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Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:23 pm
by GuiGuy
How would MX users rank them in order of evilness?
My own opinion is that Google takes the top position; followed by Apple, then Microsoft in bottom place.
In spite of that I use Google search and Android phones every day
.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:27 pm
by Sparky
For me Google takes the top position, MS 2nd, and Apple 3rd.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:40 pm
by Head_on_a_Stick
Both Google and Microsoft are Platinum members of the Linux Foundation
[1] and therefore qualify as good.
Apple are the scum of the Earth, anybody who buys their products is a [expletive deleted].
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:39 pm
by xali
hard to say which one is the most evil. But i think google is...
@ Head on a stick or whoever wants to answer, ok the platinum members help with their money to improve the code, but if the code is improved to be more suitable for commercial use, why is that to the benefit of the community? The community is the important thing, not the code, as i see it. Is it not?
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:46 pm
by GuiGuy
Yes, Google contributes to Linux and makes extensive use of it. But that use includes the Android system which is abominably tied down: MSwindows machines can accept other operating systems whereas Android ones do not even allow you to remove their nasty in-house applications.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:03 pm
by dreamer
It's an "evil" world and those corporations are part of it just like Red Hat and Canonical. They do some good, some bad. Money talks is an accurate expression and when you reach a certain level you either accept the rules or step down. Many well-meaning individuals working for these companies, though.
One of the reasons I'm a little disillusioned is that I think the world of tech is a lot darker today than 10 years ago. The number of data points collected in Windows 2009 is probably just 1 % compared to Windows 2019. So I would say Microsoft is the company that treats its customers the worst: telemetry, forced updates/upgrades, crazy release model etc.
Microsoft basically has a monopoly because Apple doesn't want to compete. Inferior hardware (thermal design, keyboard, T2 "security chip" lock-down) and higher Apple tax than ever. Apple seems to only keep Mac around for iOS development. If you live outside US a Mac is twice the price of a comparable Windows machine.
So pretty sad state overall.
It's discouraging, because it's like I have seen it all before and 10 years ago I thought that tech would evolve in a more democratic way. UEFI, soldered RAM and SSDs and non-replaceable batteries. Lots of craziness today.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:44 pm
by rootetsy
This is a fun topic!
My list would go like this: Google, Microsoft, Apple
Google is definitely the most "evil" in my eyes simply because of the vast amount of things they track. Since GA is on almost every single site on the net, they basically get to track everything that everyone does on the net whether they have a Google account or own a Google device or not. Doesn't matter because you're still getting tracked. Unless you use a good tracker blocker which even then may still not be enough depending on certain things. Like if the site uses Recaptcha and it happens to load on all pages of their site which I have seen before, LOL.
Oh and if you use Google Chrome it probably doesn't matter whether you're using a privacy plugin, they are still tracking things I bet.
Now that I think about it, maybe Facebook should be in this list somewhere.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:46 pm
by Sparky
rootetsy wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 6:44 pm
This is a fun topic!
My list would go like this: Google, Microsoft, Apple
Now that I think about it, maybe Facebook should be in this list somewhere.
FB should be there, and in my list would come in second to Google.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:49 pm
by KBD
If you are asking: Which one can I trust? The answer is: None of the above.
Putting everything else aside, I don't like Apple because it's such a closed system, and I don't use any Apple products as they always seemed over-priced for their hardware and software.
Google used to be golden, but then it seemed they became obsessed with swallowing every bit of info on every human being possible. I say truthfully, "only God knows more about me than Google".
Microsoft to me is the least threatening, surprisingly. I first of all think that like many things at Microsoft, they are so bad at spying it probably doesn't amount to much. Indeed, awhile back I went to see what they had collected about me and I kind of felt sorry for them compared to what Google had collected.
If Microsoft hadn't been an ass about Linux for so long I'd probably feel a lot better about them. But we know what they want, money for MS Office, and to leverage Windows into driving a variety of customers to their services. I'd have to say Microsoft is least bad of the three.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:07 pm
by Artim
Facebook would be Number Two on my list behind Google, then Microsoft, then Apple. I dumped Farcebook two years ago and use Diaspora (macroblogging, kinda like Farcebook) and Mastodon (Microblogging, kinda like Twitter) instead.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:37 am
by GuiGuy
Facebook, Twitter etc. should not be included in the list because you do not have to use them (I never have and never will).
The listed three are hard to avoid if you need a computer or smartphone.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:46 am
by mxer
If you use the internet, you are going to be able to be tracked, end of!
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:47 am
by JayM
GuiGuy wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:46 pm
Android ones do not even allow you to remove their nasty in-house applications.
Sure they do. Just install a
custom ROM. There are
many to choose from.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:49 pm
by j2mcgreg
I think that Microsoft and Apple were evil initiates for creating and pushing the concept that end users are licensees and not true owners of hardware and software. Google rapidly became evil by embracing and extending the notion that users' data is their data. I see Microsoft and Google as equal ongoing threats whereas Apple, due to their failure to meet sales expectations in the last few quarters, may be seen as a receding threat. Indeed, it may be that Apple has reached the market saturation point with its current market lines.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:05 pm
by Head_on_a_Stick
xali wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 5:39 pm
ok the platinum members help with their money to improve the code, but if the code is improved to be more suitable for commercial use, why is that to the benefit of the community? The community is the important thing, not the code, as i see it. Is it not?
I'm not sure what you mean by "more suitable for commercial use" but the community benefits from an operating system that has professional programmers working on it.
And anyway my post was satirical in nature — Linux was pwned by corporate interests quite a while ago.
Intel is also a Platinum member of the Linux Foundation and this is why Linux doesn't disable SMT by default but OpenBSD does, the kernel developers are happy to ignore the risks to keep the sponsors happy.
The folks who complain about systemd being a Red Hat ploy to "control" Linux are looking in the wrong place...
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:45 pm
by GuiGuy
Head_on_a_Stick wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 1:05 pm.........
...... Linux doesn't disable SMT by default but OpenBSD does, the kernel developers are happy to ignore the risks to keep the sponsors happy.
.......
Sorry to display my ignorance: what is SMT?
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:52 pm
by Head_on_a_Stick
GuiGuy wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 1:45 pm
what is SMT?
Simultaneous Multi-Threading, also known as "hyperthreading".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simultane ... ithreading
Linux now offers a
nosmt kernel parameter to disable it but OpenBSD has a sysctl knob to
enable it, such is the perceived risk.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:57 pm
by GuiGuy
Thanks HoaS.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:36 pm
by KBD
Google just disabled hyperthreading in its ChromeOS 74 Chromebook update:
https://www.aboutchromebooks.com/news/c ... -security/
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:33 am
by AK-47
As much as I admired OpenBSD's decision when they decided to implement it, all of the desktops I've seen (apart from those with a rubbish HP BIOS) have a setting to disable Hyper-Threading anyway. Isn't that setting enough?
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:22 am
by rs55
The way I see it is ; If you use the internet and want to use all the incredibly useful features ( like Maps , youtube etc) - you will be tracked. So, your browsing habits and your contacts and email are all fair game. So - the solution is to keep all important info in separate encrypted databases on your own machine ( not the cloud).
So - Google provides incredible value in exchange for whatever data collection they do. Chrome, gmail, Maps, Keep etc etc. Everything works , is slick and a pleasure to use. They also provide incredible machine learning software like tensorflow.
Microsoft on the other hand provides nothing of value - and provides a really really crappy experience in return. I really dont know why anyone puts up with the windows nonsense - random updates/shutdowns/failed updates - viruses galore. Why? Their software-as-service model requires them to have large open backdoors to your machine. You dont even own the software - you rent it. Just awful.
Apple - I dont know - never owned any of their products. Not a fan of their hardware design - all encased plastic - in that toilet bowl white. No proper thermal venting etc. And expensive .
As for the social media stuff - dont use them. Dont know why anyone would. never had a facebook acct.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:27 am
by rs55
rs55 wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 7:22 am
The way I see it is ; If you use the internet and want to use all the incredibly useful features ( like Maps , youtube etc) - you will be tracked. So, your browsing habits and your contacts and email are all fair game. So - the solution is to keep all important info in separate encrypted databases on your own machine ( not the cloud).
So - Google provides incredible value in exchange for whatever data collection they do. Chrome, gmail, Maps, Keep etc etc. Everything works , is slick and a pleasure to use. They also provide incredible machine learning software like tensorflow.
Microsoft on the other hand provides nothing of value - and provides a really really crappy experience in return. I really dont know why anyone puts up with the windows nonsense - random updates/shutdowns/failed updates - viruses galore. Why? Their software-as-service model requires them to have large open backdoors to your machine. You dont even own the software - you rent it. Just awful.
Apple - I dont know - never owned any of their products. Not a fan of their hardware design - all encased plastic - in that toilet bowl white. No proper thermal venting etc. And expensive .
As for the social media stuff - dont use them. Dont know why anyone would. never had a facebook acct.
Current strategy: Have a collection of of the good thinkpads from 2010-2011 ( W520, X220, x230 ). Have MX Linux on them. Expose myself to Google - because I feel I get enormous value in return. Dont have anything of great value in emails, contacts etc. And dont particularly care if my browsing habits are tracked. Have separate encrypted databases for all information of any value.
Have considered divorcing Google - but have not found a really satisfactory alternative.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:52 am
by Head_on_a_Stick
AK-47 wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 5:33 am
all of the desktops I've seen (apart from those with a rubbish HP BIOS) have a setting to disable Hyper-Threading anyway. Isn't that setting enough?
My point was that Linux do not disable SMT by default because the kernel developers couldn't give a crap about the security risks.
Does the latest kernel version disable SMT for Intel processors? My buster system is still vulnerable.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 4:41 pm
by mx-2018
My wounds from the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy of MS are still fresh. So I put them at the top of the Evil list. Then followed by Big G (who stole my idea and destroyed the only existing proof it was my idea). Apple has not done anything bad to me (except made it hard to transfer files between my devices), so I put them behind Samsung (not in the list) who wanted to charge me $100+ to fix a $50 bluray player which stopped playing bluray discs after their mandatory firmware update.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:59 pm
by Sparky
mx-2018 wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 4:41 pm
My wounds from the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy of MS are still fresh. So I put them at the top of the Evil list. Then followed by Big G (who stole my idea and destroyed the only existing proof it was my idea). Apple has not done anything bad to me (except made it hard to transfer files between my devices), so I put them behind Samsung (not in the list) who wanted to charge me $100+ to fix a $50 bluray player which stopped playing bluray discs after their mandatory firmware update.
Least you get it my friend., the Chiken).
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:04 pm
by GuiGuy
Gmail from computer mail app stopped working today, although it still works via Android phone and webmail.
WTHIH?
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:33 pm
by GuiGuy
Somebody at Google got their finger out: it's working again now
.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:45 am
by Grey_2NE1
GuiGuy wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 4:37 am
Facebook, Twitter etc. should not be included in the list because you do not have to use them (I never have and never will).
The listed three are hard to avoid if you need a computer or smartphone.
something like 98% of net users do NOT block scripts from web-pages.
If you do not block FB scripts, you are using them... or at least feeding them your info.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:13 am
by LU344928
GuiGuy wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 4:23 pm
How would MX users rank them in order of evilness?
Google is the worst, the worst violator of your privacy and the worst in nearly all other respects, followed closely by M$ then Apple.
“We know where you are. We know where you’ve been. We can more or less know what you’re thinking about.”
~ Eric Schmidt, CEO of Google, 2010
Google = surveillance capitalism
Interesting that Google's motto used to be 'Don’t be evil' yet that's exactly what this company has become, in so many ways. When Eric Schmidt, now Executive Chairman of Google's parent company Alphabet, visited Burma some years ago, he called for free and open internet use there. This is the height of hypocrisy when taken in light of Google's current censorship of anti-war and left-wing websites. This is is political blacklisting and is a gross abuse of power and an attack on freedom of speech.
My own opinion is that Google takes the top position; followed by Apple, then Microsoft in bottom place.
In spite of that I use Google search and Android phones every day
Heard of
Start Page? An EU based search engine which acts as a proxy yet delivers search results the same as Google. That way Google doesn't know what you've searched for and you can reclaim some of your privacy.
Duckduckgo is another privacy focused search engine.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:45 am
by alexjack
j2mcgreg wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 12:49 pm
I think that Microsoft and Apple were evil initiates for creating and pushing the concept that end users are licensees and not true owners of hardware and software. Google rapidly became evil by embracing and extending the notion that users' data is their data. I see Microsoft and Google as equal ongoing threats whereas Apple, due to their failure to meet sales expectations in the last few quarters, may be seen as a receding threat. Indeed, it may be that Apple has reached the market saturation point with its current market lines.
Since iPhone sales topped out at the 7, it will be interesting to see whether Apple seek to change their model and monetize in other areas in a more 'Google' way. I think that with Apple, although not great is a lot of areas, the deal you make with them is more up front along the lines of, "if you buy our very expensive pretty hardware every three years, we'll keep providing services and will keep your data reasonably secure / private."
With Google, you make a different deal where there is no cash up front, but you pay a lot more in other ways. It's not particularly clear what this deal is, and they can change how much they take.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:51 am
by alexjack
Google are #1. I think that Youtube is trying to steer me to be politically extreme so it will have more control over my attention. It's really very dark. I won't use Facebook because it's disgusting. It should come with a health warning.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:04 am
by jj1j1
I jumped on the anti-google bandwagon a while back, but my anti google sentiments feel sort of hollow considering I use an andriod phone for everything. I used all the Windows from Windows 95 to Windows 10. They were a thing, but now they aren't, and I've never used, or owned an apple device. I'm happy with my phone, and I learned about computers while using Windows, so I can't say I really dislike any of the companies. Windows, and Google has increased my quality of life if anything.
Re: Google, Apple and Microsoft.
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:35 am
by slayerrr
Soo true