MX Linux Forum

Request:


Home Automation for MX - Simple and easy to use, and with a minimum need for connecting with the Internet.




Please. :-)

Moved to package requests, please be mindful of posting locations.

Jakob77 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:11 am Request:


Home Automation for MX - Simple and easy to use, and with a minimum need for connecting with the Internet.




Please. :-)

Please request a SPECIFIC package/application, and provide the proper link to the package source code. Your first post is VERY vague.

It was posted within bugs and non-package requests, originally.

Now I wonder what to do with this thing, since, as you say, user is not being specific.

Jakob77 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:11 am Request:


Home Automation for MX - Simple and easy to use, and with a minimum need for connecting with the Internet.




Please. :-)

@Jakob77
As you discovered in your original post on this topic:
viewtopic.php?t=75426
the Home Automation package requires Python 3.10, but that package is no longer available. Had you extended your research a bit more you also would have found that MX 21 currently uses Python 3.9.2-3. MX and Python have moved forward, but the Home Automation package has not been updated appropriately. As a result it will not install / work with MX 21.

@j2mcgreg wouldnt that be Python 3.10 isnt available in MX21 yet ? ( we are at 3.9 now)

CharlesV wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:45 am @j2mcgreg wouldnt that be Python 3.10 isnt available in MX21 yet ? ( we are at 3.9 now)

You're right. I did some more digging and the OP got some other things wrong:
the proper name is Home Assistant and its an OS that is meant to be run in a VM. See here:
https://www.home-assistant.io/installation/linux

or directly on a raspbery Pi:
https://www.home-assistant.io/

aye, running on a raspberry pi makes the most sense.

asqwerth wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:27 am

Jakob77 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:11 am Request:


Home Automation for MX - Simple and easy to use, and with a minimum need for connecting with the Internet.




Please. :-)

Please request a SPECIFIC package/application, and provide the proper link to the package source code. Your first post is VERY vague.

I am not requesting any specific software because I am not qualified to choose or write it.
And requesting software just to test can likely be a waste of the developers time.

In my opinion it might be best to make it a part of the main distro as one more MX tool but I have no conditions about it.
At the moment I can't find Home Automation software for MX anywhere, so to me it looks like a job for the pioneers.

Please re-read j2mcgreg's response. Post #7.

Maybe a better way to request this would be to find dependencies for the package, install it in a vm and see what / how it works. Then, once you have the working package you can figure out what it takes to get that onto MX and request those dependencies.
( ie you know that you cant load it because of Python 3.10, so that would be a good first start.)

I think j2mcgreg hit on it though... why not start at that link he posted and figure out what it takes to put it on a raspberry? THAT makes more sense to me than a full blown machine running MX if your attempting to save power. (And, I believe I saw a MX raspberry respin around here.)

I'd agree on the matter, that MX is not the right OS to run your home automation from. MX is an operation system for desktop PCs and home automation is not supposed to be run from desktop PCs. So they are inherently different things.

Is it now a new policy or another forum rule that a MX computer is not allowed to do things automatically.?
I believe it has to do with hard core automation that needs real-time, but the truth is you can do a lot with less.
In the other subject I mentioned a wireless printer.
That is automatic and remote controlled.
How can we print with MX but it is impossible and maybe even ethical forbidden to let MX turn on the light in the yard.?
Doesn't it sound silly to you.?
It does to me.

If you look at Home Assistant and their sensors you don't need imagination to understand all the wishes there can be added, but actually just being able to turn simple switches on and off in a timetable would in my opinion be a huge step forward for man kind.

If it is not all too hard about hard- and software I want MX to take that first step.

It is about saving electricity when it is expensive, and that is just as much about using it when it is cheap.
I believe the electricity used by the MX computer in this case is negligible. The heat might often even be wanted and therefore not a waste.


Many takes it for granted it has to run 24/7 but that is not necessarily the case.
Here it is normally in the afternoon the price is low.
Then I can at noon configure how many heaters I want to turn on when for the following few hours when I do other things. And the computer can be turned off at night.
Today I have to walk 100 yards around to turn switches on and remember to be there in time to turn them off again.
Can you soon begin to understand how silly it is if anyone has to buy one more computer to maintain and install until they faint just to do so simple things.?

It has nothing to do with the Forum. You are getting opinions from users.

@Jakob77 I had to do an install today which required python 3.10.8. (3.10.10 is current)

I followed the instructions here,
https://tecadmin.net/how-to-install-pyt ... debian-11/

with the only deviation - I had to use sudo on this line All looked fine and worked perfect afterwards. Might be useful in your quest for that home automation running on MX.

read here about this home-assistent first time, very interesting, so i
looked up, and get some thoughts (!warning)

so just my 1 ct stupid thoughts, may be total nonsense, but?:

-home assistent says it comes with docker(to install in vm), so maybe there is no real version problem?
-when running mx in a vm on mx, it has been using significantly less cpu than ubuntu when idle, when i tried
it last time: mx seems to need less energy when idle, so maybe in general, too?
-so running a home automation on a vm on a mx may be not that absurd idea, especially because
there are mx-flavours out there running on raspberry, so once getting it running on normal machine,
it may be not that difficult to set it up on rapsberry ...

MX Team is not going to implement this, but since chatting about it keeps going, it'll go into chat. Moved.

CharlesV wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:10 pm @Jakob77 I had to do an install today which required python 3.10.8. (3.10.10 is current)

I followed the instructions here,
https://tecadmin.net/how-to-install-pyt ... debian-11/

with the only deviation - I had to use sudo on this line

Code: Select all

sudo make altinstall 

All looked fine and worked perfect afterwards. Might be useful in your quest for that home automation running on MX.

Thank you. I think you ought to give it to the developers in another request. Code that works can be hard to find and you are a bit of an eagle.

But I am loosing motivation for HA
It feels like using a backhoe for a tea spoon.
mxrd's post also confirms my suspicion about overlooking something.
I have zero experience with Virtual Box.
Is it the same as DOS Box there is a motor running constantly using a lot of energy just to hold up the environment for what is going on in the box.?

If that is the case I don't think it is a good solution for a program that has to be on standby most of the time.

Can we even control everything from the box or do we still need one of those small rasp computers.?


If I use a printer it also activates the CPU but only for a short time. I think it ought to be the same with a switch that turns the water heater on and off.

VirtualBox does keep cpu cycles running if your running a VM all the time. However, 1) its not THAT much more cycles if your computer is always on, and 2) you can setup a timer to spin up a VM when you want it to start up.

Example - I have 2 VM's running always, and a few other applications on that computer, and the cpu is roughly 20% at all times, until one of the VM's does something. One is for cameras and recording, and one is a server, so both are engaged all the time, with various loads. And then routinely I kick up two more VM's, and those DEV and testing VM's will take me to approx 75% cpu - but that is 4 VM's running at the same time and those last two VM's are pretty intensive too.

Personally, I think the raspberry pi is a better solution for Home Automation and it seems to be the way things are going.


As for the entire Home Automation thing.. I can see where it might be good form some things, however in my opinion, there are a lot of things you can do to a house ( at least here in the states ), that can reduce energy use, and pretty efficiently too. Switching out light switches to ones that have motion detectors in them can be a huge savings right there. Running a few timed devices for power if you want them, and then moving to LED lights and various energy efficient devices all makes a huge difference. And if your heating and cooling is not already in a programmed state, then your loosing already.

For me, the cost of a dedicated computer to "automate", plus the costs of all the devices to automate, and then expense of running it all is a much higher cost then these things I just mentioned. The cost savings is interesting when you map all this out and compare automation vs energy efficient devices. I did this a few years back and was kind of shocked at how little savings a dedicated system for me really was in comparison. (of course, I shut off lights when not a room, and have already outfitted all lights with LED.) My biggest energy drain are 2 refrigerators, two computers always on, and then A/C in the summer. Since home automation wont tackle any of those issues... /-/

That is smart. Then we just need some Home Automation to set the timer for waking up the box. LOL

From my point of view things are going from a place where we have 98% of the population not yet understanding what it is about and 1% has left them in the dessert while they create a lot of light show fun for themselves.

What it really ought to be about is yet to be discovered.


1) When you play with light you almost always do it for convenience and/or security.

That is not necessarily wrong just be aware of it being a 'luxury'.


2) When you play with cameras you almost always do it for convenience and/or security.

That is not necessarily wrong just be aware of it being a 'luxury'.


If you afterwards calculate the time and hardware costs and find out it was bad business for saving money don't be surprised. The project was on other tracks right from the start.



If you want to save the money and the energy and the world from 3. WW you need to get the priorities straight.
In some places that can be complicated but in Denmark it is getting pretty easy because the price is lowest when the energy is sustainable.

So the important thing is to control the most energy greedy devices and focus on them.

It is about when to charge the electric car and other things but for most people IRL today it is mostly about heat and hot water.

A/C is also about heat but I don't think the factory that build heat pumps has understood yet how important it is to be able to regulate them with simple Linux Home Automation.
Maybe you can.?

In many homes the most obvious thing to control is one or more electric water heaters in the summer time. But if the price is high only in prime time the same time every day a switch in a watch can do the job as well. Just please understand if it is not a weak cable system but actually the wind and sun that sets the price you can't do that anymore. That is the way it is going in Denmark and I like it. The people just need to adjust in time (we are already far behind) or there can be a risk of a lot of bad expensive implications instead of a lot of cheap clean electricity.

Eadwine Rose

I'm wondering if you can grant a waiver from the rules so we can link to hardware relevant for Home Automation for a while and discuss pricing and compatibility etc.?
I think it will make it a bit easier to discuss economy, market and MX compatibility if it doesn't have to be a secret what hardware we are talking about.

What forum rule are you referring to? No waivers from Forum Rules will be granted.

richb wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:51 am What forum rule are you referring to? No waivers from Forum Rules will be granted.

Since you can't see any, then I don't know why I should, so I will just take it as a green light and hope it helps.

Be aware that if any further posts do violate the Forum Rules they will be sanctioned.

EDIT: Possibly the wrong word used. not sanctioned but deleted and perhaps the topic to be closed.

richb wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:02 am Be aware that if any further posts do violate the Forum Rules they will be sanctioned.

I am sorry but I don't understand. What do you mean by 'any further'.?

Any new posts made in the topic violating forum rules.

Future, new.

Just because your current plans don't break the rules does not mean we will not watch the posts still to come.

Okay, then I guess we are hitting the same wavelength after all.
That is if you just tell me green light doesn't mean green light for anything as for instance spamming advertisements.
Let's just handle with care please. We don't need cheat but we do need some hardware for Home Automation and some room to dig in deep.


Could it be worth trying to make a switch manufacturer interested.?

We will treat this as a normal topic, just like any other. Not as something that will become something official now or in the future.

@Jakob77 Maybe the first step of this is to create a couple of urls for the mfg's or specific products you want to spotlight and see how people react?

If there is interest, then see about including a person from the mfg?

I know personally, I would rather hear about people USING the product, how it worked / didnt work for them. Then based on that, I can deep dive into a product and go after reviews. (personally - I take very little from sales peeps regarding their products. ;/

Eadwine Rose

No, nothing dramatic. A few hundred journalists from the world press should be enough.



CharlesV

You are so right but the problem is I don't know anything that works the way I want it to yet.
I mostly hope if any reader has anything they won't hold it back.

But I can see a switch in itself doesn't have to be very expensive in Denmark.
For instance this one for less than 15$:

Wi-Fi stikkontakt 109,00 kr
https://www.harald-nyborg.dk/tp-link-smart-stikkontakt

Jakob77 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:43 pm CharlesV

You are so right but the problem is I don't know anything that works the way I want it to yet.
I mostly hope if any reader has anything they won't hold it back.

But I can see a switch in itself doesn't have to be very expensive in Denmark.
For instance this one for less than 15$:

Wi-Fi stikkontakt 109,00 kr
https://www.harald-nyborg.dk/tp-link-smart-stikkontakt

SO, a great method of finding what you MAY want, is to do some research with as many reviews / people on those as possible. (here on the forum is limited, obviously, so bringing a specific device or asking about a specific device might be better. )

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=tp-sma ... 9-1&ia=web

And, I would advocate doing those *first* and then once you have some products you like, ask here.

or

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=smart+outlet+ ... 9-1&ia=web

can provide some good reading and then narrow searching adding linux into that. Another method head for the device list in that post Home Automation link. The had a good list of devices that work with their software - and THAT is perfect to start with, then cross reference user reviews.

EDIT: code to links

After a loooong while.... Thank you for the inspiration. :-)



I hope I with this subject also have started some MX brain work.
My brain is puzzling a little with it almost every day.

Beside that I haven't done much yet.
Mostly because I am afraid to waste work, do wrong and end up with a not satisfying solution or a stone dead end.

I don't know if any of the developers are working on it.
For all I know we can be several 100 users who work on Home Automation in 100 different directions and we all end up frustrated with dead ends because we didn't coordinate the work.

I think we have to organize it somehow, and I believe we also might need users with small coding skills but bigger internet- and writing skills for finding stuff and making applications and so on.

If you might want to help sometime you can just post it here so it is easy to find you if someone wants to ask you later. :-)







If someone knows something about laws for 27 Mhz (walkie talkie band and maybe 35 and 40Mhz) on a global level, perhaps he can help determine if that is a dead end for Home Automation.?
If it is not against the law maybe we ought to think about that also. There is missing some hardware but if we can make it work we can bypass most of the wifi trouble, and the range can be many times longer without any repeater.

Jakob77 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 7:29 am
I don't know if any of the developers are working on it.

for the record we are not.

dolphin_oracle wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 9:10 am

Jakob77 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 7:29 am
I don't know if any of the developers are working on it.

for the record we are not.

Thank you for the information. In a way you just did because then I don't have to fear that my work for it will collide with the developers.


I will now begin to write to some hardware dealers and ask for a switch that is compatible with Linux. Not necessarily a fancy interface, just so it can be turned on and off by a Terminal command.

CharlesV wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:50 pm
And, I would advocate doing those *first* and then once you have some products you like, ask here.

If you have time for it sometime I have some new questions for you. :-)



Track 1:


Can you tell me a bit about what this is supposed to be capable of:

MX-23.1 Rasbperry Pi OS respin, beta released.
viewtopic.php?t=78272

In order to take a closer look I have been trying to install it but I can't find the respin ".iso" file I expected, and I can't find a MX-tool or other tools to handle ".img" files either. Maybe you can help me with that.?

I also would like to know a little about the options before I dig in.

As I understand it you can make a card or a USB-stick to boot on for one of those small computers you can buy f.i.:
https://raspberrypi.dk/produkt/raspberry-pi-5-8-gb/

Does it have to be a Raspberry Pi or can you use an ordinary computer for it as well instead.?






Track 2:


I have found a different switch. :-)

Linux USB Relay Controller
http://scotttactical.com/linux-usb-relay-controller/

So I have ordered this exiting toy for me for Christmas:

USB Relay Controller - Four Channel - PCB
https://www.kmtronic.com/usb-relays.html?product_id=53

It is four switches in one, and the most important things I want to controle are located in the same room small enough to overcome the wireing.
So my plan is to make just one MX computer run that show.

It is supposed to be turned on all the time and once a day it connects to the Internet and downloads a list with the electricity prices on hourly basis. From the list it will find the lowest prices and turn on some switches according to that.

It sounds easy, and I have a strong feeling it is possible.
But there are some small and big things that has to fall into place first.

I have to find a stable page from where I am allowed to download the list.
These guys won't have it:
https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market ... view=table
So I will have to ask the company that sells me the electricity, and I assume they are willing to help but I don't know that for sure yet.

And then there is the scripting which is a puzzle where I am missing some pieces.

I don't know the best way to handle it but I will be looking for a some small scripts.
For instance:

1) A small script that can download a homepage and convert it into a text file.

2) A small script that can find the lowest numbers from a list in a text file and send commands to the relays when it is time.. (oh boy.. this will be difficult lol)

3) A small script that can send an email with the content from a text file.

4) A small script that can convert an email to a text file.


As you understand it is all still far from urgent and not fully thought through yet, but if you or others has some inspiration or advice about how I can find the missing pieces I will be grateful. :-)

I thought this was dead and buried..

He might be if he's wiring the relays into mains power without understanding what he's doing. Professional installs of this sort use contactors and purpose-designed relays for this reason, not some cheap how-ya-doin hobbyist relays.

I am also aware of the irony of using a computer that consumes 50-100 watts at idle that is on 24/7 to switch on and off things based on electricity prices. Downloading the list would also use up some bandwidth/data so charges from the ISP may apply too.

Plus, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO7RuBTYqaw

In many homes the most obvious thing to control is one or more electric water heaters in the summer time. But if the price is high only in prime time the same time every day a switch in a watch can do the job as well. Just please understand if it is not a weak cable system but actually the wind and sun that sets the price you can't do that anymore.

@Jakob77
Where I am the major use of electrical power is cooling in Summer. OTOH a major saver of power, especially in summer is solar water heating (here it is mandatory in all new residential building)
Is that a possibility in your location?

@AK-47 if you use a raspberry pi its around 5 watts.
And my 2ct,s is the ways all want you to use the internet and a phone to control things, I use node-red and nobody else. That is why i have always trouble to find things that work independent of the net and google..

@AK-47

It is good you warn about that 220 volt is dangerous to mess with.
I'm mostly afraid of it because I hate getting shocks.
But unless it's very unfortunate, I'll probably only get bristly hair.

If you think about Track 2
viewtopic.php?p=755983#p755983
I believe the security risk will be very low.
It will likely not matter if they crack my wifi. They will also be up against a MX-Linux computer before they can mess with my relays.
viewtopic.php?p=756537#p756537
And the things I plan to control are not as critical as for instance the room temperature is.
If it fails so the hot water gets cold or hotter all the time for a day or two it is not a big deal.
Also if the heat pump is heating some more water for a few days is not a big deal.
However if it works well for a year I recon there can be saved a good amount of money and coal.
How much will depend on the government, and at the moment they are hurting the project with unintelligent taxes and too little will to put up more windmills.
But over the last two years and with war in Ukraine there has been a huge variety in the electricity prices on daily and hourly basis.
30-60 Watt for a MX computer is not much to talk about if the 3000 Watt water heater alone can run at half price or sometimes even make money.
Most of the energy for the computer will also help heating up the room where it is put so it won't be pure waste.

About downloading the price list I hope to get it for free.
I am waiting for an answer from these guys:
https://www.energidataservice.dk/

As I see it the biggest hurdle for me will be to make the scripts I need to download the list and make the computer find the right time to turn the relays on and off.

Do you perhaps have some advice about how I find the codes for some of it.?

I believe the Home Assistant people has made something for Windows but can that help anything in MX.?



In case this subject is also locked soon, I will be happy to receive any inspiration and hints about the script codes in a PM from anyone.





@MikeR

No, in Denmark where I live, the sun never shines...
Just kidding.

I did use some old radiators to heat water for some years but it was hardly worth it because I lost too much heat in the long pipes I have here.
I know a small summer place where it works very well.
However I believe solar panels are so cheap now that they in most cases will be a better solution.

Jakob77 wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:09 amIt is good you warn about that 220 volt is dangerous to mess with.
I'm mostly afraid of it because I hate getting shocks.
But unless it's very unfortunate, I'll probably only get bristly hair.

220 V can and will kill you, there's also nasty illnesses like arrythmia that can come from a shock even if you survive - please be careful with what you're doing and don't play it down.

It's the other way around - you have to get lucky to get away with bristly hair (it depends on how well you're grounded, the better the more likely it will kill you). There's a reason ground leakage circuit breakers are mandatory in most (if not all) of Europe.

It's more the possibility of arc flash and the relay exploding in one's hand or catching fire during operation because of it not having the correct properties or being of insufficient build quality and insulation strength and output isolation that is worth being concerned about. Speaking of arc tracking, you may find without sufficient isolation the 220V gets dumped into your beloved MX box via the USB port. These kinds of failure modes (particularly when carbon traces form due to insects or surges) which are much more subtle than just getting bristly hairdo electric shocks.

For your own protection, you should get a pair of these (or similar):
https://www.uline.ca/Product/Detail/S-2 ... kwQAvD_BwE

Yes, yes, yes, I agree with you all.

So can I have the scripts now.?



AK-47

The electric water heater is 380V and 3000 Watt.
That is too much for the USB relays I have, so it has to be a small USB relay activating a bigger relay to turn it on.
I have already bought the bigger relay also, so I am a bit prepared. :-)

Jakob77 wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:56 am Yes, yes, yes, I agree with you all.

So can I have the scripts now.?

I didn't know our forum name was MX Google?

The MX Forum is for help with MX, not a general research and help site for whatever strikes your fancy.

Actually it's MX Ask Jeeves!

Back on Track 2.

My search for electricity prices on hourly basis for download has taken me to this page:

https://www.energidataservice.dk/tso-el ... spotprices

And with a link like this I can download a list:

https://api.energidataservice.dk/datase ... es?limit=5

To a file:
The content of the file then looks like this:

That is pretty ugly, and I realize more than ever before that the size of the trouble we will have using the data depends on the output.

Therefore I am thinking about asking the company somehow to make it beautiful for us.
It is just not that easy to get the details in place, and I don't know if I can make them do it but I do know I better ask for the right output the first time.

For instance if they make some options in links, so I can link to the cheapest 1, 2, 3 etc hours for my specific area the next 2, 3, 4 etc. hours and that provides an output with just the times, then it can be pretty easy to search the file for a specific time, and if it exists the script turns on a switch at that time.

Does that make sense.?

I know this is not for the whole world yet so a global solution is ahead of time.
However I think Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Germany is a good start.
And maybe there are more countries with other good download options I don't know about yet.?

I have told you that this forum is not for your personal projects.


I am closing this thread.