MX Linux Forum

So there is a discussion on the Xfce forum about the future of Xfce, that Xfce devs have decided is tied to CSDs and headerbars down the path. I see this as destruction of the traditional DE that Xfce always was. Pretty brutal design if you ask me (spend some time looking at these screenshots carefully):
https://linuxreviews.org/Xfce_4.16

Xfce 4.16 will use "client side decorations" (CSD) or "GtkHeaderBars" which, in practical terms, means that window titles and a close button are shown instead of the regular window manager title bar. All the configuration dialog boxes in 4.16 have these client side decorations thanks to a change in libxfce4ui which makes every application using that library show a GtkHeaderBar instead of regular window title bars.

Those who do the work, the devs, are free to do whatever they want. However, I and many more are saddened by the loss of traditional Xfce. Xfce 4.14 was already a regression in a way because of immature GTK3 toolkit (right click menus, notification area, color picker etc.). But Xfce devs kept Xfce 4.14 clean. It's good and it isn't really possible to wish for more regarding a GTK3 port.

Xfce 4.16 isn't a problem today, but if you use Linux and Xfce because you LIKE it, then there might be trouble on the horizon. Half the fun is looking forward to improvements. I don't use a single CSD application. Well, except for Chrome from time to time, but Chrome has an option for normal titlebar (no CSD as I understand it).

Question to MX Linux users:
Will you stay with Xfce or use something else (another DE or WM)?

This subject has been posted before on the MX forums. I am looking for a replacement when the Xfce developers break Xfce with this by creating another Gnome. First I looked into KDE and the developers there have no intention of creating a Whisker menu for KDE which rules out KDE as a replacement because none of their application menus can be resized and all three feel clunky to use. The closest replacement I found to Xfce is Mate with the Brisk menu but no one can answer if it can be resized like the Whisker menu.

I currently use gtk3-nocsd to get rid of CSD on the few gnomified apps (baobab, file-roller) we have packaged in MX. If that continues to work, or if Xfce 4.16 prvides some other way to turn off CSD, then I will stay with Xfce. Otherwise, I am prepared to leave - perhaps some wayland-based WM that doesn't do CSD (sway?) will be mature enough for my taste at that point. Or maybe I will try KDE again.

My issue is visually, I have a problem quickly identifying the window that has focus (assuming several on the screen at once) unless I can give it a unique brightly colored titlebar and border. Also, for security reasons, I don't want a client app to be able to spoof that it does or doesn't have focus by controlling the titlebar/border color itself.

Does not bother me in the least.

get used to gnome annexing any territory that that uses gtk. they dont care about anybody, theyre corporate sociopaths.

i would be absolutely thrilled if someone forked gtk. it was one of the best toolkits ever made.

but it gives gnome control of far too many projects, which it can then steamroll like its doing here. not for the first, time, not at all.

Well, when they turn Xfce into GNOME Jr., I guess I will just go back to Fluxbox.

GTK3 is heavily tied into GNOME, the developers do not care at all if it breaks any other DE or WM.

imschmeg wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:09 pm I currently use gtk3-nocsd to get rid of CSD on the few gnomified apps (baobab, file-roller) we have packaged in MX.

I forgot about file-roller, because I don't use it much. I have used Engrampa in MATE for a long time. It works well. I don't know what Linux Mint uses, but their X-apps were created to be traditional. Overall, I think Linux Mint is on the fence. They adopt a great deal of Gnomism, but still create their own thing.

richb wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:13 pm Does not bother me in the least.

You have two different "titlebars" with different shadows. Also ridiculous placement of Help and Close buttons.
If it doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother you. Nothing more to say about that.

I feel that if Linux wants to be taken seriously, better not go down the Gnome route.

jeffreyC wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:58 pmGTK3 is heavily tied into GNOME, the developers do not care at all if it breaks any other DE or WM.

software that isnt modular ultimately does this. we really should, next to the free software movement, have a movement that eschews as much software as possible that isnt modular. when developers try to force you to use things you dont want or need, its a bad sign. and dishonest ones deny it, but this isnt about developer freedom-- its about developers absolutely giving the finger to users. i wish gnome was the only example of this.

of course its all relative. modularity only goes so far before it gets cumbersome. gnome goes in the other direction-- but not without warning. it has done this sort of thing on smaller levels for 10 years. if users dont push back, this sort of abuse will go on forever. if gnome were the only example, if i couldnt think of several mainstream examples of this sort of thing-- it wouldnt take a movement.

"de-commoditising protocols" -- halloween documents, 1998