MX Linux Forum

Not a Rant
Geez Folks ... just wasted a bunch of time replying to "Re: Testing Apps/Packages.Pay attention before publish to Test Repos" only to find that a mod got ticked and locked the thread. I'll post here anyway ... sorry to see that ... some really good lessons there ...

Thought to chime-in on this issue:
(1) No one has blamed ANYONE in this thred ... penguin has simply suggested that TEST not be so readily available to an inexperienced user ... I agree and I AM an experienced user! I have posted regarding Test Repos in the past and have borked my stable system once this past year on MX17 after installing Audacity from TEST. Lesson learned!
(2) Contrary to what was said about "warnings" ... NOWHERE in the manual is it EXPLICITLY stated to use TEST without backing up your system first! The only warnings have been posted by admins and devs in this thread and sprinkled in other parts of this forum ... not every end-user joins forums!
(3) This discussion has resulted in some very very valuable info regarding system backups and the many options available ... kudos for that!

Bottom line? The MX manual needs a small revision with respect to using TEST.

To all listening:
(1) If you wish to become a tester, make sure you have a backup system in place or use a designated partition or spare machine as a sandbox.
(2) If you install MX for others, strongly advise them NOT to go any further than STABLE! I have 100+ client installations presently as well as a few local stores with MX pre-installed on some machines. The first thing I do is advise them as to the use of the package manager (briefly explaining why ... they always then ask me how come the options are there?) ... then to make a donation towards further MX development.
(3) Personally, I dislike the fact that TEST and Flatpaks are part of the package manager. Flatpaks don't always work, are a pain to uninstall completely ... TEST shouldn't even be in the package manager, because as penguin said, MX is NOT a rolling release and some users could get fooled ... the next MX version will ALREADY contain the necessary libs from the new Debian Stable to make it easy for MX18 to provide end-users with the convenient assortment of xtra apps folks would like to have post-installation ... not many testers out there anyway willing to bork their production machines ...
(4) MX is a really solid distro and simple to use for the general public with some really sweet in-house tools to make the Linux experience a joy ... keep it simple please!

Cheers

Aren't regular backups recommended for all users, whether or not they test packages or not? Do we really have to repeat that advice?

We also found that having the test repo option in the MXPI is preferable to what we had before, where many users would just add the test repo in Synaptic and upgrade everything in one fell swoop.

I hope you aren't also mistaking our test repo for the Debian testing repository--they are completely different in concept. Ours contains backports, built against Debian Stable libraries as far as possible. Maybe we can make our warning stronger about what our "test" really means.

Paragraph 4.8.1 of the User Manual states the need for backups. Surely that is sufficient.

Paragraph 5.2.2 Community repos could be more explicit for disclaimer/advice for those who wish to dabble in testing something along the lines I proposed above: "If you wish to become a tester, make sure you have backed up your system or use a designated OS partition/spare machine as a sandbox ...". The disclaimer reads nicely here: https://mxlinux.org/community-repo bottom of page ... should be repeated in the advice regarding MX Test in the Manual. MXPI interface could also include "For advanced users" as part of the text header when people see the MXTesting option ...

There are 87 pages in this forum with the key words "test repos" that I browsed through today and quite a few folks had problems of one sort or another ... I always back up any system I use ... the only time I didn't, I regretted it! Half the tech-time I spend is retrieving personal data from folks who DON'T back-up and need to reinstall their OS ... the vast majority by the way ...

Inquiries could easily be answered by pointing these things out in the manual and the interface ... problem solved ... as long as people read ...

Cheers

Stevo wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:48 pmI hope you aren't also mistaking our test repo for the Debian testing repository--they are completely different in concept. Ours contains backports, built against Debian Stable libraries as far as possible. Maybe we can make our warning stronger about what our "test" really means.

MX Test repo is more like Debian experimental. A stronger warning in MXPI that things may break sounds like a good idea.

Is it assumed that installing from the test repo is to test the package so the devs can decide to move it to stable?

Stevo wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:48 pm Maybe we can make our warning stronger about what our "test" really means.

As a suggestion, the popular applications tab on MXPI has "Manage popular packages" in big letters at the top. Why not put something like "These packages are for testing and may have issues" at the top of the MX test repo tab?

The "Test" in MX Test Repo should give a hint on that everything in it is being tested and may or may not work. Do we need big bright flashing lights with a warning sound like this? https://www.soundboard.com/sb/sound/355544

Yes, we have some people that have reported problems with packages in the test repo---that's why they are being tested. In the vast majority of those cases, we've been able to fix those issues as a result of people testing those applications, often just having them pull in some missing dependency.

How would you suggest we get have a fair number of people testing those new packages if we make them even harder to install and scare them all off with warnings of dire consequences?

Penguin, you aren't one of those guys that keep calling Debian testing "a rolling release" instead of the testbed for the next release, are you?

You know there are simple ways to downgrade back from the test repo versions, right?

MX strives to take end-users by the hand and offer a Linux (Debian) system that's easy and simple to use. One must ALWAYS take into account the need of the end-user and their abilities. Many of them come from other platforms and are using Linux for the very first time and need assurances that they won't end up doing something silly ... without the flashing lights and sirens of course. Grandma and Grandpa first-timers should have absolutely NO problem fulfilling their computer needs after an MX install ... once beginners are properly advised through the Manual or the MXPI gui that certain aspects are for advanced users, do you think they would muck around? ... I don't think so! Said all I've had to say on this thread ... thanks for the listen everyone.

Cheers

MX strives to take end-users by the hand and offer a Linux (Debian) system that's easy and simple to use. One must ALWAYS take into account the need of the end-user and their abilities. Many of them come from other platforms and are using Linux for the very first time and need assurances that they won't end up doing something silly ... without the flashing lights and sirens of course. Grandma and Grandpa first-timers should have absolutely NO problem fulfilling their computer needs after an MX install

NO. I don't agree with that.
MX Linux is not Windows, Ubuntu, Elementary, SmokieLinux, SmartLinux or whatever.

https://mxlinux.org/ MX Linux is a cooperative venture between the antiX and former MEPIS communities, using the best tools and talents from each distro. It is a midweight OS designed to combine an elegant and efficient desktop with simple configuration, high stability, solid performance and medium-sized footprint. (--> more)

Basic traits
Kernels (secured against known vulnerabilities)
32bit: Linux kernel 4.15.0-1 PAE (non-PAE kernel: antiX). Very stable kernel for many machines.
64bit: linux-image-4.15.0-1-amd64. Recent stable kernel for newer machines.
Easy kernel upgrade or downgrade with MX Package Installer
Foundation
Debian Stable 9.4 (Stretch), augmented by ongoing backports and additions
Xfce 4.12.3
core antiX systems
Automatic enabling of most Broadcom drivers
UEFI installer (64bit)

https://mxlinux.org/current-release-features Thanks to its high stability, easy learning curve and good looks, MX Linux makes a great no-fuss system for all types of users and applications.

MX Linux is designed for people who are literate, can read simple warnings and heed them.
It is derived from Debian Stable. Their motto is still "If you break Debian, you get to keep both pieces."

Nowhere do I see that you can add, delete repos, install weird stuff and it is MX fault & responsibility to clean up your mess!

PS: I probably should just delete this, but I'll leave that task to our moderators.

thanks, MisterZ, for this followup "user advocacy" food-for-thought topic.

It seems to me we are plowing the same ground over and over. I am sure the devs have monitored this thread and will take all suggestions under advisement. Cane we move on?

Yes, thanks.

@Richard
"Nowhere do I see that you can add, delete repos, install weird stuff and it is MX fault & responsibility to clean up your mess!"
First of all, I've never made a mess I coouldn't fix myself or through this forum, Secondly, if you have ever gone through my posts, you'll find that I.ve never faulted MX for anything ... in fact have helped users and even provided the odd tutorial. Yes, you should have deleted your obnoxious post and gone to bed, Due to your disrespectful mouth, I.ve come to MY limit ... Please remove my posts and my login credentials from this snobbish hell-hole. Good-bye and good luck to all the civil folks, devs, and mods who do a great job ... except for loud-mouth!

MisterZ wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:35 pm @Richard
"Nowhere do I see that you can add, delete repos, install weird stuff and it is MX fault & responsibility to clean up your mess!"
First of all, I've never made a mess I coouldn't fix myself or through this forum, Secondly, if you have ever gone through my posts, you'll find that I.ve never faulted MX for anything ... in fact have helped users and even provided the odd tutorial. Yes, you should have deleted your obnoxious post and gone to bed, Due to your disrespectful mouth, I.ve come to MY limit ... Please remove my posts and my login credentials from this snobbish hell-hole. Good-bye and good luck to all the civil folks, devs, and mods who do a great job ... except for loud-mouth!

I think because Richard was talking to you in that post, you thought he was talking about you. Simple mistake. Shake it off and come back.-)

OK, I requested we move on and it is obvious we cannot. Since this thread has served its purpose and now has become personal I am locking it.