AV Linux... continue with Openbox, or not?

[pianokeyjoe]

Hi guys! As I said before and @AVLinux mentioned, keeping it simple on the DE front is best. While E and OB are great in their own right, XFCE is again, tightly integrated into MX LINUX and thus the best choice is to have the one DE/wm that is default. Now, about ram usage. Most of my systems are 3GB or 4GB ram and work fine as LIVE READ ONLY systems for media work and playback. BUT, I have also removed alot of packages I did not need for my specific devices and uses. What I found out, is XFCE has alot of modules like Enlightenment. I reduced the DE ram usage by removing the themes and modules I do not need for music production. Again, Simple. At least to start. I know we love to add things and pretty things up. I have done it and will continue to do so. But The issue of too much ram usage is solved by removing the modules the load with XFCE by default. that are not needed for the setup at hand. The themes and icon sets, the same. Removing the extra themes and icons that are not critical to overall system use and stability should be removed. Keep only the bare minimum themes and icon to keep the system stable, then add your custom AVL-MXE theme and icon set and wallpaper set. Things we need on the Music production DE to start up at minimum are: Audio controls, Time and Date, Shutdown menu, apps menu and config menu. Everything that is needed can be in menus except the Time and Date, and even that can be in one of the menus, so the module only loads and pops up when you open that menu that the time and date module needs to run. XFCE has a very basic time and date app of its own and does not need Orage which is a separate app. Just some ideas and observations to keep things light and efficient for AV production DE still using XFCE. Ultimately, it is true, AVLinux, your time is valuable and what you feel is best is what you go with. These are just suggestions. I would NOT, repeat, NOT change over to E as the default. IO Linux did it and their development has stalled for years. Elive does it with BOTH versions of E(modern and classic E16) and they do not have the MX magic to boast about so things break alot in that distro and E crashes alot too. That wonky module that crashes E needs to be gone or replaced but procstat seems like part of the meters and top which make E perty perty with all those live process meter modules going. Ultimately it is up to you my good sir, but yes, lightness and stability and user friendliness can all be accomplished with a little...er..time :-)

[alextone]

When I turned off the procstats module here, way back in the early development days of MXDE-EFL, E started performing properly, and has done since. Score one for E's modular design, where the user can disable a wonky module immediately, and without any need for rocket science, or relentless late night pizza and beer consumption to solve problems.

Alex.

[Edited}

[AVLinux]

@pianokeyjoe

I understand your point and agree with the K.I.S.S. rule in general. I would also agree you can turn certain system services off (ie Bluetooth if your computer has no BT hardware etc..). I'm a bit dubious about how much difference themes or icons make but services can certainly make a difference.

As far as Enlightenment... Did I/O Linux stop because of Enlightenment specifically or because the developer simply didn't or couldn't continue for another reason...? As far as elive I think much of the problem is that he is mixing and matching so many things and seems so stubbornly stuck on E-16. I find it sad that somebody like me can use the MX infrastructure and come up with a pretty darn good E build within a couple of months, I'm very puzzled why (a) Bodhi Linux has not kept pace with Ubuntu Releases and (b) why elive has essentially been locked in the same state with incremental updates literally for years..?

Are these the fault of the Desktop Environment itself, or the fact that two of the largest Distributors seem to be focused on things or having challenges that are not directly problems with E itself.. Is Enlightenment quirky and stubbornly different than the GTK/QT stuff? Well sure, but it's perfectly usable and stable (yes, with some experience and research) and much of the reason I am drawn to doing it is I very strongly feel with the strong foundation and infrastructure MX provides Enlightenment could finally get the recognition and a showing it deserves..

@alextone

Sorry to pick nits but the names are confusing and important... There is no such thing as Enlightenment AVL-MXE, there is only MXDE-EFL... AVL-MXE in the current sense is XFCE4

[pianokeyjoe]

@AVLinux IO Linux stopped due to other things, not E. Just used them as a case in point of E based distros that for the most part are dead or very stagnated. And oh my, I do fully understand your love for E! I more than most actually. I came up with Enlightenment OS concept back in the early days of E15/16 and with the Movie AI and the strange computer tablets used in that movie, that helped fuel my imagination and interest in such a project along with Cuddletech's historic DR17 website and all the pictures and screenshots of an E desktop that never was(cross of E16,GTK2,E17 concept desktop and lots of drop shadows and 3D). To make E and MX and AVL a "thing" now, would be glorious! But I now know at my age that time is precious and if things have stagnated with E and various distros for so long and we are in 2022, I just did not want you to go there only to stagnate too in the end. But a worthy and ambitious project of combining all 3 of those things into a "Enlightenment OS" for real, would be a dream come true yes. I just did not expect some one else to kinda go for it after all these years. Eitherway, AVL-MXE should be a project that is a love for YOU and then for US. SO in the end, go for what you want and see how it fairs. You have done more with E in recent months than most have in years so kudos! Elive? Yeah I love E16 and the old and fancy Entrance login manager that was part of that Cuddletech DR17 preAlpha release of E17 back in 2001-2002. 3D openGL spining icons, and animations in a login screen make me all crazy happy and with modern computers that should be easy to do and have.. so why not? Their fault is the slooooooooooow progress on E and some of their tools which are not as good as MX tools. Sparkylinux is another contender for E with some apps not available even in Elive.. so that all said, my friend, in the end, it is up to you but we love what you are doing and look forward to another work of art that is AVL!

[Aceediq]

@AVLinux, from the looks of it, I think openbox is out of the equation now, and since AVL-MXE was a hybrid of OB & XFCE, I do not think it will take much to make AVL-MXE purely XFCE. Finally, I will be able to change Walls easily...

Then continue with MXDE-EFL and if it can be developed to a stage as stable as AVL-MXE XFCE-based, then you make the choice of which to use as our Official DE...so AVL-MXE XFCE acts as a fallback now, just incase something borks in MXDE-EFL and cannot be fixed or if it will take a while to be fixed, we all can still remain in the AVL sphere albeit XFCE DE.


Personally, I welcome the option of having a stable DE not based on GTK/Qt...

[Steve]

@AVLinux my system Debian 11 with xfce4 runs at 1.1-1.5 gigs with reaper and qpwgraph running.
I would love to see you go back to a “mainstream” DE. That would make it easier to recommend avlinux.
Still do but with a few reservations. Well you know my opinion.
In the end you must do what’s most important to you.
Why doesn’t fxtalk still provide kxstudio de mega package?
Newbies need things all set up, speaking from experience, then you can learn if you wish or not.
Btw ever run both reaper and ardour 7 in jack at the same time, with both getting the same input/output?
No reason to except “its there”
Good luck , a lot of good comments here…more kiss less weld

[AVLinux]

Hi @Steve !

Well, it's pretty much there now, the trouble is when you add and remove such a fundamental element there is an unexpectedly large spinoff into other details and the devil (and a lot of time) is in the details.. Switching the actual Window Manager on an installed system took minutes, no biggie! Then reflecting all of those changes and getting them to accurately work in the build-ISO script complicates it quite a bit, then when several pages of a User Manual refer to things and details that are no longer there it compounds further so I'm going to need another week at least.. What's important to me is people using it and being productive with it... unfortunately the mindset of an artist sometimes gets all tangled up in the creation of tools they have no business in... People want an effective and simple hammer, they don't really care so much if the handle is carved and painted uniquely, it's getting through this thick skull, slowly..

I met falkTX at the Linux Audio Conference in 2014, at that time KXStudio was his main gig and he lived at home, as people do he grew up, got a real job and although he has his pet plugins and projects KXStudio as a meaningful Repository for anything other than his own stuff ceased a few years ago. I manually Package his Distrho-Ports set of Plugins but beyond that I've left the Repo out of AV Linux. It may work for most and it will hugely depend on what people actually install from there how well it works but it's become too niche to risk making part of AVL.

I've now tested PipeWire in a few VM's. TBH the benefits are invisible to me and when I want to get freaky with Audio routing I know JACK will deliver, PW is the reality and the future but I see absolutely no reason to integrate it currently, @dolphin_oracle and his hard work have now made it an option for those who want to try it with MX-21/Bullseye systems and having the choice is what's important, for me seeing that it could work and does work and what needed preparing for was more important than actually switching at this time.. I don't see that anything is 'broken' with JACK/Pulse/pajackconnect and performance will always vary from machine to machine regardless of the Audio server, in your own words..."in the end you must do what's most important to you".. wise words indeed!

[Steve]

@AV_Linux_MX_2022
Pipewire does seem to be a individual experience right now, missing my menu bar in qpwgraph myself. But it has lowered the cpu usage and x runs, even on loading do not cause a x run.
So that’s good for me.
Anyway glad to hear you are going less weld more lol

[pffftdwarf]

From my view as a plain User: I just want a System that enables me to record my Audio. If it is pure XFCE or a mixture: I am fine with either.
I use AV-Linux purely for recording, so I did not change many things, maybe some eyecandy and added some packages I needed. Rest is pure AV-Linux.
You are doing an excellent Job with AV Linux!!

[bjoseph]

Well, complete newbie here.... and after beating my head against the wall for 7 straight days, apart from having issues with pulseaudio and jack, I just trashed my system attempting to remove Openbox and reinstall XFCE. I tried nearly every imaginable method of reinstalling the XFCE window manager, and I end up with an absolute mess, unable to close windows, window menu bar in Firefox missing.... I hate Openbox. WHY? Because every single tutorial I find on the Web for MXLinux NEVER uses Openbox. It took me hours to figure out why MXLinux settings manager was missing the "windows manager". Duh.

Has anyone actually successfully replaced Openbox and reverted back to standard XFCE window manager without any glitches or issues? If so, how did you do it? I tried using both MX Package Manager and Synaptic Package Manager... I also tried using the Terminal.... no luck.... every tutorial I see online has the Whisper icon in the top left of the screen yet this installation puts the panel on the bottom. Moving the panel makes no difference.... that illusive little whisper icon drives me nuts as I can't find it.

any help greatly appreciated.