MX Linux Forum

Hello. I didn't know where to post this message. Most internet forums - especially Finnish ones - are full of snobs and cyberbullies that make it impossible to have a civilized discussion about this matter. I noticed that MX Linux still plans to support 32-bit targets into the future so I thought that this forum might be a good place.

To the subject at hand. I have noticed that most computer programs gain a significant increase in binary size when they are compiled to a 64-bit target, compared to what the size is in 32-bit target. Since the default operand size in x86 is 32 bits in both 32- and 64-bit mode, this size difference has to come entirely from the pointer size. Usually 64-bit programs seem to be about 15 % larger than 32-bit programs. The exact difference depends on how much pointers are used.

The data also needs more memory in 64-bit mode, if there are pointers. In certain use cases, where the dynamic data is mostly just pointer tables (spreadsheets probably being a good example) the program can require twice as much memory in 64-bit mode than it needs in 32-bit mode.

Today I browsed online computer shops and noticed that most new laptops still have only 4 GB of RAM. Desktop computers usually have 8 GB. (I also find it weird to use the word "only" when speaking about a memory amount of more than four billion octets.) That means that they don't benefit much, if at all, from 64-bit code. Sure, some arithmetic calculations are faster in 64-bit CPU mode - but the cost is just too much, if the system is already low in memory. If 64-bit programs are on average 15 % larger than 32-bit programs, then "downgrading" to 32-bit Linux distribution in a computer with 8 GB of memory can easily free an entire gigabyte of memory.

It should also be noted that before Windows 11 was essential, most entry-level PCs didn't necessarily even have that 4 GB of memory.

And those are _new_ computers - old ones have even less memory and many don't even support 64-bit code at all. Those are the computers that people usually use to try Linux for the first time. Also, new computers tend to be more and more often boot-locked into their factory installed operating system. UEFI makes it harder or sometimes even impossible to boot any other programs than the bootloader of Windows.

Now many Linux popular Linux distributions have completely dropped the support for 32-bit targets. Even Debian drops support for 32-bit x86 targets, and the list of its supported computing platform is again one entry shorter. Ubuntu even dropped support for older 64-bit x86 CPUs. Considering that Ubuntu has achieved the status of the most well-known beginner-friendly Linux distribution, this means that less people are going to use Linux - instead they just throw their old computer to trash and buy a new one with Windows 11.

There is also many problems with programs that are at least partially written in rust. The official rust compiler has a bug that it always adds SSE2 instructions to i686 code. Pentium Pro does not have SSE2. Anything older than Pentium 4 doesn't. The maintainers of the rust compiler aren't going to fix that bug.

Thanks to rust and all compile-time safety checks that its compiler makes, compiling Firefox or SeaMonkey's experimental version now requires 32 gigabytes of memory. That kind of ruins the whole idea of free software, if you technically have the right to modify the program, but building the modified version of the program requires so much more powerful computer that you are stuck with the "official" version of the program binary anyway. It's almost funny how the "rust people" just don't see a problem here. Safety is the number one priority to them, no matter the cost.

Many software developers don't even seem to acknowledge the fact that an average computer that actually exists and is in use is not very powerful. For example, in one IRC channel someone made a claim that already in 1999 almost everyone had 1 GB of memory, which is ridiculous. These snobby software developers, who thrive on destroying old stuff, are creating a corporate-friendly computing monoculture where everyone just has to consume and buy more new stuff.

My opinion is that the developers of free software should target hardware that actually exists out there. That's the only way how free software can actually reach more users. The current direction leads to a situation where free software can only be ran on "specialized" computers that cannot be bought from normie PC stores.

Out of curiosity I scrolled best-selling laptops on Newegg and 16G was the most common, with 32G or higher also popular. There were a few 8G, but nothing 4G.

trawglodyte wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 5:50 pm Out of curiosity I scrolled best-selling laptops on Newegg and 16G was the most common, with 32G or higher also popular. There were a few 8G, but nothing 4G.

Remember kids, DRAM is the only measurement of computing. When choosing a new computer, you only have one question to consider, because you want the one with more Gee Bees.

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 5:32 pm Many software developers don't even seem to acknowledge the fact that an average computer that actually exists and is in use is not very powerful. For example, in one IRC channel someone made a claim that already in 1999 almost everyone had 1 GB of memory, which is ridiculous. These snobby software developers, who thrive on destroying old stuff, are creating a corporate-friendly computing monoculture where everyone just has to consume and buy more new stuff.

My opinion is that the developers of free software should target hardware that actually exists out there.

This rant started out fairly benign, if not reductive, arguing that 64-bit pointers are bigger than 32-bit pointers, but then uses that as a strawman to divert OP's ire at its real target: "snobby software developers" who are guilty of the sin of... supporting new hardware.

Yep. Those evil programmers just keep writing code that runs on the stuff you're most likely to find on Newegg. How fiendish!

While I can appreciate OP's underlying message of anti-consumerism and keeping old hardware around even though it isn't the newest or the fastest model anymore, saying "free software has a problem" purely because of The Innovator's Dilemma makes OP come across as misguided and more than a little unhinged. It's no wonder other forums haven't been receptive to whatever point this argument is trying to make.

If you don't want to upgrade your hardware? Don't. The fact that new software will come along to support new hardware doesn't hurt you too much because, thanks to the fact it's free and open source, the old stuff will keep working on your old machine.

Eventually the browser will break -- incompatible security parameters with modern web servers, eventually security bugs won't get patched, and eventually your machine won't be able to peacefully coexist online anymore. I should know, I recently played around with a Windows XP install that is patently unusable on the modern Internet. I didn't complain about this too much for the same reason I didn't cry when my trusty old graphing calculator died 15 years after I'd bought it.

So OP isn't necessarily wrong, per se, but definitely misguided. Is the argument that we should stop fabricating new chips? Perhaps he's arguing we should refuse to write new software for new processors altogether. If we're going to get stuck in the past, how do we pick which year of the past in which to get stuck? I hope it's either before the Pentium F00F bug, or after that but before the first generation of Centrino processors. Maybe we should just let OP pick which retroarchitecture to make the new, eternal standard for the world, because he clearly knows what's best for society. I can see the headlines now: "COMPUCOMMUNISM SAVES THE WORLD: Standard PC Specs Written In Stone, No New Upgrades, Ever... Or Else!"

P.S. That old Windows XP setup I mentioned? It runs the vintage .EXE I wanted it to run beautifully, and it will continue to do so for quite some time. I've taken to writing more Win32 assembly software for it, too, and that's been a fun endeavor I think more people should try doing. Retrocomputing is a wonderful hobby anyone can enjoy, if they wait long enough. If they don't let the bitterness of time, wear, and obsolescence get the better of them.

DukeComposed wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 6:25 pm Remember kids, DRAM is the only measurement of computing. When choosing a new computer, you only have one question to consider, because you want the one with more Gee Bees.

The OP claimed that "most" new laptops being sold had 4G of RAM. This was an easy claim to fact-check, which I did and found NONE of the best-selling laptops on Newegg had 4G, in fact MOST had 16G with 32G being the next most common. Nobody claimed this was the only consideration, your snark is unwarranted. My intention was only to fact-check one claim and show just how far from reality it was. I'm under no obligation to respond to every other claim made.

While really think there are some points to running applications on the lean side... there is no question that quite a lot of software needs to grow larger to incorporate more functionality. Like everything - there is a balance.

I have been outfitting computer users with 8gb of ram LONG before people said it was 'required'.. and 16gb of ram has been my 'minimum' build for YEARS! When we talk about windows, the bloat on the OS takes over 4gb just to get legs under it, and HAS taken over 4gb since before win10 was alive ... ancient history on ram I'm afraid ;-/

As for how it all works - I strongly suggest that you have a look at how compilers, libraries and languages work, as all have gotten larger and larger and not needlessly. Users want more, and providing more comes with a price tag. Add in the bloat that many things add to cover multiple platforms, os's, etc etc.. and you start to see why things "get larger".

And... as with most things - cars for example... there are some people very happy to keep running that 1979 datsun or 1989 Dodge Ram pickup... But there are more people that want that newer model and the features that it provides.

We are trashing (*ahem* "recycling") 64-bit capable machines like 15 years ago...

We are not going to support 32-bit if Debian is not supporting it and as far as I know they don't even plan to build 32-bit kernels for Trixie and they won't have a 32-bit installer.

Hi,

*Side notes..

*posted at the same time as Adrian

If I'm not mistaken Debian Trixie will not provide installers for 32bit but 32bit packages will still be present in Debian's repo, in the case of MX (and others) with their own installer there is at least the potential to continue with 32bit ISO's. I would also mention that I would guess VERY few developers test their application code on 32bit systems any more so if you have the good fortune that it still compiles it is probably not a guarantee that there aren't other problems to be found in the moldy code.

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 5:32 pm Today I browsed online computer shops and noticed that most new laptops still have only 4 GB of RAM. Desktop computers usually have 8 GB.

Where were you looking? When I go to Amazon's web site, their $500 desktop towers/laptops start with 16GB of RAM. Under $300 will get you at least 8GB of RAM.

trawglodyte wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 5:50 pm Out of curiosity I scrolled best-selling laptops on Newegg and 16G was the most common, with 32G or higher also popular. There were a few 8G, but nothing 4G.

I recommend looking at stores where most people (read: normies) actually would buy a computer.

DukeComposed wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 6:25 pm but then uses that as a strawman to divert OP's ire at its real target: "snobby software developers" who are guilty of the sin of... supporting new hardware.

I think you are the one using a strawman argument here.

DukeComposed wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 6:25 pm While I can appreciate OP's underlying message of anti-consumerism and keeping old hardware around even though it isn't the newest or the fastest model anymore, saying "free software has a problem" purely because of The Innovator's Dilemma makes OP come across as misguided and more than a little unhinged. It's no wonder other forums haven't been receptive to whatever point this argument is trying to make.

This has nothing to do with the innovator's dilemma. Supporting new hardware does not mean breaking compatibility with other types of hardware targets.

DukeComposed wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 6:25 pm If you don't want to upgrade your hardware? Don't. The fact that new software will come along to support new hardware doesn't hurt you too much because, thanks to the fact it's free and open source, the old stuff will keep working on your old machine.

Old machines need security updates too.

DukeComposed wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 6:25 pm Eventually the browser will break -- incompatible security parameters with modern web servers, eventually security bugs won't get patched, and eventually your machine won't be able to peacefully coexist online anymore.

That's exactly what the corporate-friendly monoculture is.

DukeComposed wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 6:25 pm So OP isn't necessarily wrong, per se, but definitely misguided. Is the argument that we should stop fabricating new chips? Perhaps he's arguing we should refuse to write new software for new processors altogether. If we're going to get stuck in the past, how do we pick which year of the past in which to get stuck? I hope it's either before the Pentium F00F bug, or after that but before the first generation of Centrino processors. Maybe we should just let OP pick which retroarchitecture to make the new, eternal standard for the world, because he clearly knows what's best for society. I can see the headlines now: "COMPUCOMMUNISM SAVES THE WORLD: Standard PC Specs Written In Stone, No New Upgrades, Ever... Or Else!"

You just keep coming up with new strawmans.

siamhie wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:08 pm

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 5:32 pm Today I browsed online computer shops and noticed that most new laptops still have only 4 GB of RAM. Desktop computers usually have 8 GB.

Where were you looking? When I go to Amazon's web site, their $500 desktop towers/laptops start with 16GB of RAM. Under $300 will get you at least 8GB of RAM.

I looked at Verkkokauppa.com, a Finnish computer hardware store - which is probably not where normies would buy a computer from. The places, where they more likely buy them, sell computers with even smaller amounts of memory.

trawglodyte wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 6:47 pm The OP claimed that "most" new laptops being sold had 4G of RAM. This was an easy claim to fact-check, which I did and found NONE of the best-selling laptops on Newegg had 4G, in fact MOST had 16G with 32G being the next most common.

OP's unrealistic claims also imply that Finland is somewhere on the tail end of the PC innovation pipeline and that 8 GB machines are somehow rare or unfathomably difficult to obtain.

I'd like to offer the counterpoint that Remedy, the studio behind games like Control and the Max Payne series, is based out of Espoo, outside of Helsinki. They've been in business since the mid-1990s. There are several other Finnish game development studios that could also bear mention who don't seem to have this problem.

New laptops in Finland may only top out at 4GB... at the price OP is willing to pay for them. Overall, OP is trying to paint the picture of Finnish electronics as bleak, outdated, and being left behind by consumption-driven free software projects (Are free software developers known for being notoriously avaricious?) Instead, he simply makes himself sound angry, regressive, and cheap.

I mean even Raspberry Pi has a 8GB non-expensive machine, https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-4-8gb.html Oops that was even the previous generation, this is the current one https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-5-8gb.html

If you buy in this day an age a 4GB machine and you are not dying of hunger, shame on you.

DukeComposed wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:12 pm OP's unrealistic claims also imply that Finland is somewhere on the tail end of the PC innovation pipeline and that 8 GB machines are somehow rare or unfathomably difficult to obtain.
...
Overall, OP is trying to paint the picture of Finnish electronics as bleak, outdated, and being left behind by consumption-driven free software projects (Are free software developers known for being notoriously avaricious?) Instead, he simply makes himself sound angry, regressive, and cheap.

More strawmans. I never wrote anything like that.

But I have actually fixed people's computers and I know that people buy mostly stuff that are below the middle price segment. Also, the computers that people actually use tend to not be the newest models. That probably also applies to other places than Finland.

Adrian wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:23 pm I mean even Raspberry Pi has a 8GB non-expensive machine, https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-4-8gb.html Oops that was even the previous generation, this is the current one https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-5-8gb.html

If you buy in this day an age a 4GB machine and you are not dying of hunger, shame on you.

As I wrote in the first message of this thread:

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 5:32 pm My opinion is that the developers of free software should target hardware that actually exists out there. That's the only way how free software can actually reach more users. The current direction leads to a situation where free software can only be ran on "specialized" computers that cannot be bought from normie PC stores.

And you cannot even build Firefox on that Raspberry thing.

My opinion is that the developers

My opinion is that developers should not care about your opinions.

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:33 pm
And you cannot even build Firefox on that Raspberry thing.

FF is available for Raspberry Pi's (AArch64). https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/a ... 4-aarch64/

siamhie wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:46 pm

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:33 pm
And you cannot even build Firefox on that Raspberry thing.

FF is available for Raspberry Pi's (AArch64). https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/a ... 4-aarch64/

So?

Reading this topic it strikes me we should have an opinion subforum.

Definition: Belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge

Sadly it seems that even the MX Linux community has been infiltrated.

On the FAQ page it clearly reads:

Lots of other distros are dropping their 32-bit versions. What about MX?

MX has no plans to discontinue 32-bit releases for the foreseeable future.

And still even developers here write answers that implies the complete opposite.

This is how free software loses users and destroys itself. Nothing can be trusted. Even software updates may break a perfectly functioning system because the new version of some package requires some newer instruction set extensions that the host CPU doesn't have. And the developers don't see a problem, because they are on a mission to intentionally destroy everything.

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:54 pm

siamhie wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:46 pm

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:33 pm
And you cannot even build Firefox on that Raspberry thing.

FF is available for Raspberry Pi's (AArch64). https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/a ... 4-aarch64/

So?

Then why did you bring it up in the first place?

siamhie wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 8:35 pm

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:54 pm

siamhie wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:46 pm

FF is available for Raspberry Pi's (AArch64). https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/a ... 4-aarch64/

So?

Then why did you bring it up in the first place?

Did you even read what I wrote?

MX 23.6 which has a 32-bit version will be supported till 2028, if by that time you don't get a computer that's capable of doing 64-bit (which is almost 25 years since the release of AMD 64-bit CPUs) then yes, MX is not for you.

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 5:32 pm Today I browsed online computer shops and noticed that most new laptops still have only 4 GB of RAM. Desktop computers usually have 8 GB. (I also find it weird to use the word "only" when speaking about a memory amount of more than four billion octets.)

Not to belabor a point, but I just checked Best Buy's web site, which is likely a destination for "normie" computer buyers. I didn't see any laptop or desktop models for sale with less than 8 GB or RAM. 4 GB of RAM is more likely to be found on Android or Chromebook tablets these days.

Regarding Linux and software:

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 5:32 pm Now many Linux popular Linux distributions have completely dropped the support for 32-bit targets. Even Debian drops support for 32-bit x86 targets, and the list of its supported computing platform is again one entry shorter. Ubuntu even dropped support for older 64-bit x86 CPUs. Considering that Ubuntu has achieved the status of the most well-known beginner-friendly Linux distribution, this means that less people are going to use Linux - instead they just throw their old computer to trash and buy a new one with Windows 11.

Yep, and most Linux distributions are developed by small groups or teams that aren't compensated for their efforts. It should be unsurprising that they would focus their efforts (i.e., maintain support for only 64-bit x86 CPUs). Alternatively, there are distros that cater to owners of lower spec PC's. MS and Apple drop support for older code to support older machines because the cost / benefit to the company is small, and gets smaller with each passing day.

Adrian wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 8:40 pm MX 23.6 which has a 32-bit version will be supported till 2028, if by that time you don't get a computer that's capable of doing 64-bit (which is almost 25 years since the release of AMD 64-bit CPUs) then yes, MX is not for you.

This is not just about CPUs that don't support long mode. This is also about 64-bit computers that don't have enough memory to make 64-bit Linux distribution a viable choice, and many of those computers are new. Those 64-bit pointers waste too much memory. But of course 32-bit CPUs also benefit from it if the 32-bit binaries are available.

But this is not going anywhere. Based on your toxic writing style, you don't even want to understand what I'm trying to say. Stuff like this is why free software loses users.

Accidentally a double post.

This topic is getting VERY close to being shut down. If you would like to keep it open lets everyone please realize some diplomacy and respect.

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 8:39 pm

siamhie wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 8:35 pm

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:54 pm

So?

Then why did you bring it up in the first place?

Did you even read what I wrote?

Are you wanting to build Firefox or just install it on Arm64 architecture?

Stuff like this is why free software loses users.

Oh our loss... I guess you'll get back to Microsoft and Apple that ended 32-bit support years ago.

Microsoft stopped shipping 32-bit versions of Windows 10 to Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) starting with version 2004, which was released in May 2020

The last version of macOS that supported the execution of 32bit applications was macOS 10.14 “Mojave”, and Apple dropped all support for this version in October 2021

Debian and us support it till 2028.

DukeComposed wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:12 pm OP is trying to paint the picture of Finnish electronics as bleak, outdated, and being left behind by consumption-driven free software projects

Yeah, that's Finland for ya ... Business as usual over here; I'm typing this on a potato a car ran over.

DukeComposed wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:12 pm I'd like to offer the counterpoint that Remedy, the studio behind games like Control and the Max Payne series, is based out of Espoo, outside of Helsinki. They've been in business since the mid-1990s. There are several other Finnish game development studios that could also bear mention who don't seem to have this problem.

On a more semi-serious note, indeed, this thread is like... specifically targeted at me, so I'm trying to practice some restraint. Anyway, Finland: check. Gaming industry: check. Minimum RAM in my desktop systems, while working in said industry, hitting 32 gigabytes something like fifteen years ago already: check. I do realize, when seen in the context of computer tech, I'm not a "normie" in the sense OP frames it. However, I'd bet you in a heartbeat, samwdpckr, that if there's some store/chain over here where "normies", as you called 'em, go and get their computers from... it's GIGANTTI ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elkj%C3%B8p - also known as Elkjøp and Elgiganten elsewhere, hah). Sits firmly in the "let's buy a freezer and a barbeque and a toilet paper holder and a laptop while we're at it" normie category. Okay.

I just checked their laptop selection. 8 gigabytes of RAM or more: 233 laptops. Less than 8 gigabytes: 14 laptops. Uh oh.

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 9:27 pm you don't even want to understand what I'm trying to say

I, for one, understand what you are saying perfectly. It is not epistemologically possible to understand it better. That's in the nature of perfection here in Finland. The problem isn't in understanding, the problem is that, when understood, your stance (and the way you present it) is so hugely, painfully problematic. You aren't open to actually discussing it, and instead call anyone who disagrees a snob. Why, I never!

https://www.jbhifi.com.au/products/asus ... el-celeron
This is a typical low price laptop, sold by one of Australia's biggest electronic chains (with the usual loud tv ads).

4GB RAM is actually still common but these machines are produced for the general consumer market. It seems wrong, but that's how they roll.

richb wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 8:13 pm Reading this topic it strikes me we should have an opinion subforum.

We really shouldn't.

samwdpckr wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 8:29 pm Sadly it seems that even the MX Linux community has been infiltrated.

And there it is: the inevitable "us vs. them" ploy. Cults exercise a number of psychological tactics to recruit and retain members, chief among these being (a) isolation, primarily from friends and family members, and then (b) division from the "others". In the early stages of cult indoctrination there is a strong emphasis on black-and-white, us-or-them, all-or-nothing absolutes, which serves to drive a wedge between a person and his or her existing social and moral bearings.

Cults rarely spend time discussing grey areas or exploring compromises. You are either with the cult, and therefore on the right side, or you are against the cult, and therefore on the wrong side. Any dissent is an attack, any hesitation is a personal moral failing. Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion. Critique is heresy, objections are a sign of infiltration by the amorphous and nefarious "others", probably the same evildoers who quietly urge open source software developers to write 64-bit software and invest more time on the platforms their users utilize most and less time on the obsolete, unpopular ones.

Now OP can take umbrage and claim the moral high ground once again. Lo, he is more righteous than MX Linux. He is more righteous than all the Finnish tech forums who have already banned him. The MX community has been "infiltrated" with "wrong thinking" or downright evil machinations, purely because some of us do not wholeheartedly agree with OP's point of view. It was so easy, I didn't even feel a thing.

4 legs good, 2 legs bad. 32 bits good, 64 bits bad. It's all the same playbook, only 80 years later than George Orwell framed it, and a lot less entertaining IMO. Finland only uses low-end hardware (except for all the Finns who don't). Raspberry Pis can't compile Firefox (except the ones that can). All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. Two plus two is five. I love Big Brother. Et cetera, et cetera.

Very well. I'll be wrong. I'll be whatever it takes to avoid this kind of incongruous crackpot attitude in my community thumping their x86 instruction manuals and complaining that the death of 32-bit distributions, which MX hasn't planned or announced in any way, is Wrong and Bad and Not What Jesus Would Do and Shame On You Anyway for some unelaborated-upon reason.

I've got a feeling the OP is trying to finagle his way into being the 32 bit kernel compiler volunteer for MX since Debian no longer has any for Trixie (for almost a year now.). Then he can piece together his own hack of a 32 bit version of MX 25.

Nokkaelaein wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 11:04 pm Yeah, that's Finland for ya :rock: ... Business as usual over here; I'm typing this on a potato a car ran over.

So long as the potato now has a salty, licorice-flavored quality to it and is called something like "flavenjaatsi", I'm OK with it.

Nokkaelaein wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 11:12 pm I, for one, understand what you are saying perfectly. It is not epistemologically possible to understand it better. That's in the nature of perfection here in Finland. The problem isn't in understanding, the problem is that, when understood, your stance (and the way you present it) is so hugely, painfully problematic. You aren't open to actually discussing it, and instead call anyone who disagrees a snob. Why, I never!

In reading this thread, I thought two things. The second one was "I really hope Nokkaelaein chimes in on this." While we don't always agree, I respect Nokkaelaein's opinions and I always find them worth reading. I'm not sure what it is; maybe it's the even tone or the clear exemplification of experience conveyed in his words. He's not always right, but he's clear on his stance and willing to back up his rationale. I don't in any way condone a battle of wits here, Finn versus Finn, now or at any point in the future. But I know who'd I'd bet on if such a thing ever occurred.

DukeComposed wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 3:41 am I'm not sure what it is; maybe it's the even tone or the clear exemplification of experience conveyed in his words. He's not always right, but he's clear on his stance and willing to back up his rationale.

This is so true about you, too . Glad you're here.

Ah, a Finnish love fest, I think it's time for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jnEhM2qyPE

We get flocks of sheep in Australia, although cattle, horses, camels and some really big kangaroos (of course) roam free too, making night driving a bit dodgy, even for big road trains.
There are still some 'long paddocks', aka crown land roadside commons that represent old stock routes and seasonal grazing options, visible as generous roadside verges, property boundaries set scores, or hundred, of meters back. People still use them, with horses and mobile camps, typically with a herd of cattle.

Adrian wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 8:38 am Ah, a Finnish love fest, I think it's time for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jnEhM2qyPE

haha(rgh)

Herds like this are much more familiar to me here in the south:

https://youtu.be/EQqZT4qnKVY?t=88

...

Now that the thread is already this random, I'd also like to add: DukeComposed, that "Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion" scene you posted is magnificent. An excellent pick. And there are so many exceptional scenes in that film, ah. What really elevates moments like this is the use of sound: that ominous ambient backdrop creeping in while those two suburban mothers are having their conversation. It's wonderful and Lynchesque (without feeling like a pastiche) and so genuinely effective.

Get back on topic folks.

j2mcgreg wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 9:51 am Get back on topic folks.

There's some confusion about that I think, but a Chat thread posting was a good call.

tascoast wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 10:00 am

j2mcgreg wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 9:51 am Get back on topic folks.

There's some confusion about that I think, but a Chat thread posting was a good call.

Why is there confusion? The title is very clear and does not refer to reindeer herds.

Wow could in all reality be by not seeing any longer Packaged systems laptops netbooks and the sorts no longer support 1,2,4,8 gig of Ram. Simple answer.

it all is based back in time to a small tiny minded individual "Bill Gates" making the rather podium staged comment. No computer really ever needs greater of 640k of ram. for then "Dos" ripped off from Xerox as self and mr Steve Jobs managed to make it work and resell it back to those whom would comply the idea a computer in the home
might become a something like a Microwave unit and TV started to take over Living-Rooms.

Go figure Win-X progression/evolution thru the times. Now super Bloat ware for the computer to running " that other OS " for it to run smooth the minimal requirements are beyond reason. The Lie and feature to Costs of Ram then was rough on the pocket book and bank budget now its pennies to the gig. Division of partnerships between Bill and Steve
Look at Steve Today. Mac still in most all case run off a EEPROM and size can matter. Yet supporting files can then be off loaded to the hard disc or other memory media. ssd m2.nvme etc.
yet linux purs like a sleek Jaguar. fire up Htop or Top and see running memory is under 2gig in memory space used. "Depending"
Even here in write - 64g ram MX 23.6 kernel 6.14.6-1 Virtualbox and guest running with F/Fox logged in here. and well 6.55g consumed. And all that over head cheese. ! Just a thought. Cheers.

It must be gratifying to be the instigator of such a long thread.

atomick wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 11:22 am a small tiny minded individual "Bill Gates" making the rather podium staged comment. No computer really ever needs greater of 640k of ram. for then "Dos" ripped off from Xerox

Wah.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22bill ... 40kb+quote

I'll take light-hearted off topic in a chat subsection, over misrepresentations like that, any day. Also: "You can talk about other distros or OS's here (talk or discuss, not bash for any reason)"

arjaybe wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 11:31 am It must be gratifying to be the instigator of such a long thread.

Most likely yes.

You folks had your chance to get back on topic. This thread is now locked. But feel free to start another thread on reindeer or caribou migration patterns if you wish.