MX Linux Forum

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:15 am**

Hey all;
I just wanted to post that I just installed "popularity-contest" on my MX-18.3 machine. I also visited the Debian "Popcorn" website. I was surprised to see that MX was nowhere on the list. Which, I thought might be the case; sadly!

Now I didn't notice if there was an "option" in the MX installer, but, I didn't see it. Maybe it should be an option in the installer! I had to manually install from the package-manager. If it were to be an option during the installation, maybe more people would be aware of it and install it. Wouldn't it be sweet to know ( roughly )

how many people are using this distribution.
I have read on this site a post where someone was saying how popular MX was because it was ranked pretty high on Distro-watch; only to have one of the ( moderators?? ) explain that a high ranking on that site only really shows how "unpopular" it was, because the ranking was based on click-through's. Which the [ moderator??] assumed was because users of the site didn't know about MX; or, were just "checking it out!"
Now folks, I am a HUGE fan of MX! I think I have made that known in more ways than one since I have been coming to this site, and I think everyone should install the popularity-contest package and let the world know about MX. It could be the next " light weight champion of the World! "

Seriously, though. I do think that having MX REALLY counted in a statistic that means something positive is a great thing.
The popularity-contest package can be installed by going to MX Package Installer->search bar-> type in "popularity-contest"->click on the "stable repo" tab-> and check the appropriate package. That's it! From then on ( I think, once-a-week ) your Distribution and package use will be sent to Debian maintainers and can be checked @ http://www.popcorn.debian.org. So, c'mon everybody; get those machines registered! It is safe ( NOT a backdoor! ), and it shows strong support for MX-Linux!

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:55 am**

You posted an incorrect (dead) link. The correct link is https://popcon.debian.org.

It is also incorrectly spelled in the second sentence - popcon is derived from POPularity CONtest.

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:03 pm**

BunsenLabs is in the distribution list and I think we had to liaise with the Debian developers to get it added. Can't remember the details though.

If Stevo asks johnraff over at the BL forums then he will probably be able to supply the required information.

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:56 pm**

Head_on_a_Stick wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:03 pm BunsenLabs is in the distribution list and I think we had to liaise with the Debian developers to get it added. Can't remember the details though.

Some guidelines for debian derivatives concerning Popcon are to be found here:
https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Gui ... ty_Contest

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:20 pm**

Head_on_a_Stick wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:03 pm BunsenLabs is in the distribution list and I think we had to liaise with the Debian developers to get it added. Can't remember the details though.

If Stevo asks johnraff over at the BL forums then he will probably be able to supply the required information.

Maybe better if the project head asks, instead of just a packager.

Besides, I will no doubt shortly be deep underground and out of touch in my coronavirus-Yellowstone ash cloud-zombpocalypse-AI singularity proof bunker.

On the plus side, if the only survivors are using MX, our popularity goes through the roof!

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:12 pm**

> https://popcon.debian.org/

Based upon the last graph on the page (Submissions by distributions (last 12 months), Popcon is either highly flawed or just out right gamed by the distro dev’s. Ubuntu, at 6th place, hovers in the 15-20 range all year, while the niche Devuan is basically double that?

Ignoring the problematic nature of any of these “phone home” program’s statistics reliability, my personal opinion is any use of telemetry data is evil. Capital “E” evil. Sure a user can do a one time check that the data you’re originally asking for contains some sort of legitimacy, but the actual telemetry data sent is subject to any change the package maintainer wants upon any update. My opinion, it is capital “E” evil to ask a user to A) remember what is sending telemetry data and B) force them to do a code review every time the package changes, especially when C) most users are incapable of doing a code review in the first place.

In closing, please don’t add any telemetry data “opt-in” to MX. *

Best Regards,
Michael

* ‘Cause is it really opt-in?
https://www.techradar.com/news/two-thir ... n-their-pc
“...some folks are pretty click-happy during a software installation, and tend to leave things on the default settings. ... Canonical describes the ‘opt-in rate’ being 67% in its blog post analyzing the initial data collected, despite the fact that this is not an opt-in process.”

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:25 pm**

The package popularity-contest is spyware which is why many Ubuntu based distros rip it out and through it in the garbage where it belongs.

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:32 pm**

Forgive me stating my own point of view, but really most of the newbies coming over from Windows seem to think Linux has to be made popular to be successful. They don't seem to realise that we don't really want our distros winning popularity contests just so long as they work to our satisfaction. The Window heads forget that Linux isn't about commercial success like Microsoft, it's made for it's users, that's all.

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:58 pm**

turtlebay777 wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:32 pm Forgive me stating my own point of view, but really most of the newbies coming over from Windows seem to think Linux has to be made popular to be successful. They don't seem to realise that we don't really want our distros winning popularity contests just so long as they work to our satisfaction.

it isnt quite that simple. we certainly dont want to turn the stuff that we like because its different into a halfway clone of windows just to get "more users to switch." thats what newbies often get wrong, and i agree with you on that.

nor do i run popcon. i file that under "none of your business, debian." even so, i get that (unfortunately) debian makes excuses to axe things that "dont have users." so this isnt just about winning a popularity contest. its about keeping things that debian might get rid of otherwise, which we then have to either package ourselves or simply not have anymore. like leafpad, for example-- they got rid of it recently. im very sad about it.

sure, i can compile it myself-- in theory at least. but before i could tell people just to sudo apt-get install leafpad. popcon (again, unfortunately) does inform debian maintainers and packagers about what to keep. that alas, has nothing to do with newbies who think we are trying to clone windows.

to some extent, and only are the effects are devastating, popcon is a bit like a hostage situation for packages. "turn the service on, or the package gets it!" i suppose this is one aspect of debian where it would be nice if we didnt need their services at all. because we would call the shots there.

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:02 pm**

Sorry about the link. I won't make excuses; however, I am old, half blind, hard of hearing, and, my feet don't match! I can't dance and I can't type ( very well).
So, there you have it. (;>)
I am not "click-happy" as some might think. I volunteered to send info to Debian because I believe that they do not use the information the way Microsoft and Apple do. And if I am wrong: show me the facts! I do have confidence that they will protect that information to the best of their ability. The same way that I believe that MX ( as a product of GNU-Linux, as is Debian ) protects my privacy by being a secure and safe Operating System.
And I believe that by using the "popularity-contest" package I am trying to "actively" support MX.
That's it.

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:44 pm**

Michael-IDA wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:12 pm is it really opt-in?

Yes, it is. And the default option is "no":

Mauser wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:25 pm The package popularity-contest is spyware

No, it isn't. Spyware, by definition, conceals it's presence and intention from the user but popcon clearly announces it's presence and intention and also offers a means to disable it afterwards, if the user doesn't want it any more (as can be seen in my screenshot).

Furthermore, the statistics are collected anonymously with the only identification being a randomly-generated machine ID.

More here: https://popcon.debian.org/README

And here: https://popcon.debian.org/FAQ

freemedia2018 wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:58 pm popcon is a bit like a hostage situation for packages. "turn the service on, or the package gets it!"

So you agree that it would be good if MX offered users the option to enable popcon then?

The sysvinit-core package currently languishes at a mere 1.11% of installations[1], MX's inclusion would change that significantly.

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:06 pm**

Per Debian's stated benefits:

Niche packages, which might not be very popular in stock Debian, could be more actively used in a specialised derivative distribution. Having adequate popcon statistics in Debian would guarantee that the package would not be removed from stock Debian, thus offloading maintenance burden on the interested derivative

This does highly benefit MX and anitX users in the fact that sysVinit and the shim would get some attention. That's if you take their "guarantee" as something to take to the bank.

I've never opted-in on my plain jane Debian installs myself, but one has to wonder if doing so would help keep some of the niche packages alive, or put some emphasis on package maintainers putting in more time an effort to certain ones.

Right now I'm packaging (Stevo is going to help with the stubborn ones) a bunch of dependency packages for a certain package because Debian package maintainers aren't building them upstream.
Lately, we've had a lot of users asking for packages that don't exist in Debian or derivatives. Just saying this because it takes a bit more starting from scratch.

Did you know that some Debian package maintainers go request funding upstream to sponsor and maintain packages? (yeah shocked me too) We're down here doing it for free, we can use some attention upstream imho.

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:49 pm**

Well, the Pale Moon devs have had some of their donations specify that part of the funds go to third-party packagers such as myself, but I've asked them to make the donations to MX instead.

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:35 pm**

Head_on_a_Stick wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:44 pmSo you agree that it would be good if MX offered users the option to enable popcon then?

as an option? it would be difficult to argue with that. but i dont think it should "offer" unless people know what it is. theres a sane way to do it, probably a few.

i never felt passionately about popcon, as it was not enabled by default. nor should it be, but as an option? why not?

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:41 pm**

SwampRabbit wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:06 pm Did you know that some Debian package maintainers go request funding upstream to sponsor and maintain packages?

What's upstream of Debian? I thought Debian was its own stand-alone distro, not a "based on" derivation of something else. Or do you mean they request funding from the likes of the GTK, Xfce, Gnome and KDE projects, stuff like that?

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:31 pm**

JayM wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:41 pm
SwampRabbit wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:06 pm Did you know that some Debian package maintainers go request funding upstream to sponsor and maintain packages?
What's upstream of Debian? I thought Debian was its own stand-alone distro, not a "based on" derivation of something else. Or do you mean they request funding from the likes of the GTK, Xfce, Gnome and KDE projects, stuff like that?

Sorry, that was bad wording on my part. I don't know where or at what level specific funding is coming from.

What I was trying to get at is that there are folks at levels above us who do a lot of good work to make sure popular or much used packages get built.
Resources get allocated for it; people, time, and funding. Me, personally, while I knew a lot of things like kernel and major application development gets funded... didn't know normal packaging did.
Someone stated to me the other day that they "got funding to continue packaging something". I wasn't sure if they meant they wouldn't help if they didn't get funding or what, I can't speak to that.

But it sorta shocked me because, like Stevo was getting at, we're down here working on MX for users as a labor of love more than anything.

The whole popcon discussion made me think, "well if folks up at higher levels knew there was a greater need for certain things, maybe its a good thing because they'd request resources so they could do the last part of that benefit statement I posted":
offloading maintenance burden on the interested derivative

I get some people make a living off of doing FOSS work, which is good, and is how it should work. I'm just saying that maybe things like popcon help make that happen, because without showing a definitive need, it won't happen.

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:11 pm**

@SwampRabbit: thanks for the clarification.

@everyone: I've installed it and opted in to Debian's survey. I normally wouldn't do something like that but I think I can trust Debian not to harvest my personal or other data beyond what they say Popularity Contest does.

If it becomes preinstalled in future versions of MX I strongly suggest that the user be prompted whether or not to opt in at their first login, including when booting from a live USB, and that something be added to MX Tweak that when selected runs dpkg-reconfigure-popularity-contest (as root or sudo) to let them opt out (or in) should they change their mind later. The MX Manual and FAQ would need to be updated to explain what the popularity contest package is and does, and assure users that it's not spying on them, and point them to MX Tweak. Maybe d_o could make a quick video that explains it too?

Then we'd of course have to prepare ourselves for the deluge of forum posts about it by people who didn't Read The Fantastic Manual or the FAQ or search the forum prior to posting (as usual), as well as rants by unreasonable people and/or paranoiacs complaining either that, basically, something they personally dislike shouldn't have been included in the distro because the universe is of course all about them, or that MX is evil incarnate because it contains "spyware" and is going to steal their credit card number, wreck their car and kill their dog. (Such is life.)

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:22 pm**

MX Linux would be better off without that spyware.

Posted: **Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:20 am**

^ it's not spyware...

JayM wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:11 pm I think I can trust Debian not to harvest my personal or other data beyond what they say Popularity Contest does.

No need to trust them, the source is freely available and comprises of perl, python & shell scripts. There are no binary executables in the package.

To get the source and analyze it yourself add a deb-src line to your sources then run

Code: Select all

apt source popularity-contest

The actual work is done by a cron job: https://gist.github.com/Head-on-a-Stick ... a6b7d2292e

As you can see, it just sends the output of /usr/sbin/popularity-contest (run as the nobody user) to Debian.

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