MX Linux Forum

There seemed to be quite a few problems developing version 19 due to Debian going systemd and not exactly accomodating init freedom. One would see some users considering alternatives like Artix or Salix -excellent choices but rather different distros.
Another alternative might be the Russian ALT Linux. This was originally a Mandrake clone, now a modern rock stable distro developed by a large organization. Rpm based of course but uses APT/synaptic. Well localized. Main distro now systemd but as taken a different approach to init freedom, there are Starter kits running SysV and care has been taken to keep all important packages running with these two init systems. Network manager etc etc run no problem. So absolutely no issue running SysV at least.

are you aware of devuan?

No! Debian changed to systemd in 2015.

We have internal Alpha builds on Bullseye, we think it's going to work great, we (or at least I) never considered switching base.

coyotito wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:24 pm There seemed to be quite a few problems developing version 19 due to Debian going systemd and not exactly accomodating init freedom.

No, as I recall the main problem was that Debian used to support systemd-shim but dropped that support after Stretch, which MX-18 was based on. They stopped supporting a lot of packages that were no longer being maintained by the apps' devs. Or perhaps it wasn't compatible with Buster, I can't remember. Anyway, the MX devs forked systemd-shim's source and modified it to work in Buster (and also Bullseye.) Another minor problem was that (I think) Debian stopped requiring developers to include SysV init scripts in their .deb packages, so those packages without said scripts which need to talk to the init system have to be repackaged for MX with the SysV script included.

thinkpadx wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:21 pm are you aware of devuan?

Yes, of course, have used it and have beowulf on a machine I don't use much But that is less of an alternative and the problems more visible - more stuff missing. Great for server admins that cannot go with systemd, like Artix. (have not tried last/upcoming version)

figueroa wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:51 pm No! Debian changed to systemd in 2015.

Yes, as explained by JayM the shift in itself was not the problem.

JayM wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 12:15 am

coyotito wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:24 pm There seemed to be quite a few problems developing version 19 due to Debian going systemd and not exactly accomodating init freedom.

No, as I recall the main problem was that Debian used to support systemd-shim but dropped that support after Stretch, which MX-18 was based on. They stopped supporting a lot of packages that were no longer being maintained by the apps' devs. Or perhaps it wasn't compatible with Buster, I can't remember. Anyway, the MX devs forked systemd-shim's source and modified it to work in Buster (and also Bullseye.) Another minor problem was that (I think) Debian stopped requiring developers to include SysV init scripts in their .deb packages, so those packages without said scripts which need to talk to the init system have to be repackaged for MX with the SysV script included.

Great answers here. I did follow this a bit at the time. First version of 19 was a bit of a disappointment to me - mx18 was one of those releases that turned into the near perfect distro. Mx 18 is blisteringly fast on old machines - I use it still on an old 32 bit netbook, typing on that now. Issues were as much to do with the debian base as anything else. Used Artix for a while, also awesome but rolling is not for me as primary system. I don't know that much about the technical solutions ALT came up with, just interesting to see it solved so painlessly. Also the Russian software scene is interesting now that Russia has banned Windows in administration/public organizations and also companies/business.

I also have nostalgia for MX-18, but the world moves incessantly forward and to not move forward with it is to be left behind in an insecure, unsupported, and possibly unstable past. In my opinion, MX-19 has mainly seemed less polished because of upstream changes with XFCE have made it seem a little less polished. Changes to XFCE recently completed have made in seem better polished and MX will benefit from the continuous improvement. As a user, I see the stable base with updated software, XFCE on the desktop, and MX tools to be MX-Linux's core competencies. The idea of following the upstream Debian base too closely makes me cringe a little. If the past is a good model for the future, the Debian base always improves with age. Let the other guys suffer the bugs and usability issues. MX-Linux has done well on this in the past balancing most users' desire to have "shiny new things" and the need to keep a stable, reliable, supportable base. I plan to stick around.

JayM wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 12:15 am

coyotito wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:24 pm There seemed to be quite a few problems developing version 19 due to Debian going systemd and not exactly accomodating init freedom.

No, as I recall the main problem was that Debian used to support systemd-shim but dropped that support after Stretch, which MX-18 was based on. They stopped supporting a lot of packages that were no longer being maintained by the apps' devs. Or perhaps it wasn't compatible with Buster, I can't remember. Anyway, the MX devs forked systemd-shim's source and modified it to work in Buster (and also Bullseye.) Another minor problem was that (I think) Debian stopped requiring developers to include SysV init scripts in their .deb packages, so those packages without said scripts which need to talk to the init system have to be repackaged for MX with the SysV script included.

If the number of packages is greatly increased "...have to be repackaged for MX with the SysV script included..." isn't it better to change the base to Devuan to MX-Systemd-free ???

We don’t have to create “that many” init scripts as it is right now. No reason to rebase at this time IMO

SwampRabbit wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:44 pm We don’t have to create “that many” init scripts as it is right now. No reason to rebase at this time IMO

I would leave MX if we switch to something else than Debian... if people want Devuan I suggest they use Devuan, not for me.

@Adrian +1 to being a reason not to rebase then

For now everything is fine... But in the years to come everything will depend on Debian's support of Init freedom.
Mint has ubuntu and debian based version.
Will we have MX based on debian and devuan?
Only the future will answer this question...

Will we have MX based on debian and devuan?
Only the future will answer this question...

The answer was provided on 30 Apr 2021 23:51 by me, we are going to continue to be based on Debian, anybody who wants to use Devuan should go and use Devuan not MX.

Yup

We would surely just look to antiX first, before devuan?!

I highly doubt anticapitalista has ever depended on Debian being alternative init friendly, yet antiX has continued to be based on Debian, and also now has other init iso versions.

Systemd makes things difficult... complex...:

"After four years of using systemd, the Debian derivative Knoppix has removed the controversial Linux init system."

Knoppix creator Klaus Knopper wrote briefly about the decision to remove systemd in that edition (translated from German, links added for context):

"The still controversial startup systemd, which has been a little outrageous due to security vulnerabilities just recently, has been integrated in Debian since Jessie [8.0], and has been removed since Knoppix 8.5. I bypass hard dependencies on the boot system with my own packages.

To still get a systemd-like session management, and thus retain the ability to shut down and restart the system as a normal user, I run the session manager "elogind" instead. This bypasses systemd's interference with many system components and reduces the complexity of the overall system. If you want to start your own services at startup, you do not need to create any systemd units, but simply enter them in the text file /etc/rc.local, which contains explanatory examples."

Source: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/kn ... n-systemd/

Adrian wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:45 pm

SwampRabbit wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:44 pm We don’t have to create “that many” init scripts as it is right now. No reason to rebase at this time IMO

I would leave MX if we switch to something else than Debian... if people want Devuan I suggest they use Devuan, not for me.

I agree with you, @Adrian

I (and probably many, many other people) use MX as it is almost like Debian with more user-friendly software.

I (and probably many, many other people) would stop using MX if it was rebased to something other than Debian, but would continue using it regardless of whether it uses systemd or sysv.

LionelZaylan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:07 pm
I (and probably many, many other people) use MX as it is almost like Debian with more user-friendly software.

I (and probably many, many other people) would stop using MX if it was rebased to something other than Debian, but would continue using it regardless of whether it uses systemd or sysv.

I'd use whatever this crew puts out, regardless of its base. It just doesn't get any better than what these people do.

The world changes, time flies, and software occasionally changes its code base. I'll use whatever works and whatever is the best tool for the job. It doesn't matter what base is used for MX Linux as long as it has the bits that make it MX Linux.

Life's too short to be concerned about zealot-grade ideological rubbish like "init freedom" and "GNU/Linux" and what not. Just enjoy the ride while it lasts.

When we went from KDE to Xfce I whined and cried, because it was something new that I had to learn to deal with. But I stuck with it, because it was MX.

If they were to change base I'd still stick with them. There is no other out there with support like here, and I like it here.


Plus they have good coffee.

AK-47 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:09 am Life's too short to be concerned about zealot-grade ideological rubbish like "init freedom" and "GNU/Linux" and what not. Just enjoy the ride while it lasts.

I'm glad such people exist. It makes the (linux) world much more of an interesting place to be.

I have systemd and non-systemd distros on my computers, and I agree with anticapitalista.

I'm glad there is more than 1 init around. THe push to use only systemd in some quarters (the "don't fight it, all the big distros are already using it" people) didn't seem right to me.

But MX is more than the distro, since it's the community as well.

In any case, I don't see any cause for worry.

Eadwine Rose wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:19 am When we went from KDE to Xfce I whined and cried, because it was something new that I had to learn to deal with. But I stuck with it, because it was MX.

If they were to change base I'd still stick with them. There is no other out there with support like here, and I like it here.


Plus they have good coffee.

What does that mean? Is MX stopping support for KDE ???

That was years ago.

Oh, sorry, it was on the top of the thread section, I should have read the date.

Again you misread.

I posted this recently. The change happened long ago.

Eadwine means, when Mepis (KDE-based) was discontinued and MX was mooted as an antiX-based successor to Mepis but using XFCE as default DE, she was not happy.

This was around 2014.

ADDED: this forum used to the be Mepis community. It's older than the distro MX it now serves.

Hence the Joined dates on a lot of the members. We kept those. :)

Heck some people were not happy with KDE 4.x and Plasma and wanted the traditional KDE so they create Trinity, not sure how that went... didn't hear much about that lately.
To be honest I disliked the direction of KDE 4.x especially that they released a 4.0 with missing features and were "but this is a beta, it's not supposed to be used by distros" while distros were like "but it's called 4.0"

Adrian wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:31 pm Heck some people were not happy with KDE 4.x and Plasma and wanted the traditional KDE so they create Trinity, not sure how that went... didn't hear much about that lately.
To be honest I disliked the direction of KDE 4.x especially that they released a 4.0 with missing features and were "but this is a beta, it's not supposed to be used by distros" while distros were like "but it's called 4.0"

I stayed with Mepis 8.0 with KDE 3.5 for a long time. KDE 4 was rough early on. Even Warren had difficulty getting it smoothed out in M8.5. I didn't move to KDE 4.x until Warren released M11, which was the best distro I've ever used. MX-KDE is right on its heels, and may in actuality be a better distro all around, but M11 hit my sweet spot.

This reminds me of when Mepis went to an Ubuntu base for a quick minute.

malspa wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:55 pm This reminds me of when Mepis went to an Ubuntu base for a quick minute.

M6.0 and 6.5. Mepis 6.5 was the distro that finally made me give up on Windows (W2K at the time) and go with Linux full bore. I stayed with M6.5 until M8.0 was released.

malspa wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:55 pm This reminds me of when Mepis went to an Ubuntu base for a quick minute.

You know what? That was my introduction to Mepis - version 6.5 based on Ubuntu, and it was wonderful (Ubuntu was still nimble at that time).

It was the first Linux live CD to actually work on my then-Dell XP machine. Note that I had tried to boot actual Ubuntu, among others, and it never worked with my graphics card so I was left in tty. Mepis 6.5? pfft. No problem at all. And I got all the bells and whistles of Beryl-COmpiz even with my crappy graphics card.

I didn't really like Mepis 7 (Debian) for some reason and went back to 6.5 until 8 was released. But like uncle mark, I found Mepis 11 hit the sweet spot. I was really upset when Mepis 12 beta just didn't work on my machine and that was the period I got into XFCE via Manjaro and SolydX as I looked for alternatives.

When I came to linux , almost all the rough edges were smoothed out (that may be why I decided to stay with linux , specifically MX )

Happy to hear history from those who really experienced it and made it the way it is now.
(Sad that I was still in the dark grip of M$ when you all were enjoying linux)

Congrats to everyone who made MX Linux the great distro it is (especially to the developers) .