MX Linux Forum

I've posted before that I think our MX-type installer is the easiest installer in the Debian family. Much more importantly, it's the quickest. That matters more than "ease"--how long the installer takes.

I thought specifically to compare it to Calamares, because almost every Debian-based distro I've tried uses Calamares, almost to the point that Calamares is the default Debian installer when the designer doesn't want to put any effort into making their own, like Warren Woodford and then the MX team did. (Notwithstanding that I don't remember what installer any of the *Buntus use, because I avoid using the buntus; and my only experience with their installer is when I helped a family member install Mint.) Calamares is considerably more complex than the MX installer, and takes considerably longer.

I also honestly think that offering an MX -type installer would tend to increase the popularity of any distro. I continually marvel that it hasn't been widely borrowed. It simply works.

I like the Calamares installer and used it on several distros I tested (Manjaro, Zorin, LinuxMint etc ).
I think one gets used to it and once you install one distro that's uses it you get familiar with all distros that use it.
My example here:
Like I said I've used Calamares several times so it becomes easy.
When I installed MX Linux on 2 laptops I got a bit confused.
I installed openSUSE XFCE on my old test Toshiba laptop from 2007. And is now dual booting with MX Linux using the MX GRUB Bootloader.
They also have their own custom installer. Then again I got confused. I wanted to test the Live XFCE from the USB and then install it.
I guess they don't allow you to test before installing on bare metal (at least I didn't get it how it's done).
Their installer comes with all their DE I could only decide for XFCE if I'm in the process of installing.
openSUSE installer is 10x more confusing than MX. Not user friendly.

A few years ago we looked at transitioning to Calamares but we were going to have to write a whole new module to deal with the antiX live system so in the end we did the big update to minstall. and ak-47 really took the bull by the horns and has modernized it quite a bit. Its had some growing pains, but I think its worth it in the end.

dolphin_oracle wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 8:12 am A few years ago we looked at transitioning to Calamares but we were going to have to write a whole new module to deal with the antiX live system so in the end we did the big update to minstall. and ak-47 really took the bull by the horns and has modernized it quite a bit. Its had some growing pains, but I think its worth it in the end.

While it needs to operate properly and get the job done, how much emphasis should be put on the installer anyway? I mean, you use it once in maybe two or four years, right? (Or longer if you're like me.) It's great that we've got people willing and able to make it as good as it is, but in the big picture the team's finite time and resources are better spent on areas that impact the user on a regular basis.

dolphin_oracle wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 8:12 am A few years ago we looked at transitioning to Calamares but we were going to have to write a whole new module to deal with the antiX live system so in the end we did the big update to minstall. and ak-47 really took the bull by the horns and has modernized it quite a bit. Its had some growing pains, but I think its worth it in the end.

I think it should remain the same. Some "improvements" to make it more friendly to new users are always welcome.
I gave the example of openSUSE because I feel that they don't want regular new user's to try their OS.
It's like they have their fan base which usually are people that have been using Linux for years and are advanced users so they don't have a learning curve.
I consider myself a ultra beginner although I have been using Linux for some time (Manjaro, Zorin Lite, LMDE and now MX).
My problem is I'm just a casual user. I have little time to learn stuff.
Some distros Devs still don't get that In the coming year or so there will be a massive user base coming from Win10 (that I still use). And since there's a zilion distros the ones that make it easier on new users are the ones who are going to get the most share.

dolphin_oracle wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 8:12 am A few years ago we looked at transitioning to Calamares but we were going to have to write a whole new module to deal with the antiX live system so in the end we did the big update to minstall. and ak-47 really took the bull by the horns and has modernized it quite a bit. Its had some growing pains, but I think its worth it in the end.

If I remember correctly one of the thing with Calamares is that it installs an "image" while our installer installs whatever you have at the moment (so if you remove/add/update packages it installs the changes) which I think is more intuitive and a feature that I would not like to lose.

JesusLinux wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 8:29 am Some distros Devs still don't get that In the coming year or so there will be a massive user base coming from Win10 (that I still use). And since there's a zilion distros the ones that make it easier on new users are the ones who are going to get the most share.

I really do not see that happening, too many Windows users simply will not use anything else.
They will either buy a new computer, or do the workaround with Rufus and install W11 on their old computer and use it until an update makes it stop booting and then buy a new computer.

jeffreyC wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 12:50 pm I really do not see that happening, too many Windows users simply will not use anything else.
They will either buy a new computer, or do the workaround with Rufus and install W11 on their old computer and use it until an update makes it stop booting and then buy a new computer.

This is highly probable, except most Windows users aren't technical enough to navigate reinstalling anything with Rufus. If dentists' offices back in 2014 when Windows XP went EOL were any indicator, a good portion of Windows 10 users will just keep using Windows 10.

Hi,

Certainly not, For Windows business/industry Users and those who rely on specialized proprietary software that doesn't exist (yet) in fully functional Linux ports (ie much pro graphics, audio, video and emerging AI stuff) Linux will not a be viable option even when considering how much it's competence across many workflows has improved. people won't take a step downward in functionality very easily especially when you add the mentioned fact that so few non-geeks are even aware that the OS on their device can be replaced. Unless Linux starts appearing pre-loaded and not hidden in the fine print as an option from more and more mainstream computer and tablet manufacturers and unless cleverly marketed devices like 'Linuxbooks' start getting as 'solid' a reputation as Chromebooks then I think it's delusional to think there will be a massive influx of Windows 10 Users. If there is a Linux percentage increase at all in the wake of Win 10's EOL then it remains to be seen if all of those tire kickers will even remain on the Platform.. My guess is that that event will roughly coincide with Wayland being strong-armed into all Distros and DE's and the Windows folks will run screaming for the hills (or the Apple store).

Don't underestimate the will for Software developers and vendors to come up with ways to keep Win 10 on life-support or extend it's service life in other ways. I'm always astounded by the amount of Windows application developers that still list WinXP as a supported platform and continue to supply 32bit binaries.

The issue is Linux isn't there completely enough for Big business, Industrial and power Users and for the large amount folks who simply do Social Media and email the technical curiosity and ability will not be there to replace Windows 10 on their devices and their phone has already taken over most of those functions. Getting Linux into the hands of the vast majority of non-technical people will be tied to it being ready to use and reliable on devices at the point of sale, not being installed later.

Indeed.. those now on Win10 will move to 12 or so eventually. My dad is a perfect example. I have heard him say: Win 95 is stupid (he was on 3something), I am NEVER using XP (when he was on 98), I will NEVER use 7, I will NEVER move away from 7 to 10.

He's on 10 now, he'll NEVER use 11. And indeed he won't. They skip stuff, and will just buy a new computer with the latest win version once stuff they want no longer works and surrender.

Eadwine Rose wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:39 pm Indeed.. those now on Win10 will move to 12 or so eventually. My dad is a perfect example. I have heard him say: Win 95 is stupid (he was on 3something), I am NEVER using XP (when he was on 98), I will NEVER use 7, I will NEVER move away from 7 to 10.

He's on 10 now, he'll NEVER use 11. And indeed he won't. They skip stuff, and will just buy a new computer with the latest win version once stuff they want no longer works and surrender.

Haha, elderly parents and technology... I feel your pain!

AVLinux wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:44 pm

Eadwine Rose wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:39 pm Indeed.. those now on Win10 will move to 12 or so eventually. My dad is a perfect example. I have heard him say: Win 95 is stupid (he was on 3something), I am NEVER using XP (when he was on 98), I will NEVER use 7, I will NEVER move away from 7 to 10.

He's on 10 now, he'll NEVER use 11. And indeed he won't. They skip stuff, and will just buy a new computer with the latest win version once stuff they want no longer works and surrender.

Haha, elderly parents and technology... I feel your pain!

Hey I am elderly and got on Linux as soon as I retired 19 years ago from a large company.

You're young compared to my dad

@richb

Haha you're one of the good ones! We always need the strong exception to the rule! My parents are 99 and 96, my father won't touch these devil boxes with a 10 foot pole but my Mom was a Linux user (sorry it was Mint, I didn't even push AVL on her) starting from her mid-80's until she had to move into assisted living and adopted an iPad..

Woooow.. awesome ages. :)

AVLinux wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:55 pm
The issue is Linux isn't there completely enough for Big business, Industrial and power Users and for the large amount folks who simply do Social Media and email the technical curiosity and ability will not be there to replace Windows 10 on their devices and their phone has already taken over most of those functions. Getting Linux into the hands of the vast majority of non-technical people will be tied to it being ready to use and reliable on devices at the point of sale, not being installed later.

The only real success I ever had converting unsophisticated Windows users -- and I gave it up long ago -- was doing clean installs of Mepis or Mint KDE or MX KDE on old slow kit with an outdated WinOS and setting up their browsers and importing their documents. Even then, they eventually ended up buying a new computer and ending up back with Windows. If a cheap Linux laptop was available at Best Buy or Office Depot (USA) it might have had some traction, but even then it couldn't compete pricewise for the average Joe just wanting to buy something to do email and Internet.

uncle mark wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 4:02 pm

AVLinux wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:55 pm Getting Linux into the hands of the vast majority of non-technical people will be tied to it being ready to use and reliable on devices at the point of sale, not being installed later.

If a cheap Linux laptop was available at Best Buy or Office Depot (USA) it might have had some traction

If you've ever wondered why you've never heard of a major PC OEM selling a machine that dual-boots by default, consider the link I provide in this thread to a Byte magazine article by Scot Hacker called "He Who Controls the Bootloader".

uncle mark wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 8:26 am how much emphasis should be put on the installer anyway?

Some, for the simple reason that it's what users see first. Distros need an installer that doesn't annoy or "scare away" newbies. More than that, the promise of a fast installation would attract them. Why not? The speed of the MEPIS/MX installer is one of the "selling points" that keeps me using MX, and I'm not a newbie. Keeping in mind that early versions of our installer were developed by Mr. Woodford for MEPIS, I've been using our installer for eighteen years (having discovered MEPIS in 2006).

AVLinux wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:55 pm Certainly not, For Windows business/industry Users and those who rely on specialized proprietary software that doesn't exist (yet) in fully functional Linux ports (ie much pro graphics, audio, video and emerging AI stuff...

You can add CAD and BIM software to the list.

Melber wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 4:47 pm

AVLinux wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:55 pm Certainly not, For Windows business/industry Users and those who rely on specialized proprietary software that doesn't exist (yet) in fully functional Linux ports (ie much pro graphics, audio, video and emerging AI stuff...

You can add CAD and BIM software to the list.

Good point!

I'm keeping my eye on System76, no they'll never make Dell or HP quake in their boots but with a range of good quality components, their own boot Firmware and this new Cosmic rewrite of their own Linux OS looking more impressive with each release I think they may find a growing niche which may open the door to other companies taking a serious swing at eking out more market share. For all I've said I think there is a bit of potential market share up for grabs from computer literate Gen-X'ers and early Millennial 'Pro-sumers' who are generally proficient on computers and find the level of things like Gimp, Libreoffice, Kdenlive, VLC etc to be sufficient for their purposes.

AVLinux wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:55 pm Linux will not a be viable option even when considering how much it's competence across many workflows has improved.

Does this mean 2025 won't be the Year of the Desktop?

siamhie wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 5:08 pm

AVLinux wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:55 pm Linux will not a be viable option even when considering how much it's competence across many workflows has improved.

Does this mean 2025 won't be the Year of the Desktop?

Haha, good one!!