25, install it FRESH and get a properly set up default system.

Don't try to use the unsupported, warning-laden way of carrying out an in-place upgrade of your existing MX23 install to turn it into MX25.

Due to the removal of systemd-shim, etc etc, it may not go smoothly, may require manual intervention, and even with all that, may mess up your system, especially if you aren't a knowledgeable, technical Linux user.

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 10:29 pm**

hmmm

One of the reasons I like MX was because it was not systemd. Altho you may not care, I do not see a huge future in sysV init either.

I do like the "simpilcity" of runit. And my other distro void is already on 6.12 series some snippets if interested

Code: Select all

inxi -F
System:
  Host: box Kernel: 6.12.41_1 arch: x86_64 bits: 64
  Desktop: Xfce v: 4.20.1-UNKNOWN Distro: Void Linux

Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 21.1.18 driver: X: loaded: amdgpu

Src: /sys System Temperatures: cpu: 26.0 C mobo: N/A gpu: amdgpu

inxi -Ixxx
Info:
  Memory: total: 64 GiB note: est. available: 61.71 GiB used: 1.57 GiB (2.5%)
  Processes: 287 Power: uptime: 12m states: freeze,mem,disk suspend: deep
    wakeups: 0 hibernate: platform Init: runit v: N/A
  Packages: pm: xbps pkgs: 675 Compilers: N/A Shell: Bash v: 5.2.32
    running-in: xfce4-terminal inxi: 3.3.38

Posted: **Mon Aug 04, 2025 11:21 pm**

ghunter wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 10:29 pm hmmm

One of the reasons I like MX was because it was not systemd. Altho you may not care, I do not see a huge future in sysV init either.

I do like the "simpilcity" of runit. And my other distro void is already on 6.12 series some snippets if interested
Code: Select all
inxi -F
System:
  Host: box Kernel: 6.12.41_1 arch: x86_64 bits: 64
  Desktop: Xfce v: 4.20.1-UNKNOWN Distro: Void Linux

Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 21.1.18 driver: X: loaded: amdgpu

Src: /sys System Temperatures: cpu: 26.0 C mobo: N/A gpu: amdgpu

inxi -Ixxx
Info:
  Memory: total: 64 GiB note: est. available: 61.71 GiB used: 1.57 GiB (2.5%)
  Processes: 287 Power: uptime: 12m states: freeze,mem,disk suspend: deep
    wakeups: 0 hibernate: platform Init: runit v: N/A
  Packages: pm: xbps pkgs: 675 Compilers: N/A Shell: Bash v: 5.2.32
    running-in: xfce4-terminal inxi: 3.3.38

I'm generally happy with my Void runit install, but I haven't been able to get my VPN client working on it. And those ovpn files don't seem to work either. So I've settled for using the vpn's firefox broswer extension.

On the other hand, I was able to get Artix (Arch-based) runit distro to work with the same vpn client. The runit script that works with Artix doesn't work with Void, unfortunately. I still like Void, but it's not as fully "it just works" as MX.

I'm happy to continue using MX25 XFCE with sysV, while moving to systemd on MX-KDE.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 1:02 am**

ghunter wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 10:29 pm hmmm

One of the reasons I like MX was because it was not systemd. Altho you may not care, I do not see a huge future in sysV init either.

A quick search using the factors: Linux, Debian based and SysV shows 16 distros. If you take Debian out it goes up to 49 distros.

One of the partners that run the site I searched on is one of the 4 maintainers of SysV init. A project as small as an init process with 4 people maintaining seems to have a better than average future IMHO.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:09 am**

Significant data loss incident last time ran systemd, and ethical issues, so wouldn't run a systemd version, but wanting to ask if mullvad installer (systemd-shim) and wine (needs systemd and sysV?) would run on the purely sysV version.

Thanks that there'll be a sysV version, that that isn't going away. Also, thanks to the guy who worked on systemd-shim; glad got to use it and can continue to maintain pc running that for the foreseeable.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:14 am**

autumn wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:09 am Significant data loss incident last time ran systemd

How does something like that happen?

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:25 am**

No idea @rambo919 except a dbus issue happened at the same time as freefilesync doing something and I plugged in a usb. Not technical, tried to get answers, but unfortunately didn't happen. Referencing different distro in this instance, earlier this year. Have seen others report similar at times, in lots of places, but had thought such systemd issues wouldn't still be happening, and definitely hadn't thought would be worse than when ran systemd a few years ago.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:09 am**

BV206 wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 12:50 pm I have one question. Are there any common end user type applications like office, drawing, web browsers, mail, etc. that will only run on systemd, or does the init system not affect most software?

I don't run systemD and I have no issues running programs. That doesn't mean that you might come across something that requires systemD. While I am not a fan of systemD at least it worked when it came out and still works unlike Wayland that there have been many issues from the beginning and it seems it's a big taboo subject to question on what's the problem? I hope the Wayland developers get everything to work but progress has been slower than you can shake a stick at it yet the Wayland developers seemed tight lipped about it.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:41 am**

Will stick with sysV & X as long as it's available.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:52 am**

I am looking forward to a systemd only fluxbox.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:55 am**

siamhie wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 1:07 pmKDE will have Wayland as the default desktop session.

Your use of the term default implies one will be able to use x11 as well.

I like XScreenSaver but at present it won't work on Wayland. Not that it's a necessity as KDE's screen locking is reliable, unlike Xfce's.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:56 am**

autumn wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:25 am No idea @rambo919 except a dbus issue happened at the same time as freefilesync doing something and I plugged in a usb. Not technical, tried to get answers, but unfortunately didn't happen. Referencing different distro in this instance, earlier this year. Have seen others report similar at times, in lots of places, but had thought such systemd issues wouldn't still be happening, and definitely hadn't thought would be worse than when ran systemd a few years ago.

I can only find one vague incident where the guy says FFS started destroying his ext4 externals... no mention of systemD

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:11 am**

LU344928 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:55 am
siamhie wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 1:07 pmKDE will have Wayland as the default desktop session.

Your use of the term default implies one will be able to use x11 as well.

Yes. It's mentioned in the blog. The link to the blog is on post #1.
Currently, KDE defaults to X11 but users can switch to Wayland if they want to.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:16 am**

asqwerth wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 9:54 pm ......my advice would be that if and when you want to move to MX25, install it FRESH and get a properly set up default system.
Don't try to use the unsupported, warning-laden way of carrying out an in-place upgrade of your existing MX23 install to turn it into MX25.
Due to the removal of systemd-shim, etc etc, it may not go smoothly, may require manual intervention, and even with all that, may mess up your system, especially if you aren't a knowledgeable, technical Linux user.

I intend to do a fresh install of the default MX25.
Is there a way to superimpose over the fresh install, settings and files from Thunderbird, Firefox, emails, docs etc or do these all have to be added individually/manually?

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:24 am**

AltairIV wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:16 am .....Having said that, is there a way to superimpose over the fresh install, settings and files from Thunderbird, Firefox, emails, docs etc or do these all have to be added individually/manually?

The installer allows you to do a fresh install of MX25 with the option of preserving your /home. That's where the settings and config files from Thunderbird, Firefox, and other apps are stored. Assuming also that you had a default set up of Thunderbird, I believe your emails will be in /home, though you should check with someone who uses that program. As for docs, assuming they were saved in /home, preserving home will preserve them.

HOWEVER, the warning we always give is that before your carry out the fresh install, you should back up all the important stuff in /home to a separate storage device. Firefox and thundebird settings and stored emails can copied over to the backup storage device.

Common sense precaution.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:52 am**

Remember... Murphy both dotes on and despises you at the same time.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:01 am**

@AltairIV

oops, I forgot to add that before you do your fresh install, use the MX tool called "User Installed Programs" to save a list of the programs in MX23 that you installed yourself (ie, they didn't come with as default with MX23). Save that uip file elsewhere.

After you have done your fresh install of MX25 preserving home, you can open up User Installed Programs in your new MX25 install, feed it that saved uip file, and it will help you install with a single command most of what you had installed in MX23.

Exceptions -
1.flatpaks [anyway, once you are in MX25, there could be a newer native version of the program that works well for you so you might not need the flatpak version anymore ]
2. native programs from MX23/Debian12 repos that are no longer found in the MX25/Debian 13 repos
3. things you manually installed from external deb files.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:07 am**

asqwerth wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:01 am @AltairIV

oops, I forgot to add that before you do your fresh install, use the MX tool called "User Installed Programs" to save a list of the programs in MX23 that you installed yourself (ie, they didn't come with as default with MX23). Save that uip file elsewhere.

After you have done your fresh install of MX25 preserving home, you can open up User Installed Programs in your new MX25 install, feed it that saved uip file, and it will help you install with a single command most of what you had installed in MX23.

Exceptions -
1.flatpaks [anyway, once you are in MX25, there could be a newer native version of the program that works well for you so you might not need the flatpak version anymore ]
2. native programs from MX23/Debian12 repos that are no longer found in the MX25/Debian 13 repos
3. things you manually installed from external deb files.

Many thanks, you have been very helpful.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:14 am**

rambo919 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:52 am Remember... Murphy both dotes on and despises you at the same time.

We should all, as a matter of priority, devote ourselves to the cultivation of equanimity and the freedom it bestows from the vicissitudes of other's opinions
........and remember to 'tie up the horse', just in case.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 8:48 am**

FullScale4Me wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 1:02 am ....sysV ..... A project as small as an init process with 4 people maintaining seems to have a better than average future IMHO.

actually I can remember using Slackware and Pat living in the mountains got sick and no-one knew what was happening. The wikipedia suggests circa 2004. So I am not sure there is merit in saying a small number of maintainers has any merit....even if the code base is small IMHO
But I agree that the number of distros that use sysV far outweigh runit.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 9:46 am**

Adrian wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 9:28 pm systemd doesn't depend on UEFI. I recommend using UEFI if the machine is capable of that but it's not something you need. Using a 14 year-old machine for KDE is a pretty good stuff... You should set up a swap space though, even a small file based one.

When I built this thing I went as spec heavy as I could stand and afford without going crazy, hoping to make it as obsolescence proof as possible. I've since doubled the RAM and added an SSD, but otherwise it's straight 2011 vintage. I've thought about building a new one but the way this thing has performed I haven't been able to justify it. Of course, nowadays I don't push it nearly as much as others do. It's mostly just an Internet browsing appliance.

Weird that QSI didn't find my swap. It's there, 10GB. Just checked it with gParted. <shrug>

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 9:50 am**

Maybe it's not enabled what does "swapon --show" shows?

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 10:14 am**

rambo919 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:56 am I can only find one vague incident where the guy says FFS started destroying his ext4 externals... no mention of systemD

400gb folder I lost after systemd dbus error wasn't in the ffs list though and it was a systemd dbus error reported, not ffs ... I'm just saying what was happening at the time data lost (ffs sync and me plugging in a usb). Had used ffs for a couple of years with sysV and no data loss, but as soon as to a systemd distro, lost data. Rarely post online, so the 'guy' wasn't me. I just started using grsync instead, as an aside, as various issues pointed to systemd problems, so the best thing was to return to sysV, despite issues with other things in distro.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 10:44 am**

rambo919 wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 3:30 pm
Nokkaelaein wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 3:23 pm Heh, it's relative how "early on" you are talking about here :), good to remember Wayland is an older project than systemd.
It only really became a war once it was obvious corps started actively attempting to strangle xorg.... no one really knows why they chose silent violence but that doesn't really matter I guess.

If wayland was a complete viable total replacement... I doubt it would have mattered. Too many things just don't work on it though and the devs are oddly militant.

In 10 years it probably wont matter anymore either way but the rumors of the death of X11 are still wildly exaggerated.

2025 has been a wild year for random FOSS wars, I kinda wait in anticipation for whatever drama comes next

The devs are the normal Gnome morons who have been like that for the entire 26 years I have used GNU/Linux. They think they are Gods gift to the earth and it is their way or the highway for anything they touch. They are fully controled by the parasite corporations and have been for some time. They push the corporate agenda of controlling/subverting this until until they have taken total control of its direction to favour the money making interests those corporation seek and to close it down a much as possible. You just need to look at the moves Redhat have made to see the direction they want to take it, then add in the Microsoft efforts at subversion thorough the systemd moles they had in there for the longest time until they felt comfortable enough to go home to the mother ship and not even pretend anymore. They openly brag about such and such a percentage less unix in releases.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 10:57 am**

asqwerth wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:24 am

The installer allows you to do a fresh install of MX25 with the option of preserving your /home. That's where the settings and config files from Thunderbird, Firefox, and other apps are stored. Assuming also that you had a default set up of Thunderbird, I believe your emails will be in /home, though you should check with someone who uses that program. As for docs, assuming they were saved in /home, preserving home will preserve them.

HOWEVER, the warning we always give is that before your carry out the fresh install, you should back up all the important stuff in /home to a separate storage device. Firefox and thundebird settings and stored emails can copied over to the backup storage device.

Common sense precaution.

Your thunderbird default is the ~/.thunderbird directory for its settings and firefox is the ~/.mozilla directory. And as always backups, backups and more backups is the idea and an untested backup is useless until proven to be good.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 12:42 pm**

RedGreen925 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 10:44 am The devs are the normal Gnome morons who have been like that for the entire 26 years I have used GNU/Linux.

They used to be more reasonable... then with Gnome 3 they basically stuck their heads up their own.... and kept them there.

Takes all sorts I guess.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:11 pm**

siamhie wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:11 am
LU344928 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:55 am
siamhie wrote: Mon Aug 04, 2025 1:07 pmKDE will have Wayland as the default desktop session.

Your use of the term default implies one will be able to use x11 as well.

Yes. It's mentioned in the blog. The link to the blog is on post #1.
Currently, KDE defaults to X11 but users can switch to Wayland if they want to.

Got it.

Considering it states, "At this time, the KDE iso will ship with systemd only" it looks like I'll be sticking with MX23 for some time.

Unless I decide to switch to Fluxbox... Xfce is out of the question.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:17 pm**

I hope that my media keys on my Lenovo ThinkPad E15 will finally work as they should with the new Debian release. It is only a minor issue in that the microphone indicator light on the keyboard did not signal whether the microphone was on or off, but the basic function to turn the microphone on and off was still there.
On Vanilla OS, which is based on Debian Sid, the light worked. I hope that this function or hardware compatibility of Sid has now also been adopted in Debian 13.

As far as systemd is concerned, I have so far only experienced with Lutris that it was not possible to install games using Wine if systemd was not available.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:24 pm**

LU344928 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:11 pm
siamhie wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:11 am
LU344928 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:55 am Your use of the term default implies one will be able to use x11 as well.
Yes. It's mentioned in the blog. The link to the blog is on post #1.
Currently, KDE defaults to X11 but users can switch to Wayland if they want to.
Got it.

Considering it states, "At this time, the KDE iso will ship with systemd only" it looks like I'll be sticking with MX23 for some time.

Unless I decide to switch to Fluxbox... Xfce is out of the question.

@LU344928 You do have another choice.
You could try installing the sysVinit MX-25 XFCE ISO and add kde-full from the enabled tab in MX Package Installer.
You will still have access to all of the MX Tools. I've done this in the past.

*never mind. It has been pointed out that KDE 5.25 has switched to systemd. The MX devs made it possible to boot to SysVinit but I guess KDE6 is different in that respect.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/KDE#systemd_startup

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:54 pm**

Adrian wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 9:50 am Maybe it's not enabled what does "swapon --show" shows?

I get nothing.

Code: Select all

mark@MX-KDE:~
$ swapon --show
mark@MX-KDE:~
$ sudo swapon --show
[sudo] password for mark: 
mark@MX-KDE:~
$ swapon --show
mark@MX-KDE:~
$

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 4:18 pm**

uncle mark wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:54 pm
Adrian wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 9:50 am Maybe it's not enabled what does "swapon --show" shows?
I get nothing.
Code: Select all
mark@MX-KDE:~
$ swapon --show
mark@MX-KDE:~
$ sudo swapon --show
[sudo] password for mark: 
mark@MX-KDE:~
$ swapon --show
mark@MX-KDE:~
$ 

Also "free" should list the swap space. I don't think it's set up even though you have a partition set up for that you need to make sure you have the entry in /etc/fstab for the swap. Do you?

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 4:22 pm**

uncle mark wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:54 pm I get nothing.
Code: Select all
mark@MX-KDE:~
$ swapon --show
mark@MX-KDE:~
$ sudo swapon --show
[sudo] password for mark: 
mark@MX-KDE:~
$ swapon --show
mark@MX-KDE:~

This is mine with a swap file enabled:

Code: Select all

mike@dell-lt:~
$ swapon --show
NAME       TYPE SIZE USED PRIO
/swap/swap file   3G   0B   -2

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 4:23 pm**

Markus85 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:17 pm As far as systemd is concerned, I have so far only experienced with Lutris that it was not possible to install games using Wine if systemd was not available.

Must be a freak bug cause everything works fine with sysv

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 4:26 pm**

siamhie wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:24 pm @LU344928 You do have another choice.
You could try installing the sysVinit MX-25 XFCE ISO and add kde-full from the enabled tab in MX Package Installer.
You will still have access to all of the MX Tools. I've done this in the past.

The problem is that KDE is progressively dropping support for sysv simply by ignoring it exists. Already in KDE5 you have to boot into systemd for the firewall settings to actually function (it works fine with sysv you just can't change anything) and the system monitor has missing tabs unless you run systemd. I don't even know yet what else broke in KDE6 on sysv but it can't be pretty.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 4:56 pm**

Markus85 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:17 pm As far as systemd is concerned, I have so far only experienced with Lutris that it was not possible to install games using Wine if systemd was not available.

Thanks for posting this @Markus85. That was my concern, regarding mullvad installer also. Running two separate installs, one the preferred sysV and the other a side install with systemd, if wine (or mullvad?) is needed, would be a bizarre setup. Dual-boot also may not be achievable technically (depending on user's abilities). People could end up with a main sysV install not able to be used fully.
I also feel privacy matters more than ever, and that sysV is far better at that: prefer mostly offline and to run mullvad on main offline art pc to cover any online time, but, if using mullvad and/or wine wasnt possible under sysV, personally couldn't bring myself to run a systemd install. Keeping current install for as long as possible ... maybe others will be doing that too, leaving any upgrade as long as possible or even having to research other distros.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:03 pm**

rambo919 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 4:26 pm
siamhie wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:24 pm @LU344928 You do have another choice.
You could try installing the sysVinit MX-25 XFCE ISO and add kde-full from the enabled tab in MX Package Installer.
You will still have access to all of the MX Tools. I've done this in the past.
The problem is that KDE is progressively dropping support for sysv simply by ignoring it exists. Already in KDE5 you have to boot into systemd for the firewall settings to actually function (it works fine with sysv you just can't change anything) and the system monitor has missing tabs unless you run systemd. I don't even know yet what else broke in KDE6 on sysv but it can't be pretty.

I believe you're right. I just read this KDE ArchWiKi that stated this

3.10 systemd startup

Plasma uses a systemd user instance to launch and manage all the Plasma services. This is the default startup method since Plasma 5.25, but can be disabled to use boot scripts instead with the following command (however this may stop working in a future release):

$ kwriteconfig6 --file startkderc --group General --key systemdBoot false

More details about the implementation can be read in Edmundson's blog: Plasma and the systemd startup.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/KDE#systemd_startup

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:10 pm**

autumn wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 4:56 pm Thanks for posting this @Markus85. That was my concern, regarding mullvad installer also.

I'm running the sysvinit-only MX-23 respin and have had no problems running Lutris, WINE, or the Mullvad VPN software on it. I believe the mullvad-vpn package offered in the repos is 2025.05 and it complained that I should upgrade to 2025.07, so last weekend I tried installing that by adding the official Mullvad repo and key manually and that install barfed on trying to install the systemd service unit file. So I did some very basic repair actions, then an uninstall and reinstall, and a restart. Now, so far as I can tell, I'm using the official 2025.07 package with the MX 2025.05 startup script. No complaints. If running "apt-get install -f" sounds scary to you, maybe think twice before installing anything outside of the MXPI guardrails. Personally, I suspect MX-25 will have a newer Mullvad package by default and, to be honest with myself, there wasn't anything wrong or defective about the functionality of 2025.05 version I'd had. Both versions work more or less equally well, but it reminded me that I live perhaps too comfortable a life inside the MX-only, sysvinit-only walled garden.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:10 pm**

FullScale4Me wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 4:22 pm
uncle mark wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:54 pm I get nothing.
Code: Select all
mark@MX-KDE:~
$ swapon --show
mark@MX-KDE:~
$ sudo swapon --show
[sudo] password for mark: 
mark@MX-KDE:~
$ swapon --show
mark@MX-KDE:~
This is mine with a swap file enabled:
Code: Select all
mike@dell-lt:~
$ swapon --show
NAME       TYPE SIZE USED PRIO
/swap/swap file   3G   0B   -2

and this is mine with a partition.

Code: Select all

swapon --show
NAME      TYPE      SIZE USED PRIO
/dev/sdb2 partition  64G   0B   -2

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:53 pm**

@uncle mark I'm glad I asked because you have that partition for nothing, you probably just need to add in /etc/fstab an entry like:
UUID=.... none swap defaults 0 0

Where UUID is the uuid for you swap partition, use blkid to get the uuid.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:25 pm**

DukeComposed wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:10 pm
autumn wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 4:56 pm Thanks for posting this @Markus85. That was my concern, regarding mullvad installer also.
I'm running the sysvinit-only MX-23 respin and have had no problems running Lutris, WINE, or the Mullvad VPN software on it ... Now, so far as I can tell, I'm using the official 2025.07 package with the MX 2025.05 startup script. ... Personally, I suspect MX-25 will have a newer Mullvad package by default and, to be honest with myself, there wasn't anything wrong or defective about the functionality of 2025.05 version I'd had ... I live perhaps too comfortable a life inside the MX-only, sysvinit-only walled garden.

Thanks for assurances; great to know. Hadn't upgraded mullvad yet, as, yes, 2025.5 works fine. And I don't think there's anything wrong with being in the walled garden tbh, as everything works better when there's good stability and compatability ... can get a lot more done, and without added stress tech stuff increasingly seems to bring.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:26 pm**

Adrian wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:53 pm @uncle mark I'm glad I asked because you have that partition for nothing, you probably just need to add in /etc/fstab an entry like:
UUID=.... none swap defaults 0 0

Where UUID is the uuid for you swap partition, use blkid to get the uuid.

Well I'll be damned. You were right. No swap shown in fstab. Would have been that way since I installed I guess. Never had an issue, though. <shrug>

Thanks for the assist.

Code: Select all

mark@MX-KDE:~
$ swapon --show
NAME      TYPE      SIZE USED PRIO
/dev/sda2 partition 9.8G   0B   -2
mark@MX-KDE:~

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:29 pm**

Slightly OT...

I've never really understood the case for SWAP greater than 1 or 2 Gb, if your system is out of memory it's going to be a downward spiral and all kind of weird stuff is going to be going on in which case you'll reboot anyway or at least you'd want to on old mechanical HDD systems. I don't know if I've ever run out of memory even on my older computers. Maybe I'm stingy but I want that 10Gb for Data not for unlikely emergencies...lol

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:40 pm**

AVLinux wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:29 pm Slightly OT...

I've never really understood the case for SWAP greater than 1 or 2 Gb, if your system is out of memory it's going to be a downward spiral and all kind of weird stuff is going to be going on in which case you'll reboot anyway or at least you'd want to on old mechanical HDD systems. I don't know if I've ever run out of memory even on my older computers. Maybe I'm stingy but I want that 10Gb for Data not for unlikely emergencies...lol

I think 1-2GB should cover accidental need, if it's a runaway process it will fill the swap quickly too, the only reason to have larger swap is only if you want to use for hibernation.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:11 pm**

rambo919 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 12:42 pm
RedGreen925 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 10:44 am The devs are the normal Gnome morons who have been like that for the entire 26 years I have used GNU/Linux.
They used to be more reasonable... then with Gnome 3 they basically stuck their heads up their own.... and kept them there.

Takes all sorts I guess.

I just remember the lies and BS they used to spread about KDE/Trolltek way back then because they had the audacity to dual license the QT toolkit for paying and free uses. Meanwhile their beloved Redhat launched as a for profit company for insane valuation in the .com bubble at the same time, hypocrites every one of them. As far as I can see nothing has changed with them in all of these years since I first started using this in 1999, as they say you do not get a second chance to make a first impression. And the one they made on me has been proven true for going on decades now.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:21 pm**

Well, I don't pretend to know all the details and Gnome 2 was on it's way out when I got onboard but certainly RedHat seems to call the tune and what Fedora gets first (usually in an early beta state) we all get later. It's always puzzled me how Debian is often the cautious voice of choice and reason and the foundation of most popular Distros yet they seem to carry no weight in 'big Linux' decisions..

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:48 pm**

AVLinux wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:21 pm Well, I don't pretend to know all the details and Gnome 2 was on it's way out when I got onboard but certainly RedHat seems to call the tune and what Fedora gets first (usually in an early beta state) we all get later. It's always puzzled me how Debian is often the cautious voice of choice and reason and the foundation of most popular Distros yet they seem to carry no weight in 'big Linux' decisions..

Just like the current subversion of Democracy around the world by the fascists, the parasite corporations have played the long game for decades. They have used the money and the jobs given to key members of the open source community to slowly little by little over these many years to impose their agenda upon it. You see it more and more all the time with less choice being offered. Even with the Debian GNU/Linux project supposed support of the *nix philosophy do one thing and do it well has been totally subverted when they adopted the abomination of systemd. Which has grown to include its tentacles into every damn thing there is in a GNU/Linux system they conveniently forget it is supposed to be an init system. Soon it will be impossible to boot without it being present if the Microsoft employed maintainers get their way. Oh and they were just like that Miguel de Icaza leader of Gnome part of the Redhat (now owned by another corporate parasite IBM) team leading Microsoft pushed technologies to push into this before they all gave up the pretense and went back to the mother ship to get their rewards paid in full. In short it is the corporations driving the agenda, the community usually has no say, with the added bonus of having people do the work they can take for free with a few crumbs tossed on the table for open source people to have. The work they build multi-billion dollar companies on then the scumbags will not even make certain the important parts of it having the funding needed to maintain itself proper let along security concerns. I could go on for days on the subject...

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:50 pm**

@RedGreen925 Lets not please.. you are getting into political areas that are heavily frowned upon in the forum. Back on topic please.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:54 pm**

CharlesV wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:50 pm @RedGreen925 Lets not please.. you are getting into political areas that are heavily frowned upon in the forum. Back on topic please.

Reasonable enough.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 3:13 am**

AVLinux wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:21 pm Well, I don't pretend to know all the details and Gnome 2 was on it's way out when I got onboard but certainly RedHat seems to call the tune and what Fedora gets first (usually in an early beta state) we all get later. It's always puzzled me how Debian is often the cautious voice of choice and reason and the foundation of most popular Distros yet they seem to carry no weight in 'big Linux' decisions..

EDIT: nvm the explanation would be deemed "political", let's just say that sometimes strange or political seeming things really are just money or corruption things.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 5:36 am**

Is there likely to be a performance hit if running systemd? I've always enjoyed MX's lean-ness, speed and responsiveness. Will that be affected?

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:19 am**

Shifu wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 5:36 am Is there likely to be a performance hit if running systemd?

Not for the average user.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:27 am**

siamhie wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:24 pm
LU344928 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:11 pm
siamhie wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 6:11 am

Yes. It's mentioned in the blog. The link to the blog is on post #1.
Currently, KDE defaults to X11 but users can switch to Wayland if they want to.
Got it.

Considering it states, "At this time, the KDE iso will ship with systemd only" it looks like I'll be sticking with MX23 for some time.

Unless I decide to switch to Fluxbox... Xfce is out of the question.
@LU344928 You do have another choice.
You could try installing the sysVinit MX-25 XFCE ISO and add kde-full from the enabled tab in MX Package Installer.
You will still have access to all of the MX Tools. I've done this in the past.

*never mind. It has been pointed out that KDE 5.25 has switched to systemd. The MX devs made it possible to boot to SysVinit but I guess KDE6 is different in that respect.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/KDE#systemd_startup

Thanks anyway.

I wonder how Slackware users will cope. KDE's been default for some time and Slackware's been opposed to systemd from the very start of the affair. Then again, Patrick is quite a wizard so he may find a work around.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 7:50 am**

Please forgive me - if I wish to stick with MX 23, how long will it be "supported"? I'm happy with the way things are now (MX 23 with KDE5), and I know that the 6.1 LTS kernel series is "supported" until December 2027 - would that timeframe be a reasonable cutoff date for MX 23 "support", as well? I have read the original blog post in #1 - it's just not crystal clear to me about the timelines for remaining on SysV with KDE and MX 23.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 7:55 am**

LU344928 wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:27 am
siamhie wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:24 pm
LU344928 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:11 pm

Got it.

Considering it states, "At this time, the KDE iso will ship with systemd only" it looks like I'll be sticking with MX23 for some time.

Unless I decide to switch to Fluxbox... Xfce is out of the question.
@LU344928 You do have another choice.
You could try installing the sysVinit MX-25 XFCE ISO and add kde-full from the enabled tab in MX Package Installer.
You will still have access to all of the MX Tools. I've done this in the past.

*never mind. It has been pointed out that KDE 5.25 has switched to systemd. The MX devs made it possible to boot to SysVinit but I guess KDE6 is different in that respect.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/KDE#systemd_startup
Thanks anyway.

I wonder how Slackware users will cope. KDE's been default for some time and Slackware's been opposed to systemd from the very start of the affair. Then again, Patrick is quite a wizard so he may find a work around.

Or is it down to the fact that Slackware is not Debian, and that in itself is the work around?

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 8:23 am**

bradhamilton wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 7:50 am Please forgive me - if I wish to stick with MX 23, how long will it be "supported"? I'm happy with the way things are now (MX 23 with KDE5), and I know that the 6.1 LTS kernel series is "supported" until December 2027 - would that timeframe be a reasonable cutoff date for MX 23 "support", as well? I have read the original blog post in #1 - it's just not crystal clear to me about the timelines for remaining on SysV with KDE and MX 23.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MX_Linux

June 30, 2028

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 8:26 am**

bradhamilton wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 7:50 am Please forgive me - if I wish to stick with MX 23, how long will it be "supported"?

I am not an MX dveloper, but debian 12 "bookworm" is supported until about June 2026, then by the LTS team for two extra years and even by the freexian team until 2033 (core packages and security only).

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 8:30 am**

dumb question, can't they at least use update-alternatives for the init? You'll have to do a reboot for the change to take effect but at least you can still install them side by side.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 8:37 am**

exponentialmatrix wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 8:30 am dumb question, can't they at least use update-alternatives for the init? You'll have to do a reboot for the change to take effect but at least you can still install them side by side.

There's a difference between what is theoretically possible and what is practically available, the init systems are not meant to live together with other init systems, It's a Hightlander kind of thing "there can be only one" that's why when you install one it might remove the other. Ideally it would be just a package and you can point that that with something like update-alternatives, but it's not, at least not in Debian... in reality an init system has multiple components, and many packages that depend on that only so when you remove it a host of packages get removed...

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 8:43 am**

i don't know the complexities of the init system or if the system will tolerate this. In theory it's a simple packaging change.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 8:48 am**

AVLinux wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:21 pm Well, I don't pretend to know all the details and Gnome 2 was on it's way out when I got onboard but certainly RedHat seems to call the tune and what Fedora gets first (usually in an early beta state) we all get later. It's always puzzled me how Debian is often the cautious voice of choice and reason and the foundation of most popular Distros yet they seem to carry no weight in 'big Linux' decisions..

I have to respectfully disagree. Debian is the most important distro and Red Hat has limited reach without Debian support. The reason systemd is the de facto init system of Linux is because "Debian" wanted it this way. In Debian I think basically systemd (Red Hat employees) won over Upstart (Canonical employees) with 1 vote or something like that.

After Debian announced that systemd had been chosen, then Mark Shuttleworth announced that he would transition Ubuntu to systemd. So without Debian/Ubuntu/Mint there isn't much traction for Red Hat in the "consumer space".

As an Ubuntu user (at the time) this was a huge disappointment. Not because Upstart was something special, but because at the time it was the only stable init for Ubuntu. I believe Upstart would have been a less controversial decision since I believe it is less invasive and can co-exist with other inits (at the package level). It found a new home in ChromeOS. But now ChromeOS is switching to Android base so Upstart is on its way out.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 8:56 am**

bradhamilton wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 7:50 am Please forgive me - if I wish to stick with MX 23, how long will it be "supported"? I'm happy with the way things are now (MX 23 with KDE5), and I know that the 6.1 LTS kernel series is "supported" until December 2027 - would that timeframe be a reasonable cutoff date for MX 23 "support", as well? I have read the original blog post in #1 - it's just not crystal clear to me about the timelines for remaining on SysV with KDE and MX 23.

Besides the wiki link someone else provided about Debian support, you can search for "about MX Linux" on your own MX install, and the 2nd tab of MX Welcome will open showing the supported period of MX23.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 9:18 am**

dreamer wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 8:48 am
AVLinux wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 7:21 pm Well, I don't pretend to know all the details and Gnome 2 was on it's way out when I got onboard but certainly RedHat seems to call the tune and what Fedora gets first (usually in an early beta state) we all get later. It's always puzzled me how Debian is often the cautious voice of choice and reason and the foundation of most popular Distros yet they seem to carry no weight in 'big Linux' decisions..
I have to respectfully disagree. Debian is the most important distro and Red Hat has limited reach without Debian support. The reason systemd is the de facto init system of Linux is because "Debian" wanted it this way. In Debian I think basically systemd (Red Hat employees) won over Upstart (Canonical employees) with 1 vote or something like that.

After Debian announced that systemd had been chosen, then Mark Shuttleworth announced that he would transition Ubuntu to systemd. So without Debian/Ubuntu/Mint there isn't much traction for Red Hat in the "consumer space".

As an Ubuntu user (at the time) this was a huge disappointment. Not because Upstart was something special, but because at the time it was the only stable init for Ubuntu. I believe Upstart would have been a less controversial decision since I believe it is less invasive and can co-exist with other inits (at the package level). It found a new home in ChromeOS. But now ChromeOS is switching to Android base so Upstart is on its way out.

I'm always happy to be corrected and informed especially in matters where I'm offering an impression and not facts, I don't know the details, I just know as someone building ISO's for many years that often changes seem to come TO Debian and then need adoption and not necessarily from within the organization itself but again I'm an uninformed apolitical outsider.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 10:46 am**

LU344928 wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:27 am Thanks anyway.

I wonder how Slackware users will cope. KDE's been default for some time and Slackware's been opposed to systemd from the very start of the affair. Then again, Patrick is quite a wizard so he may find a work around.

@LU344928 I booted up AlienBob's latest Slackware15 -current live ISO (Aug 5th 2025) but they are still on KDE 5.27

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 2:15 pm**

AVLinux wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 9:18 am
I'm always happy to be corrected and informed especially in matters where I'm offering an impression and not facts, I don't know the details, I just know as someone building ISO's for many years that often changes seem to come TO Debian and then need adoption and not necessarily from within the organization itself but again I'm an uninformed apolitical outsider.

Sorry for quoting you as a pretext for venting a little. My only objection was your impression that Debian is some kind of victim (if I read that right). If Debian is a victim it must be to self-harm. The Universal Operating System shouldn’t be tied to systemd in my opinion.

This Debian systemd decision still gets to me. I'm a happy Windows user, but I wanted something different.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 5:19 pm**

dreamer wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 2:15 pm If Debian is a victim it must be to self-harm. The Universal Operating System shouldn’t be tied to systemd in my opinion.

A number of Debian members agree with you. However, due to Debian's fairly obtuse democratic process, systemd was selected as the default init for jessie. As Douglas Adams once wrote, "This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." Even at the time a number of people were upset about the vote and feel the final decision was coerced. Bear in mind, there's always Devuan, the project created as a reaction to the decision, with a stated goal of providing "init freedom", and in practical terms to maintain a systemd-free Debian fork.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:24 pm**

dreamer wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 2:15 pm My only objection was your impression that Debian is some kind of victim (if I read that right). If Debian is a victim it must be to self-harm. The Universal Operating System shouldn’t be tied to systemd in my opinion.

This Debian systemd decision still gets to me. I'm a happy Windows user, but I wanted something different.

No worries at all! To clarify I wouldn't say 'victim' I just wondered why they didn't exert more apparent influence, your answer clarifies this, they internally voted for these things as a 'divided kingdom' so to speak, I've come away more informed, thank you!

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 11:29 pm**

The death of systemd-shim and the broken state of Docker on Arch Linux ARM share the same cause: cgroups v1 is no longer enabled on the kernel starting with version 6.12. It's a shame too because MX was basically unique in the ability to switch init systems on-the-fly.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 11:32 pm**

siamhie wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 10:46 am
LU344928 wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:27 am Thanks anyway.

I wonder how Slackware users will cope. KDE's been default for some time and Slackware's been opposed to systemd from the very start of the affair. Then again, Patrick is quite a wizard so he may find a work around.
@LU344928 I booted up AlienBob's latest Slackware15 -current live ISO (Aug 5th 2025) but they are still on KDE 5.27

Apparently Eric is still working on getting his tooling up to date for KDE 6. Someone else has already gotten a repo ready in the meantime though.

Posted: **Wed Aug 06, 2025 11:59 pm**

daemonspudguy wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 11:32 pm
siamhie wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 10:46 am
LU344928 wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:27 am Thanks anyway.

I wonder how Slackware users will cope. KDE's been default for some time and Slackware's been opposed to systemd from the very start of the affair. Then again, Patrick is quite a wizard so he may find a work around.
@LU344928 I booted up AlienBob's latest Slackware15 -current live ISO (Aug 5th 2025) but they are still on KDE 5.27

Apparently Eric is still working on getting his tooling up to date for KDE 6. Someone else has already gotten a repo ready in the meantime though.

+1
Good to know. I currently dual boot MX-25 fluxbox and Slackware15 -current fluxbox.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2025 7:04 am**

Debian13 is two days away from announced release date: how soon will MXlinux go to new version? Any release date for MXlinux on Debian13,please?
I love MX on my iMac: it's so fast and smooth!
Thank you to developers for this awesome OS

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2025 7:13 am**

It'll be ready when it is ready.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2025 12:50 pm**

LU344928 wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:27 am
siamhie wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:24 pm
LU344928 wrote: Tue Aug 05, 2025 3:11 pm

Got it.

Considering it states, "At this time, the KDE iso will ship with systemd only" it looks like I'll be sticking with MX23 for some time.

Unless I decide to switch to Fluxbox... Xfce is out of the question.
@LU344928 You do have another choice.
You could try installing the sysVinit MX-25 XFCE ISO and add kde-full from the enabled tab in MX Package Installer.
You will still have access to all of the MX Tools. I've done this in the past.

*never mind. It has been pointed out that KDE 5.25 has switched to systemd. The MX devs made it possible to boot to SysVinit but I guess KDE6 is different in that respect.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/KDE#systemd_startup
Thanks anyway.

I wonder how Slackware users will cope. KDE's been default for some time and Slackware's been opposed to systemd from the very start of the affair. Then again, Patrick is quite a wizard so he may find a work around.

Consider that KDE is still available in the various BSDs which are completely incompatible with systemd, including a recently introduced FreeBSD install media with KDE.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2025 2:16 pm**

jeffreyC wrote: Thu Aug 07, 2025 12:50 pm Consider that KDE is still available in the various BSDs which are completely incompatible with systemd, including a recently introduced FreeBSD install media with KDE.

Imagine that, BSD might be the savior or they might give up on KDE..... probably the latter inevitably.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2025 4:42 pm**

rambo919 wrote: Thu Aug 07, 2025 2:16 pm
jeffreyC wrote: Thu Aug 07, 2025 12:50 pm Consider that KDE is still available in the various BSDs which are completely incompatible with systemd, including a recently introduced FreeBSD install media with KDE.
Imagine that, BSD might be the savior or they might give up on KDE..... probably the latter inevitably.

Wayland is supported on FreeBSD and NetBSD, and AFAIK KDE has no plans on adding hard dependencies on systemd a la GNOME.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:26 am**

F.Y.I. Some feedback on the upcoming changes:
from www.theregister.com/2025/08/06/

On a personal note: Left Ubuntu when they forced systemD on me.
I have never, to my knowledge, booted systemD since.

Mike

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:30 am**

Why people are not capable to read and also spread their misunderstanding?

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 2:59 am**

Personally, I don't think we're ever going to see any major movement against systemd in the Linux community until some major problems start happening. That's usually how things go. If something works, the prevailing motion is no motion at all.

Wayland is an excellent example of this. X11 is the standard. It's been working for quite a while (for the most part), and Wayland is still not up to feature parity with it last I read, so there is still resistance against it in most of the Linux community.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 4:18 am**

Funny thing, much as I love KDE... I could probably migrate to XFCE if Dolphin can be guaranteed to work properly on it.

But in practice it's just not worth the effort to try that given how Dolphin basically depends on KDE and the bloat would be annoying.

Adrian wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:30 am Why people are not capable to read and also spread their misunderstanding?

Unless you are specific what you are annoyed about we are gonna have to start a guessing game....

daemonspudguy wrote: Thu Aug 07, 2025 4:42 pm Wayland is supported on FreeBSD and NetBSD, and AFAIK KDE has no plans on adding hard dependencies on systemd a la GNOME.

They wont bother.... they will just proceed as they have and pretend only systemd exists when it comes to new features, a game of inches.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:07 am**

Arnox wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 2:59 amPersonally, I don't think we're ever going to see any major movement against systemd in the Linux community until some major problems start happening. That's usually how things go. If something works, the prevailing motion is no motion at all.

Thats somewhat true, but what we are seeing is that systemd solved a number of issues with sysvinit. For instance, startup dependencies, parallelisation of such, the use of consistent format for unit service files, dynamically adjusting to conditions and being a process/service supervision suite. Sure there are better alternatives out there, but at this stage, practically anything seems better than sysvinit.

Arnox wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 2:59 amWayland is an excellent example of this. X11 is the standard. It's been working for quite a while (for the most part), and Wayland is still not up to feature parity with it last I read, so there is still resistance against it in most of the Linux community.

It doesn't have to be up to feature parity, it just has to work. And clearly we have desktop environments changing across to Wayland and finding that their compositing models align very well with it (KDE being an example). I noticed on my (considerably old) laptop, Wayland actually works whereas the X11 session lags. This has been the case even back when KDE's Wayland session was notoriously buggy.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:10 am**

rambo919 wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 4:18 am
Adrian wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:30 am Why people are not capable to read and also spread their misunderstanding?
Unless you are specific what you are annoyed about we are gonna have to start a guessing game....

I was commenting on the stuff I read in theregister link, for instance:

If that's still true, and MX Linux will now only support KDE on Wayland, then my interest in it goes way down.

It's not true. And it's clearly explained in the announcement, but let's comment on things that are not true....

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:18 am**

Adrian wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:10 am I was commenting on the stuff I read in theregister link, for instance:
If that's still true, and MX Linux will now only support KDE on Wayland, then my interest in it goes way down.
It's not true. And it's clearly explained in the announcement, but let's comment on things that are not true....

I think it's a matter of semantic misunderstanding, it was not spelled out well enough for everyone.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:46 am**

rambo919 wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:18 am
Adrian wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:10 am I was commenting on the stuff I read in theregister link, for instance:
If that's still true, and MX Linux will now only support KDE on Wayland, then my interest in it goes way down.
It's not true. And it's clearly explained in the announcement, but let's comment on things that are not true....
I think it's a matter of semantic misunderstanding, it was not spelled out well enough for everyone.

Really? To me this is pretty clear:

The KDE iso will default to wayland sessions. X11 sessions are also included.

How can somebody read from this "MX Linux will now only support KDE on Wayland"?

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 9:09 am**

@Adrian
As it happens, immediately following the post you quoted,

(A regrettable KDE choice)

there is a reply from the article's author :

The MX blog post says:

> The KDE iso will default to wayland sessions. X11 sessions are also included.

You can choose X11 if you prefer, yes.

and further explanation in following posts...

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:13 am**

Is there an approximate releasedate for MX 25? Or will it just be released when it's done?

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:22 am**

It'll be done when it is done. :)

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:43 am**

Markus85 wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:13 am Is there an approximate releasedate for MX 25? Or will it just be released when it's done?

You can estimate based on this.
viewtopic.php?p=826362#p826362
I didn't bother to look up other past releases. The time frame last time might not be the same now.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 11:33 am**

Eadwine Rose wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:22 am It'll be done when it is done. :)

The peasants are revolting

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 11:39 am**

be fair. the devs work hard and they are constantly tweaking and bettering your experience.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 11:52 am**

Adrian wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:46 am Really? To me this is pretty clear:
The KDE iso will default to wayland sessions. X11 sessions are also included.
How can somebody read from this "MX Linux will now only support KDE on Wayland"?

I hear ya.... some people stop reading halfway through though and the rest is white noise.

Personally I remember speed reading through the blog post and having to restart because I was tired and did not get it the first time but something felt off. Now assuming no one did any sneaky ninja edits.... this might be more likely the cause for the misunderstanding.... no one pays attention when they read anymore and only looks to key terms. Its even worse with the "media" class that increasingly fakes news if there is no news for the drama clicks.

And then a lot of people (even those that should know better) don't understand that you can easily change which display server to log into. This became obvious in the comments.

A lot of people are simply paranoid about X11 being killed off left right and center which probably also fed into the circus. Cortisone spikes from reading something you dislike causing you to only read the thing that caused the spike to begin with instead of what is actually there.

I think writing it the other way around with something like "While the KDE iso will still support X11 sessions it will initially default to wayland unless this changed by the user at login" would have worked better.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:07 pm**

rambo919 wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 11:33 am
Eadwine Rose wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:22 am It'll be done when it is done. :)
The peasants are revolting

I have a feeling is not going to take long we are already building alphas that work fine, we just need test a bit more, slap the new art on top we should be ready.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:18 pm**

Adrian wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:07 pm
rambo919 wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 11:33 am
Eadwine Rose wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:22 am It'll be done when it is done. :)
The peasants are revolting
I have a feeling is not going to take long we are already building alphas that work fine, we just need test a bit more, slap the new art on top we should be ready.

Ugh personally I can wait if need be, rather have it late but functional than rushed but broken.

It's just funny to me how eager everyone is to finally escape DB12.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:30 pm**

Hear ya, we are not planning to release anything rushed and/or broken.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 1:07 pm**

rambo919 wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:18 pm It's just funny to me how eager everyone is to finally escape DB12.

Two years is a long time in the software world and there are a bunch of updates that people have either waited patiently up until now to get pushed upstream or have had to contort their machines to run, through Flatpaks and AppImages and Nix, oh my.

Arch users don't have to develop this kind of patience. Debian users appreciate that brief two- or three-month window of time when they can apt-get something they want and the version installed isn't ancient. For one sweet moment, Debian is both relatively stable and relatively up-to-date. It's nice. It's understandable that folks are eager to have that experience again, however brief it may be.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 1:23 pm**

DukeComposed wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 1:07 pm
rambo919 wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:18 pm It's just funny to me how eager everyone is to finally escape DB12.
Two years is a long time in the software world and there are a bunch of updates that people have either waited patiently up until now to get pushed upstream or have had to contort their machines to run, through Flatpaks and AppImages and Nix, oh my.

Arch users don't have to develop this kind of patience. Debian users appreciate that brief two- or three-month window of time when they can apt-get something they want and the version installed isn't ancient. For one sweet moment, Debian is both relatively stable and relatively up-to-date. It's nice. It's understandable that folks are eager to have that experience again, however brief it may be.

True... but I don't think there is another Stable-based Distro with the sheer number and variety of Backports that MX has, there is a pretty small list of potential things that may get missed and often a visit to the Repository request forum shortens that list further..

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 1:23 pm**

DukeComposed wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 1:07 pm
rambo919 wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:18 pm It's just funny to me how eager everyone is to finally escape DB12.
Two years is a long time in the software world and there are a bunch of updates that people have either waited patiently up until now to get pushed upstream or have had to contort their machines to run, through Flatpaks and AppImages and Nix, oh my.

Arch users don't have to develop this kind of patience. Debian users appreciate that brief two- or three-month window of time when they can apt-get something they want and the version installed isn't ancient. For one sweet moment, Debian is both relatively stable and relatively up-to-date. It's nice. It's understandable that folks are eager to have that experience again, however brief it may be.

The backports help too as well as MXPI in bringing updated software to stable.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 2:03 pm**

DukeComposed wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 1:07 pm Two years is a long time in the software world and there are a bunch of updates that people have either waited patiently up until now to get pushed upstream or have had to contort their machines to run, through Flatpaks and AppImages and Nix, oh my.

Arch users don't have to develop this kind of patience. Debian users appreciate that brief two- or three-month window of time when they can apt-get something they want and the version installed isn't ancient. For one sweet moment, Debian is both relatively stable and relatively up-to-date. It's nice. It's understandable that folks are eager to have that experience again, however brief it may be.

I am actually oddly comfy by now.... my major curiosity is about how KDE6 is and what fabulous new bugs it will have to annoy me with.... have gotten used to the old ones hahaha.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2025 5:53 pm**

rambo919 wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:18 pm It's just funny to me how eager everyone is to finally escape DB12.

Coming from older versions of Windows I can appreciate software that doesn't radically change for a few years. However I moved my main laptop away because I found the KDE wayland session (back then) to be severely lacking and full of bugs, despite it performing substantially and noticeably better than the X11 session.
I have become quite used to new software on my machine that I run Fedora on it. I still run MX but on VMs and build machines, and a Debian base is perfect in applications that require some degree of API/ABI stability and support.

rambo919 wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 2:03 pmI am actually oddly comfy by now.... my major curiosity is about how KDE6 is and what fabulous new bugs it will have to annoy me with.... have gotten used to the old ones hahaha.

Upgrading from 5.27 (the last of the 5.x releases) to 6.0 there wasn't much of a difference in the UI other than the floating panel by default (which I'm not keen on, I turned it off). It was much more stable with the Wayland session and smoother and felt more refined. The KDE Wayland code split didn't occur until 6.4 so Debian's version will miss out on that change for the time being. There are some big internal changes expected soon (for instance, replacing SDDM with their own login manager) but won't make it into Debian 13 or MX Linux until at least 2027.

tl;dr don't expect any wow-factor features with v6.3.4, but I expect it will be much more stable.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 4:48 am**

daemonspudguy wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 11:32 pm
siamhie wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 10:46 am
LU344928 wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:27 am Thanks anyway.

I wonder how Slackware users will cope. KDE's been default for some time and Slackware's been opposed to systemd from the very start of the affair. Then again, Patrick is quite a wizard so he may find a work around.
@LU344928 I booted up AlienBob's latest Slackware15 -current live ISO (Aug 5th 2025) but they are still on KDE 5.27

Apparently Eric is still working on getting his tooling up to date for KDE 6. Someone else has already gotten a repo ready in the meantime though.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 4:53 am**

AK-47 wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:07 am Sure there are better alternatives out there, but at this stage, practically anything seems better than sysvinit.

The year is 2095. You show up at the annual Devuan developers' conference with a burning question: is SysVinit finally obsolete?

The small group of programmers, most of whom are sporting long white beards, seem taken aback by the question and give confused glances at each other. Finally one of them speaks:

"At the beginning of this century Debian abandoned its roots to switch to systemd. We, the steadfast, the true, decided to stick to what was elegant and simple and right and Unix, even though this decision often came at high personal and professional cost. Although Debian describes itself as the 'universal operating system', even today there are several models of vintage toasters that are not compatible with systemd. Our tradition has paid off in many respects, but none greater than this: we can now hold claim to being a more universal operating system than the 'universal operating system' while offering the world init freedom, and our source code is much simpler to boot. (And need I even mention the ThornWorm debacle of 2074, from which SysVinit users were completely immune?) While other legends like Gentoo and the BSDs died out decades ago, we persist and continue the tradition. So no, SysVinit is NOT obsolete; in fact, it is more important than ever!"

The programmers burst into applause and start patting each other on the back as they head off to lunch. You are left alone in the room with the unshakable feeling that perhaps these odd wizard-like people are right...

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments ... _favor_of/

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 5:24 am**

@BitterTruth Point of clarification - antiX is completely systemd-free unlike MX which seeks to have both inits co-exist (until MX25). Your earlier post made it look like MX and antiX were the same in having both systemd and sysV.

But antiX is different from Devuan in that antiX is actually still directly using Debian's repos, but with a separate nosystemd repo of their own.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 6:55 am**

LU344928 wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 4:53 amThe year is 2095. You show up at the annual Devuan developers' conference

when you suddenly sober up and discover you are actually in the middle of a cemetery?

LU344928 wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 4:53 am(And need I even mention the ThornWorm debacle of 2074, from which SysVinit users were completely immune?)

Or the ShellShockSuppository trojan of 2079, which only affected SysVinit users but not systemd users?

On a more realistic note, who is to say Linux will even survive that long? There could be a better OS out there by then altogether which is better adapted to that technological climate.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 8:18 am**

Not to mention pretty much everyone participating in this thread will quite likely be dead.. Makes the init system issue seem kinda ephemeral.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:06 am**

AK-47 wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 6:55 am On a more realistic note, who is to say Linux will even survive that long? There could be a better OS out there by then altogether which is better adapted to that technological climate.

The year is 2030, Debian is completely woke and non-conformists are being purged.

The year is 2035, after a brief war Devuan has been purged of the Debian 5th column seeking to subvert it's pure dedication to code over ideology and the great Linux cold war is undeniable. The brothers continue to diverge in code parity as the conflict intensifies and Devuan is forced to ideologically develop to more effectively defend itself.

The year is 2050, Linux is dead. The cold war had turned hot as activists of both sides increasingly turned to physical means of persuasion. The corporations had briefly held a position of dominance and had almost consolidated their once unspoken of power, then disaster struck as worldwide mass eruptions of discontent led to corporate disinvestment, due to the sudden lack of funding only national Distributions were left standing and authorities had heavily cracked down on all non-Government groups as a public order measure. A international body aiming to govern the code is formed in the new United Empires Board which had replaced the defunct United Nations after WW3 (which could be called the AI wars but this is still debated) led to the Imperial Renaissance that had gradually rendered the idea of Nationhood obsolete as the new empires absorbed most of the surviving countries.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:16 am**

People who use the word "woke" in a non self-referential way usually don't know what it means (or they think it means whatever they imagine it means)
Also, in my experience the Venn diagram of people who are upset they can no longer use the n-word and the people who use "woke" in this manner is almost a circle.

I would stay away from that word...

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:20 am**

Adrian wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:16 am People who use the word "woke" in a non self-referential way usually don't know what it means (or they think it means whatever they imagine it means)
Also, in my experience the Venn diagram of people who are upset they can no longer use the n-word and the people who use "woke" in this manner is almost a circle.

I would stay away from that word...

Any response to that would get someone banned.....

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:23 am**

I am sitting here with my fish.. slapping it gently in my hand, warming up...

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:23 am**

Eadwine Rose wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:23 am I am sitting here with my fish.. slapping it gently in my hand, warming up...

Did you intend it to sound so dirty?

EDIT: I'll just see myself out before my sense of humor harms me...

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:25 am**

Be mindful of your posting.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:33 am**

LU344928 wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 4:53 am The year is 2095.

The coming year will finally be the year of “Linux on the Desktop.”

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:37 am**

Adrian wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:16 amAlso, in my experience the Venn diagram of people who are upset they can no longer use the n-word and the people who use "woke" in this manner is almost a circle.

to be fair, I would be a tad upset if I could no longer use any word, N or otherwise.

siamhie wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:33 am
LU344928 wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 4:53 am The year is 2095.
The coming year will finally be the year of “Linux on the Desktop.”

I think that would be 2096 actually.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:58 am**

AK-47 wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:37 am
siamhie wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:33 am
LU344928 wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 4:53 am The year is 2095.
The coming year will finally be the year of “Linux on the Desktop.”
I think that would be 2096 actually.

I know. The running joke is that next year will be the year of “Linux on the Desktop” that was spewed on blog posts back in the early 2000's.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 10:13 am**

siamhie wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:58 amI know. The running joke is that next year will be the year of “Linux on the Desktop” that was spewed on blog posts back in the early 2000's.

ah, gotcha. Funny enough, in North Korea it is already Year of the Linux Desktop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS
(based on Fedora it probably uses systemd too)

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 11:14 am**

Hi Folks,

I'm confused by the (seeming) contradiction in the MX-25 announcement in news:

"Official releases for Fluxbox and Xfce will have separate isos featuring systemd and sysVinit respectively. "

"If folks want a totally systemd-free distro using Debian repositories check out antixlinux.com for more information."

Does this mean that if I download and install MX-25 XFCE with sysV, that I will somehow be restricted from using certain Debian 13 applications, because they will be "systemd-only"?

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 11:39 am**

AK-47 wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 10:13 am
siamhie wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:58 amI know. The running joke is that next year will be the year of “Linux on the Desktop” that was spewed on blog posts back in the early 2000's.
ah, gotcha. Funny enough, in North Korea it is already Year of the Linux Desktop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS
(based on Fedora it probably uses systemd too)

I guess we will never know seeing as it's a closed source distro that looks like a mac starting with version 3. https://www.northkoreatech.org/2014/01/ ... -goes-mac/

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 11:43 am**

bradhamilton wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 11:14 am
Does this mean that if I download and install MX-25 XFCE with sysV, that I will somehow be restricted from using certain Debian 13 applications, because they will be "systemd-only"?

If you currently run programs that require booting to systemd, then you would download the systemd version of the ISO, otherwise grab the sysVinit ISO.
That goes for both XFCE and fluxbox. KDE will only be released as a systemd ISO.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 11:49 am**

How do you know if a program requires systemd?

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 12:09 pm**

siamhie wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 11:43 am
bradhamilton wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 11:14 am
Does this mean that if I download and install MX-25 XFCE with sysV, that I will somehow be restricted from using certain Debian 13 applications, because they will be "systemd-only"?
If you currently run programs that require booting to systemd, then you would download the systemd version of the ISO, otherwise grab the sysVinit ISO.
That goes for both XFCE and fluxbox. KDE will only be released as a systemd ISO.

Thanks! - I understand - but if a Debian 13 app needs systemD, will it be suggested that we just don't use it, rather than bother the devs by asking for a fix?

I'll ask the relevant antiX question in their forum, unless a knowledgeable dev here can answer.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 12:23 pm**

I would wonder, considering systemd will be the default offered (if I read that right), if there are things that DON'T run on systemd. I wager it all should, right?

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 12:36 pm**

just out of curiosity; last week it was mentioned that

Our systemd-shim packages, which in the past allowed us to ship both systemd and sysVinit on a single iso, are not currently workable with the latest 6.12 kernels from Debian.

does that incompatibility persist with (say) a liquorix, antiX or MX-configured & compiled kernel ?

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 12:56 pm**

Eadwine Rose wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 12:23 pm I would wonder, considering systemd will be the default offered (if I read that right), if there are things that DON'T run on systemd. I wager it all should, right?

It will mostly affect anything that has services in its package, usually server-related or driver-related software or complex programs that deal with systemd. I have certainly seen a handful of those and this is since I first started with MX Linux.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:00 pm**

Oh that is just spiffy then.. I figured I'd just go with the default, and things'd be dandy.

Earlier @BV206 asked: How do you know if a program requires systemd?
Now I ask: how do you know if a program won't work with systemd?

Kindergarten version please... not because y'all are too complex, but because my understanding only goes so far with all this.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:21 pm**

Eadwine Rose wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 12:23 pm I would wonder, considering systemd will be the default offered (if I read that right), if there are things that DON'T run on systemd. I wager it all should, right?

All the desktop ISO's (MX-19,MX-21,MX-23) I install (XFCE, KDE and fluxbox) are booted to systemd and I've never run into an issue with the preinstalled software.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:25 pm**

siamhie wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:21 pm
Eadwine Rose wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 12:23 pm I would wonder, considering systemd will be the default offered (if I read that right), if there are things that DON'T run on systemd. I wager it all should, right?

All the desktop ISO's (MX-19,MX-21,MX-23) I install (XFCE, KDE and fluxbox) are booted to systemd and I've never run into an issue with the preinstalled software.

Ditto, except I use MX KDE. Occasionally boot XFCE but rarely.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:35 pm**

and as another perspective... I use xfce and sysvinit exclusively and have had to do some 'tweaking' to get some software working. (including boot to systemd to install it), however I have been able to get all of those 'systemd only' software running on sysvinit - with a little coaxing :-)

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:36 pm**

The arguments against using systemD currently seem largely theoretical, based on the rather obtuse way one needs to look at logs to discover issues, as well as size and complexity.

I used to run arch-based distros, and would run into issues that seemed to take a long time to fix - I came "here", hoping that escaping systemD might lead to more stable user experiences; I've not been disappointed currently, but I wonder what the future holds; that's why I'm asking these kinds of questions. I know that there are no "crystal balls", and it's good to hear that some of you are not experiencing issues running systemD in MX.

I'm still trying to decide whether or not to stick with KDE, or move to XFCE in the next release.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:43 pm**

CharlesV wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:35 pm and as another perspective... I use xfce and sysvinit exclusively and have had to do some 'tweaking' to get some software working. (including boot to systemd to install it), however I have been able to get all of those 'systemd only' software running on sysvinit - with a little coaxing :-)

Thanks - that's helpful! Since I'm not really a "tweaker", that's another data point to consider. I just don't have the time needed to learn to tweak, as my "golden years" are almost upon me, and I'd like to enjoy them with my family.

I'm beginning to think that I need to start considering giving up (most? all??) electronic devices in order to gain a measure of peace in my time left. I'm currently experiencing a major time-suck "updating" (HA!) my wife's laptop to Windows 11 - those of you who no longer depend on Redmond's evil child should be grateful!

: - )

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:43 pm**

The obvious thing to me ( ie difference of systemd vs Sysvinit) is that the issues I have encountered seem to be rather simple to fix. Yes, you have to track it down, but in my experience typically the issue is a smaller, contained fix and 'simple'.

Granted, I have not done that much with systemd - guess I will be though :-) )

And while I think the KDE system has gotten WAY better.. I found this same issue with tweaking things. Some things are very easy to tweak... but I have seen nothing that compares to tweaking xfce - literally you can do anything with it.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:46 pm**

Eadwine Rose wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:00 pmEarlier @BV206 asked: How do you know if a program requires systemd?
Now I ask: how do you know if a program won't work with systemd?

I guess the best way is to test it and find out, if it doesn't work then try in a VM with sysvinit and compare the result. Given that systemd has been around in the Debian ecosystem since version 8 (Jessie) there has been 10 years for packages and programs to adjust, so if you are running from the official Debian repository you will be safe on a systemd system. Debian has more info here: https://wiki.debian.org/systemd

At this stage you are more likely to find a program not working on a non-systemd system than a program not working on a systemd system (unless it's super old).

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:47 pm**

bradhamilton wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:43 pm
CharlesV wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:35 pm and as another perspective... I use xfce and sysvinit exclusively and have had to do some 'tweaking' to get some software working. (including boot to systemd to install it), however I have been able to get all of those 'systemd only' software running on sysvinit - with a little coaxing :-)
Thanks - that's helpful! Since I'm not really a "tweaker", that's another data point to consider. I just don't have the time needed to learn to tweak, as my "golden years" are almost upon me, and I'd like to enjoy them with my family.

I'm beginning to think that I need to start considering giving up (most? all??) electronic devices in order to gain a measure of peace in my time left. I'm currently experiencing a major time-suck "updating" (HA!) my wife's laptop to Windows 11 - those of you who no longer depend on Redmond's evil child should be grateful!

: - )

I SO understand! Just as a reference for you too... I have quite a few clients that are "in golden years" (75 to 88!) and ALL of them on linux love it. For several I have turned off the update notification, and I update them a couple of times a year, or if there is an issue on the machine. The reality of linux is that a) they are not forced to update, and b) most of them dont go to bad places, and c) firefox (with ublockorigin) and thunderbird... keep them away from most issues.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 2:01 pm**

AK-47 wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:46 pm
Eadwine Rose wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:00 pmEarlier @BV206 asked: How do you know if a program requires systemd?
Now I ask: how do you know if a program won't work with systemd?
I guess the best way is to test it and find out, if it doesn't work then try in a VM with sysvinit and compare the result. Given that systemd has been around in the Debian ecosystem since version 8 (Jessie) there has been 10 years for packages and programs to adjust, so if you are running from the official Debian repository you will be safe on a systemd system. Debian has more info here: https://wiki.debian.org/systemd

At this stage you are more likely to find a program not working on a non-systemd system than a program not working on a systemd system (unless it's super old).

Thanks.. yeah.. I barely get anything outside of the general population, so... I am just gonna start out with systemd. If you hear a loud explosion and then me coming in ranting, then you'll know something went wonky

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 2:34 pm**

As far as just running the OS, I have noticed no difference in sysvinit and systemd. The only noticeable thing for me is sysvinit boots several seconds faster.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 2:34 pm**

AK-47 wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:46 pm [...]
I guess the best way is to test it and find out, if it doesn't work then try in a VM with sysvinit and compare the result. Given that systemd has been around in the Debian ecosystem since version 8 (Jessie) there has been 10 years for packages and programs to adjust, so if you are running from the official Debian repository you will be safe on a systemd system. Debian has more info here: https://wiki.debian.org/systemd

At this stage you are more likely to find a program not working on a non-systemd system than a program not working on a systemd system (unless it's super old).

Thanks for the link - when I went there, this caught my eye:

"systemd hangs on startup or shutdown
Sometimes it is necessary to investigate why systemd hangs on startup or on reboot/shutdown."

Huh????? Do the Debian devs consider this to be a standard "feature"? If so, then that's another data point *against* using systemD - if it was a bug, or even a "feature", it should have been either fixed or "enhanced" - by removing the "feature".

: - )

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 3:12 pm**

bradhamilton wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 2:34 pm "systemd hangs on startup or shutdown
Sometimes it is necessary to investigate why systemd hangs on startup or on reboot/shutdown."

Huh????? Do the Debian devs consider this to be a standard "feature"? If so, then that's another data point *against* using systemD - if it was a bug, or even a "feature", it should have been either fixed or "enhanced" - by removing the "feature".

To be fair... I have had my share of hangs at shut down without systemd.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 8:24 pm**

The ship has landed.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2025 8:28 pm**

Meanwhile over at the antiX forum they be like ....... :band:

I mean think about it. They have all their eggs in one basket and they don't seem worried.

Having 2 full separate isos is actually a good thing. It means that we no longer need systemd-shim to run SYSV. (No offense to the systemd-shim maintainer who put in the hard work all these years)

We can have a fully fledged sysv iso that can stand on it's own now. Remember Systemd-shim was a band aid not a permanent cure. 10+ years ago (or whenever it was that debian made that fateful decision), the devs had no choice but to use systemd-shim since systemd seemed like the only way forward.

Now, finally MX25 can actually be "systemd-free" ......... whilst also not compromising on systemd

Having 2 systems in 1 was getting convoluted anyway. Twice the amount of settings/configs to search through, twice the amount of init stuff to learn.

I for one celebrate this news since I am a SysV neckbeard.

EDIT: I do feel for the KDE people though. I'm pretty optimistic though that the devs will be able to do something about it

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:38 am**

As a KDE user, who used sysV and X11 all the time with MX23, is there a way i can find out if systemd and Wayland with MX25 KDE will work for my use case, other than trying it out and „learn the hard way“ that it does not? :-)

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:48 am**

debianix wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:38 am is there a way i can find out if systemd and Wayland with MX25 KDE will work for my use case

Well I don't know your use case, but considering that MX-25 doesn't exist yet that sounds like it's a bit of a tall order at the moment.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 1:01 am**

debianix wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:38 am As a KDE user, who used sysV and X11 all the time with MX23, is there a way i can find out if systemd and Wayland with MX25 KDE will work for my use case, other than trying it out and „learn the hard way“ that it does not? :-)

Legitimate questions, for X11 it's just a matter of a switch at the log in, and I think it's going to remember the last selection, so it's super easy.
For syvinit it's a bit more complicated because it's a bit harder to switch the running init system, but I think we should be able to provide a how-to for that -- or if you don't even want to touch systemd (lest you feel impure) you can always install Xfce or Fluxbox flavor with sysvinit and just install KDE on top.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 1:38 am**

@Adrian just curious, but if it is possible to have KDE running on sysvinit (even via the roundabout way) why not just make the iso available to stop newbies getting confused? Call it a respin if you like.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 2:55 am**

bradhamilton wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 2:34 pmThanks for the link - when I went there, this caught my eye:

"systemd hangs on startup or shutdown
Sometimes it is necessary to investigate why systemd hangs on startup or on reboot/shutdown."

Huh????? Do the Debian devs consider this to be a standard "feature"? If so, then that's another data point *against* using systemD - if it was a bug, or even a "feature", it should have been either fixed or "enhanced" - by removing the "feature".

: - )

It is software. Software has bugs. Software can do funny things. There are talking points for and against, and the Debian wiki also contains this article: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 5:15 am**

How does one see.. later on when all is running and such, and when users ask for help.. can you determine from the QSI which version is running, systemd or sysvintit?

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 5:46 am**

@Eadwine Rose
From my QSI:

Info:
Processes: 270 Uptime: 2d 6h 8m wakeups: 1 Memory: 7.6 GiB used: 1.98 GiB (26.1%) Init: SysVinit

No experience with systemD
Mike

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 5:50 am**

Eadwine Rose wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 5:15 am How does one see.. later on when all is running and such, and when users ask for help.. can you determine from the QSI which version is running, systemd or sysvintit?

Because it says so?

Code: Select all

Kernel: 6.6.12-1-liquorix-amd64 [6.6-16~mx23ahs] arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 12.2.0 parameters: audit=0
    intel_pstate=disable rcupdate.rcu_expedited=1 BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-6.6.12-1-liquorix-amd64
    root=UUID=<filter> ro quiet splash init=/lib/systemd/systemd

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:05 am**

j2mcgreg wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 5:50 am Because it says so?

Code: Select all

Kernel: 6.6.12-1-liquorix-amd64 [6.6-16~mx23ahs] arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 12.2.0 parameters: audit=0
    intel_pstate=disable rcupdate.rcu_expedited=1 BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-6.6.12-1-liquorix-amd64
    root=UUID=<filter> ro quiet splash init=/lib/systemd/systemd

Checking the "Info" section at the very end of the report is the way that always works. If the init system isn't set as an explicit parameter like in the example above, it will not show in the kernel section.

Code: Select all

Info:
  Memory: total: N/A available: 7.64 GiB used: 2.38 GiB (31.2%)
  Processes: 263 Power: uptime: 19m states: freeze,mem,disk suspend: deep avail: s2idle
    wakeups: 0 hibernate: platform avail: shutdown, reboot, suspend, test_resume image: 3 GiB
    services: upowerd,xfce4-power-manager Init: systemd v: 252 target: graphical (5)
    default: graphical tool: systemctl

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:07 am**

Ahhh thanks for clarifying :)

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:35 am**

Nokkaelaein wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:05 am
j2mcgreg wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 5:50 am Because it says so?
Code: Select all
Kernel: 6.6.12-1-liquorix-amd64 [6.6-16~mx23ahs] arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 12.2.0 parameters: audit=0
    intel_pstate=disable rcupdate.rcu_expedited=1 BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-6.6.12-1-liquorix-amd64
    root=UUID=<filter> ro quiet splash init=/lib/systemd/systemd
Checking the "Info" section at the very end of the report is the way that always works. If the init system isn't set as an explicit parameter like in the example above, it will not show in the kernel section.
Code: Select all
Info:
  Memory: total: N/A available: 7.64 GiB used: 2.38 GiB (31.2%)
  Processes: 263 Power: uptime: 19m states: freeze,mem,disk suspend: deep avail: s2idle
    wakeups: 0 hibernate: platform avail: shutdown, reboot, suspend, test_resume image: 3 GiB
    services: upowerd,xfce4-power-manager Init: systemd v: 252 target: graphical (5)
    default: graphical tool: systemctl

But that's the point. SystemD has to be set by the MX user, so it shows in the QSI. If it doesn't show, then in MX it is safe to assume that the default SysV init is in play because any other init would be indicated.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:45 am**

j2mcgreg wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:35 am But that's the point. SystemD has to be set by the MX user, so it shows in the QSI. If it doesn't show, then in MX it is safe to assume that the default SysV init is in play because any other init would be indicated.

MX 25 isn't a multi init system where SysV is always the default and systemd is set by the user, requiring this parameter after the fact.

(Also, on an earlier MX, the user has the option to install the provided systemd-sysv package, turning the system into a systemd one. Personally, I've turned all my own systems to systemd ones this year - deploying from an ISO of a systemd only installation prepared with the said systemd-sysv package - and I can confirm none of the systems show systemd in the boot parameter list. In other words, they are systemd installations where the init system doesn't show in the QSI kernel section. On these systems, too, the QSI shows the init system in the Info section, like it should. Summing up, the Info section shows the init system no matter what your configuration is and always shows that info, and looking for that in the kernel section presupposes that there is an explicit parameter present.)

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:47 am**

debianix wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:38 am As a KDE user, who used sysV and X11 all the time with MX23, is there a way i can find out if systemd and Wayland with MX25 KDE will work for my use case, other than trying it out and „learn the hard way“ that it does not? :-)

If you do need to test something for now, install Debian 13 (now that it's out) on a test box or VM and see what happens. That will give you plenty of time for MX 25. Or you can wait for an MX 25 beta.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:53 am**

CharlesV wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:43 pm I have seen nothing that compares to tweaking xfce - literally you can do anything with it.

Would that include the complete removal of Thunar and replacing it with, say, PCManFM? Or maybe it can't be removed at all and another file manager would just need to 'co-exist'.

That's my main gripe with Xfce... oh and the screensaver issue, which never seems to get fixed. I can recall complaints about it going as far back as MX18, I think.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 7:25 am**

Nokkaelaein wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:45 am
j2mcgreg wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:35 am But that's the point. SystemD has to be set by the MX user, so it shows in the QSI. If it doesn't show, then in MX it is safe to assume that the default SysV init is in play because any other init would be indicated.
MX 25 isn't a multi init system where SysV is always the default and systemd is set by the user, requiring this parameter after the fact.

(Also, on an earlier MX, the user has the option to install the provided systemd-sysv package, turning the system into a systemd one. Personally, I've turned all my own systems to systemd ones this year - deploying from an ISO of a systemd only installation prepared with the said systemd-sysv package - and I can confirm none of the systems show systemd in the boot parameter list. In other words, they are systemd installations where the init system doesn't show in the QSI kernel section. On these systems, too, the QSI shows the init system in the Info section, like it should. Summing up, the Info section shows the init system no matter what your configuration is and always shows that info, and looking for that in the kernel section presupposes that there is an explicit parameter present.)

Thank you. That answers my question. As long as the init system in play is indicted somewhere in the QSI report, that's what matters from a diagnostic viewpoint.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 7:29 am**

j2mcgreg wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 7:25 am As long as the init system in play is indicted somewhere in the QSI report, that's what matters from a diagnostic viewpoint.

No prob, and indeed, I agree; especially now that there will be a dedicated init system per ISO, having this information readily available like this is important.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 8:56 am**

Looks like the MX developers have their hands full with Debian insisting on going with systemD for some unknown reason or reasons.

While I have mixed feelings about systemD I like that the MX developers didn't just throw their hands up and just went with systemD only but by figuring out options to using different ISOs which will give people the choice on which init system to use. I applaud the MX developers on their progress so far.

Sometime in the future the biggest task and nightmare will be when the day will come that Wayland will be thrown at all LINUX developers will be only init used pushing out X11 which will result in some colorful language the will be expressed by all LINUX developers to say the least which I wouldn't blame them if they do so. That will be a time I will not look forward to see that day come.

Thank you MX LINUX developers and all those helping out.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 10:31 am**

Eadwine Rose wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 5:15 am How does one see.. later on when all is running and such, and when users ask for help.. can you determine from the QSI which version is running, systemd or sysvintit?

It will show up at the bottom under Info. Here's what my Debian 13 KDE shows.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 10:33 am**

Thanks Siamhie, post 173 holds a more extensive explanation as to why.

(which I don't get, but that is fine, I got my answer to 'where is it'

)

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 11:01 am**

LU344928 wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:53 am
CharlesV wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:43 pm I have seen nothing that compares to tweaking xfce - literally you can do anything with it.
Would that include the complete removal of Thunar and replacing it with, say, PCManFM? Or maybe it can't be removed at all and another file manager would just need to 'co-exist'.

That's my main gripe with Xfce... oh and the screensaver issue, which never seems to get fixed. I can recall complaints about it going as far back as MX18, I think.

You dont *have* to use thunar, there are many other FM's. I have never tried to just remove Thunar as I like it.. but I do have nautilus on board and use it all the time. And, I have it set to be default on at least two machines.

As for the screensaver, yup that is a buggy one. But, if you install xscreensaver it rocks! zero issues that I have seen.

I am not saying xfce is faultless, it has issues - as do ALL DE's - but pound for pound ... I prefer xfce over anything I have found.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 11:38 am**

Eadwine Rose wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 10:33 am Thanks Siamhie, post 173 holds a more extensive explanation as to why.

(which I don't get, but that is fine, I got my answer to 'where is it' )

That's what I get for living on the West Coast US. Comments are posted while I'm still...

...

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:24 pm**

*chuckles* If you'd used the unread posts link on the top right you would have seen them.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:35 pm**

Eadwine Rose wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:24 pm *chuckles* If you'd used the unread posts link on the top right you would have seen them.

I probably should start doing that instead of diving into the Newest Posts section when I get on the forums.

Just an FYI for everyone. Debian 13 is systemd and I'm not sure when that happened (I rarely keep up).
I knew that their Gnome was systemd in 12 when I was troubleshooting audio issues back then in MX.

Debian 13 XFCE

Debian 13 KDE

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:53 pm**

AK-47 wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 2:55 am
bradhamilton wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 2:34 pmThanks for the link - when I went there, this caught my eye:

"systemd hangs on startup or shutdown
Sometimes it is necessary to investigate why systemd hangs on startup or on reboot/shutdown."

Huh????? Do the Debian devs consider this to be a standard "feature"? If so, then that's another data point *against* using systemD - if it was a bug, or even a "feature", it should have been either fixed or "enhanced" - by removing the "feature".

: - )
It is software. Software has bugs. Software can do funny things. There are talking points for and against, and the Debian wiki also contains this article: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd

I've decided to bite the bullet, and boot KDE MX23 with systemD, as an experiment - unless something(s) go terribly awry, I'll stick with it until the first point release of MX25.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 1:57 pm**

Congrats to the team and community!

After reading the thread I have a few questions on upgrading. First, my recollection, mostly from asqwerth:

- Besides all the reassurances the others have given you, my advice would be that if and when you want to move to MX25, install it FRESH and get a properly set up default system. Don't try to use the unsupported, warning-laden way of carrying out an in-place upgrade of your existing MX23 install to turn it into MX25.

- The installer allows you to do a fresh install of MX25 with the option of preserving your /home

- Before you do your fresh install, use the MX tool called "User Installed Programs" to save a list of the programs in MX23 that you installed yourself (ie, they didn't come with as default with MX23). Save that uip file elsewhere.

- After you have done your fresh install of MX25 preserving home, you can open up User Installed Programs in your new MX25 install, feed it that saved uip file, and it will help you install with a single command most of what you had installed in MX23.

- Exceptions:
1.flatpaks [anyway, once you are in MX25, there could be a newer native version of the program that works well for you so you might not need the flatpak version anymore ]
2. native programs from MX23/Debian12 repos that are no longer found in the MX25/Debian 13 repos
3. things you manually installed from external deb files.

And my questions:

I have 7 MX-23 machines (not all mine, some of relatives), and I plan to upgrade them gradually. Until now I've done it without reinstalling (with perfect results, btw), but this time I want to install fresh, as adviced.

Regarding UEFI vs BIOS, does the installer offer a choice or do we have to do some previous partitioning in a machine that is UEFI capable but is currently partitioned/formatted for BIOS? I seem to remember some hand-holding by the installer but I'm not sure. What I know is some of my machines boot to UEFI and some don't, and again, I'd like to make sure to select UEFI if possible this time.

I've checked https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/uefi/ and the manual but still not fully sure...

Now, some of the machines don't have separate /home partition: Will the "Preserve /home" option work in that case? If not, what would you recommend doing?

And just to be sure, is it expected that most stuff works after a fresh install preserving /home or problems are frequent? Which are the most frequent?

Thanks for the great work, awesome distro!

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 2:04 pm**

bradhamilton wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:53 pm
I've decided to bite the bullet, and boot KDE MX23 with systemD, as an experiment - unless something(s) go terribly awry, I'll stick with it until the first point release of MX25.

I commented (page 15 post #147) that I've been booting systemd with no issues. My media server requires systemd.

All the desktop ISO's (MX-19,MX-21,MX-23) I install (XFCE, KDE and fluxbox) are booted to systemd and I've never run into an issue with the preinstalled software.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 2:55 pm**

siamhie wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 2:04 pm
bradhamilton wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:53 pm
I've decided to bite the bullet, and boot KDE MX23 with systemD, as an experiment - unless something(s) go terribly awry, I'll stick with it until the first point release of MX25.

I commented (page 15 post #147) that I've been booting systemd with no issues. My media server requires systemd.
All the desktop ISO's (MX-19,MX-21,MX-23) I install (XFCE, KDE and fluxbox) are booted to systemd and I've never run into an issue with the preinstalled software.

Great! Your previous post(s) as well as @AK-47's, have prompted me to take the plunge. My experiment will probably last for a few months (waiting for the first MX25 point release), or "deal-breakers", whichever comes first; but I wonder if the "shim" is currently "protecting" me from issues.

I don't do anything really fancy, so I don't expect issues - wait and see...

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:35 pm**

siamhie wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:35 pm
SNIP

Code: Select all

tools:apt,apt-get,synaptic

drifting off topic ...I know but I am surprised you do not like nala as the faster package tool?

Code: Select all

inxi -SIa
System:
  Host: box Kernel: 6.14.10-2-liquorix-amd64 arch: x86_64 bits: 64
    compiler: gcc v: 12.2.0 parameters: audit=0 intel_pstate=disable
    amd_pstate=disable BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-6.14.10-2-liquorix-amd64
    root=/dev/sda1 ro quiet
  Desktop: IceWM v: 3.3.1 vt: 7 dm: LightDM v: 1.32.0
    Distro: MX-23.6_fluxbox_x64 Libretto October 15 2023 base: Debian GNU/Linux
    12 (bookworm)
Info:
  Processes: 302 Uptime: 17m wakeups: 1 Memory: 61.71 GiB
  used: 1.52 GiB (2.5%) Init: SysVinit v: 3.06 runlevel: 5 default: graphical
  tool: systemctl Compilers: gcc: 12.2.0 alt: 12 Packages: pm: dpkg pkgs: 1668
  libs: 898 tools: apt,apt-get,nala pm: rpm pkgs: 0 Shell: Bash v: 5.2.15
  running-in: lxterminal inxi: 3.3.26

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 7:04 pm**

ghunter wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 6:35 pm
siamhie wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:35 pm
SNIP
Code: Select all
tools:apt,apt-get,synaptic
drifting off topic ...I know but I am surprised you do not like nala as the faster package tool?

I had literally installed it 5 minutes before the screenshot and wanted to show the init section. I hadn't gotten around to setting it up.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 8:05 pm**

Is the way systemd-shim worked literally impossible to get working with cgroups v2 or would it require more effort than the maintainer was willing to put in? I'm guessing the former but I just want to know for sure.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2025 11:55 pm**

alcornoqui wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 1:57 pm Congrats to the team and community!

After reading the thread I have a few questions on upgrading. First, my recollection, mostly from asqwerth:
.....
And my questions:
....
Now, some of the machines don't have separate /home partition: Will the "Preserve /home" option work in that case? If not, what would you recommend doing?

And just to be sure, is it expected that most stuff works after a fresh install preserving /home or problems are frequent? Which are the most frequent?

Thanks for the great work, awesome distro!

Only answering these parts.

The last time I preserved /home that was in the root partition was an install of MX18 or 19. It worked fine.

I believe that if you choose this option, the installer will go through the process of manually deleting the contents of the whole partition except whatever is in /home, before writing (ie installing) MX25 contents into the said partition.

***I haven't done it since because I decided I had tons of disk space so could just create a new partition for the new MX install, then selectively copy over which ever parts of the old install's /home into the new install's /home. I understand @Stevo uses the "preserve home" method still. Perhaps he can confirm it still works fine.

Just beware that I have also seen mentions in this forum that if your /home was encrypted, it might not be so easy to preserve home during the install, though I don't really know if this is true or not.

As for whether stuff works after a fresh install preserving home, I think the main thing to consider would be whether there been a drastic change in Desktop environment version between old and new MX install? If so, the config files and settings may be very different so preserving them may lead to the new DE version in the new install not being set up properly.

Thus, since XFCE in MX23 is ver 4.20 while the latest XFCE is still merely a point release of 4.20, it should be ok to preserve home for MX XFCE.

However, since Plasma in MX23 is 5.++++ while MX25 will have Plasma 6, preserving home for MX KDE with PLasma 5 configs, may lead to some wonkiness in PLasma 6. But if you set your customisation in the Plasma 5 install back to as default as you can (themes, icons, plasma desktop theme, sddm theme, remove third party widgets/plasmoids) before you do an install which preserves /home, it should go much better.

Certainly, if you are running the Event Calendar plasmoid or Latte Dock in Plasma 5, remove/uninstall them first before the install that preserves home. These 2 do not work in Plasma 6, so having a config that tries to start these 2 things will likely crash your desktop when you log into your new install for the first time.

Similar issues will affect the usual user applications you use. But they mostly should work. And if they don't, it's pretty easy to reset the configs. Just close the app that's wonky, move the config files/folders to Trash (or rename them something else), then open your app. It should now be reset to default, and a clean new config file/folder created in your $HOME.

It tends to be harder to remove configs for the DE using graphical tools, because you are in the midst of its graphical environment while trying to delete parts of its configs. You would probably need to do it in terminal to be safe. Also, the DE config files are all over the place in $HOME, so it would be best to ask for forum help if you ever think this is something you need to do.

***NOTE: That's the reason I mainly copy over data/media from HOME, and do selective copying over of only SOME config files now. Less potential issues. I copy the $HOME/.mozilla folder for my Firefox, configs for geany, strawberry and qmplay2 (my media players) and some other apps. I tend not to copy over DE config files, and do the customisation of the new DE from scratch in the new install.

Posted: **Mon Aug 11, 2025 1:48 am**

alcornoqui wrote: Sun Aug 10, 2025 1:57 pm
Regarding UEFI vs BIOS, does the installer offer a choice or do we have to do some previous partitioning in a machine that is UEFI capable but is currently partitioned/formatted for BIOS? I seem to remember some hand-holding by the installer but I'm not sure. What I know is some of my machines boot to UEFI and some don't, and again, I'd like to make sure to select UEFI if possible this time.

I've checked https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/uefi/ and the manual but still not fully sure...

A lot of how the installation flows (BIOS vs UEFI) depends on how the PC firmware is set up. A UEFI installation will boot in UEFI *mode* until something goes wrong. Now *if* the PC has CSM aka Legacy/UEFI enabled a partially broken UEFI installation will boot in MBR/BIOS mode.

If the PC was set up with MX Linux in UEFI Mode, there will be an EFI/ESP partition in addition to the Root / partition. Boot the PC with an MX Linux USB. At the blue boot screen in the lower left will show *UEFI* if that is the boot mode. See Below.

The very last line in Quick System Info is 'Boot Mode: UEFI'. If the PCs hard drive is NOT booting in CSM Mode, these two should be the same.

The installer tries to detect the Boot Mode and picks a Grub installation mode based on what it detects. Most times it gets it right. There are Grub choices offered (see below) during installation: MBR, PBR and ESP. The ESP choice would be for the UEFI installation mode. Likewise, the MBR is for the BIOS, aka Legacy.

If the PC has multiple disks, there is a [small] potential (if an old PCs disk has been added to a new PC) for the installer to get BOTH the Boot Mode and the correct ESP/EFI partition wrong. Think of the old disk (Windows7/Vista) as having user data in addition to the MX Linux disk Home folder.

Boot with an MX Linux USB, run GParted and TAKE GOOD NOTES. Change the Disk Partition Labels for clarity. Ex: change 'ESP' to 'ESP-oldDisk'. Also In GParted go into the View menu and check Device Information. Then flip thru the disks in the pulldown on the upper right to get the Device Information info (even select & copy) text.

Below you can see where I made changes to the default root partition labels; usually 'root MX23'.

One caution - if Dual Booting with Windows, do NOT mix BIOS and UEFI booting. Supporting it is a VERY difficult matter. [1]

1) In the Windows search bar type msinfo32. Scroll to Boot Mode. If it says Legacy, it is in BIOS aka MBR mode.

Posted: **Mon Aug 11, 2025 3:14 am**

When it comes to UEFI.... just say nay.

But being serious if you boot UEFI... my impression is the kernel being signed only matters if you enable secure boot so you can boot with any kernel if you just don't enable it?

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