MX Linux Forum • Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:14 pm

by manyroads

Because of the systemd-sysVinit energy here, I'm creating a thread where folks can share ideas on:

--- how-to clean systemd off *buntu, arch & other distros and/or
--- where to look for refuge from the 1 million lines of systemd baggage... :lipsrsealed:

By way of kicking things off and in honor of @rasat's fine work to remove systemd, I offer the following (links). I don't know how good these guides are, but they may offer some help.

http://dquinton.github.io/debian-instal ... stemd.html
https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-replace- ... bian-linux
https://appuals.com/remove-systemd-ubuntu-permanently/
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/OpenRC

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:31 pm

by dreamer

I let the pros remove systemd.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:45 pm

by manyroads

dreamer wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:31 pm I let the pros remove systemd.

If I may recommend... then stick with MX & or antiX. No matter what happens on MX, I'm pretty certain @anticapitalista and his team on antiX will keep antiX systemd free.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:04 am

by GuiGuy

manyroads wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:45 pm........... I'm pretty certain @anticapitalista and his team on antiX will keep antiX systemd free.

I hope you are right, but the big problem for both AntiX and Devuan is the absence of systemd-shim in Buster: how can they solve it?
Or am I misunderstanding the problem?

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:19 am

by asqwerth

viewtopic.php?f=94&t=50117&p=500953&hilit=shim#p500953

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:33 am

by GuiGuy

I'm still confused.
Must MX (and Devuan?) stop using the Debian repos to keep using sysvinit?

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:02 am

by asqwerth

No.

Based on my non-tech layman's understanding, antiX just uses some clever means to filter out all systemd-related packages in Debian repos from being installed or pulled into antiX, so that the non-systemd analogues/replacements from antiX's nosystemd repo gets installed instead.

This is what antiX is already doing. It's already free of systemd packages.

MX up to version 18 is different because it was using Debian repos as is, without the antiX nosystemd repo. So MX contains systemd packages within, even though it boots into sysV by default. Up to Debian Stretch, the systemd-shim package in Debian's repo was maintained and allowed users of MX (and Debian users if they knew what to do, I guess) to choose to boot into either systemd or sysV normally while just running Debian repos. It was this freedom of choice of init that MX tried to keep.

That co-existence won't be possible anymore in Buster, because the shim package is no longer maintained. If you go full Debian, you will be on systemd. Having the sysV packages will now conflict with systemd packages.

If you want sysV, you have to do what antiX does and filter out the systemd stuff from Debian repos. Meaning your installation of a sysV-only system cannot be booted into systemd at all.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:22 am

by GuiGuy

Thanks, asquerth: I see it more clearly now.
I hope that AntiX buster manages to solve its problems.
My other wish is that MX will forget about the 9% of users who want systemd (they could use straight debian instead) and just make MX sysviinit only.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:31 am

by rasat

GuiGuy wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:04 am I hope you are right, but the big problem for both AntiX and Devuan is the absence of systemd-shim in Buster: how can they solve it?

AntiX 19 is solving the absence of systemd-shim for lightweight DE and WM. @manyroads has created one prototype for Xfce.
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=50543

What's also needed, MX 19 prototype which runs all DE including KDE and Gnome. Devuan does the job but beowulf packages will be slightly behind buster. Also it may not provide all packages. Most users will not mind running systemd in next MX major release (19). But when knowing the advantages of SysVinit speed and instant apps respond, its worthy to have an systemd-free alternative.

I am still curious to know what does it take to get AntiX to run all DE. Sounds better, as well as more acceptable by many MX users to have "MX powered by AntiX" than "Devuan". There is MX forum and community support. @manyroad can you get Gnome to run in your prototype?

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:35 am

by manyroads

GuiGuy wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:22 am Thanks, asquerth: I see it more clearly now.
I hope that AntiX buster manages to solve its problems.
My other wish is that MX will forget about the 9% of users who want systemd (they could use straight debian instead) and just make MX sysviinit only.

I will upload an xfce antiX19 alpha snapshot, later this week. It uses Buster; you'll see it works quite well. In the end (my layman's opinion) I think you can always use a flatpak of an app that might not be available in the antiX repos (or use a snap or appimage). I know that eats disk, but it keeps the 1 million line of code systemd corralled.

At lest that's how I understand things.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:38 am

by manyroads

rasat wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:31 am
I am still curious to know what does it take to get AntiX to run all DE. Sounds better, as well as more acceptable by many MX users to have "MX powered by AntiX" than "Devuan". There is MX forum and community support. @manyroad can you get Gnome to run in your prototype?

@rasat... Sure, I'll set up a separate snapshot of antiX19 alpha (with Buster) for Gnome. You should see it before Friday.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:00 pm

by asqwerth

manyroads wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:35 am
I will upload an xfce antiX19 alpha snapshot, later this week. It uses Buster; you'll see it works quite well. In the end (my layman's opinion) I think you can always use a flatpak of an app that might not be available in the antiX repos (or use a snap or appimage). I know that eats disk, but it keeps the 1 million line of code systemd corralled.

At lest that's how I understand things.

snap requires systemd.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:18 pm

by Head_on_a_Stick

asqwerth wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:02 am That co-existence won't be possible anymore in Buster, because the shim package is no longer maintained.

The shim has been un-maintained for the entire lifetime of the Debian stretch release (with outstanding bugs) but it has been removed completely in Debian buster.

asqwerth wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:02 am If you go full Debian, you will be on systemd.

^ This is not true.

The Debian init metapackage now has three possible dependencies: systemd, sysvinit & runit-init, buster can be run with any of those packages serving as PID1.

https://packages.debian.org/buster/init

And Debian now has a dedicated init diversity mailing list that is devoted to keeping the non-systemd options viable:

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/mailm ... -diversity

rasat wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:31 am Devuan does the job but beowulf packages will be slightly behind buster.

^ This is not true.

Devuan beowulf draws all of the packages from Debian buster via their so-called merged repositories, the versions are identical.

The release of their stable version of beowulf may be delayed compared to Debian buster though.

@OP: if you want XFCE without systemd then install either Devuan (which has XFCE as the default desktop) or antiX with the task-xfce-desktop package and then add the MX tools afterwards.

I'm pretty sure the MX tools won't have systemd as a dependency.

And if the massive codebase of systemd is a problem for you then why are you OK running the Linux kernel? That's *much* bigger...

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:28 pm

by BitJam

GuiGuy wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:22 am My other wish is that MX will forget about the 9% of users who want systemd (they could use straight debian instead) and just make MX sysviinit only.

Being forced to alienate a group of users is not to be taken lightly nor would it be easy to forget. What kind of person would force us to make such a choice?

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:31 pm

by asqwerth

Thanks for the clarification and the precision, HOAS.

This is however from the view point of an ordinary non-tinkerer MX user or someone who just installs Debian and simply uses it out of the box.

I'm not a technical person, and I am aware (you have mentioned it in a previous post) that knowledgeable people can decide which init they want to run on Debian.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:38 pm

by rasat

asqwerth wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:00 pm snap requires systemd.

MX Snapshot doesn't. Both MX ascii and bewulf respin were made by snap.

@Head_on_a_Stick, thanks for the info about beowulf draws from Debian buster merged repositories.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:38 pm

by dolphin_oracle

these sorts of threads always crack me up.

but seriously, the problem isn't really systemd vs. sysVinit.

the problem is libpam-systemd vs. ???? well that's the problem. there are a lot of debian applications that depend on libpam-systemd. there is a "compat" package called libpam-elogind-compat that forces a symlink but I'm told by debian maintainers that libpam-systemd != libpam-elogind, so that package (a devuan one I believe) remains in experimental.

can you build a debian buster based system without systemd. yes, absolutely. can you build anything you want with just the debian repositories? the answer to that is no.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:42 pm

by asqwerth

rasat wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:38 pm
asqwerth wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:00 pm snap requires systemd.
MX Snapshot doesn't. Both MX ascii and bewulf respin were made by snap.

I believe manyroads was referring to snaps the portable/sandboxed file format.

He mentioned appimage and flatpak in the same line.

This is not about MX Snapshot.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:46 pm

by manyroads

asqwerth wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:42 pm
rasat wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:38 pm
asqwerth wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:00 pm snap requires systemd.
MX Snapshot doesn't. Both MX ascii and bewulf respin were made by snap.
I believe manyroads was referring to snaps the portable/sandboxed file format.

He mentioned appimage and flatpak in the same line.

This is not about MX Snapshot.

Yes, sir. I was talking about the 'universal' app delivery tool from Canonical...

To quote from that center of all human knowledge (Wikipedia):

Snappy is a software deployment and package management system developed by Canonical for the Linux operating system. The packages, called snaps, and the tool for using them, snapd, work across a range of Linux distributions allowing distro-agnostic upstream software packaging. Snappy was originally designed for Ubuntu Touch. The system is designed to work for internet of things, cloud and desktop computing.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Snappy_(package_manager)

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:51 pm

by manyroads

dolphin_oracle wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:38 pm these sorts of threads always crack me up.

but seriously, the problem isn't really systemd vs. sysVinit.

the problem is libpam-systemd vs. ???? well that's the problem. there are a lot of debian applications that depend on libpam-systemd. there is a "compat" package called libpam-elogind-compat that forces a symlink but I'm told by debian maintainers that libpam-systemd != libpam-elogind, so that package (a devuan one I believe) remains in experimental.

can you build a debian buster based system without systemd. yes, absolutely. can you build anything you want with just the debian repositories? the answer to that is no.

Humor not withstanding; hopefully you can see, in this thread, there is a lot of fear, concern, mis-understanding, confusion, even 'grief'.

To my mind these are issues worth time, consideration, and discussion. This type of discussion tends to build a more informed and committed community.

But that just an old guy's opinion...

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:21 pm

by BitJam

manyroads wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:51 pmHumor not withstanding; hopefully you can see, in this thread, there is a lot of fear, concern, mis-understanding, confusion, even 'grief'.

To my mind these are issues worth time, consideration, and discussion. This type of discussion tends to build a more informed and committed community.

The devs here are very user-centric. They try to do what is best for the most number of people/users. That, of course, includes letting people know when there is a major change of course. Since we have not heard that yet, they must still be trying to avoid having to make Sophie's Choice.

Therefore, it's possible that threads like this will cause more fear, concern, mis-understanding, confusion, and even grief than is necessary. I'm not a big fan of telling people to sit back and trust authority figures. But neither am I a fan of needlessly worrying about something in the future that may not come to pass. I'm not saying this thread is a bad idea, I'm saying there is a limit to how much information is available now.

A coward dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once.

-- William Shakespeare (The Tragedy of Julius Caesar)

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:39 pm

by manyroads

@BitJam I do not disagree. I would add the notion that centralizing the systemd discussion, concerns, and getting answers from knowledgeable people like @Dolphin_Oracle, @Head_on_a_Stick, @rasat, yourself and others is useful. It helps ensure that folks can ask their questions and get the best answers available (to the best of each respondent's ability/ knowledge). The messages (questions & answers) can be shared simply & directly. Having said that, if this thread becomes a "pity-party" or an exercise in whining, I will be first to request that the Moderators shut it down.

Like you, I believe there is no real cause for worry. There are many options; choosing the best is a challenge, always. We have an excellent & skilled team on the job (on both antiX & MX). And in the end, whatever choice is made, or direction is taken, does little more than move us to the next set of challenges.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:56 pm

by asqwerth

I'm just confused why people keep thinking MX has to move to Devuan repos in order to remain systemd-free or to run sysV as init, when antiX is essentially what MX is based on.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:08 pm

by BitJam

manyroads wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:39 pm I would add the notion that centralizing the systemd discussion, concerns, and getting answers from knowledgeable people like @Dolphin_Oracle, @Head_on_a_Stick, @rasat, yourself and others is useful. It helps ensure that folks can ask their questions and get the best answers available (to the best of each respondent's ability/ knowledge).

+1

OTOH, IMO (this is not an official statement, I'm not speaking for the dev team) the answer to the crucial questions is: we don't know for sure but we're doing our best and we plan to do what it is best for the most people.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:14 pm

by dolphin_oracle

there is an effort to retool the systemd-shim. but I don't know how real it is. I'm not knocking the effort, I just don't know enough about the problem with the systemd-shim setup to evaluate.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:24 pm

by manyroads

asqwerth wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:56 pm I'm just confused why people keep thinking MX has to move to Devuan repos in order to remain systemd-free or to run sysV as init, when antiX is essentially what MX is based on.

I don't believe ppeople think that Devuan is the only way to do things, or even necessarily the best way. I think @rasat is simply testing the waters to demonstrate whether, or not, Devuan is viable and can play nice with MX 'tools'. But, that's just my guess.

@rasat has asked me if it were possible to run the Gnome DE on antiX (he's a Gnome guy, I think.) I told him I'd give it a whirl; I'll set up a quick snapshot that will have both KDE & Gnome on the same antiX19 base. Sadly, I won't be able to do much with the DEs; I'm unfamiliar with both. It's pretty safe to say that a basic -vanilla version of each ought to work. He can carry-on from there.

My interest is actually with xfce & openbox. I'll release them together on a single antiX19 snapshot as soon as I get them operational (this week). My thinking is that no matter what happens in the MX side of the house, there will be a population of people interested in axfce & openbox on antiX. Although, I'm okay if I'm the only one.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:33 pm

by anticapitalista

manyroads wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:24 pm
@rasat has asked me if it were possible to run the Gnome DE on antiX (he's a Gnome guy, I think.) I told him I'd give it a whirl; I'll set up a quick snapshot that will have both KDE & Gnome on the same antiX19 base.

Once we get to the next alpha/beta, the answer is yes.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:41 pm

by manyroads

anticapitalista wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:33 pm
manyroads wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:24 pm
@rasat has asked me if it were possible to run the Gnome DE on antiX (he's a Gnome guy, I think.) I told him I'd give it a whirl; I'll set up a quick snapshot that will have both KDE & Gnome on the same antiX19 base.
Once we get to the next alpha/beta, the answer is yes.

Great then I'll hold off for a bit... I just found a disturbing article that says effect 3.8 Gnome will require systemd. Personally I don't use it (systemd or Gnome). But it seems a bad requirement. Torvalds agrees.

This is all over my head...

see: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Systemd/In ... om_scratch

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:43 pm

by Head_on_a_Stick

manyroads wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:24 pm @rasat has asked me if it were possible to run the Gnome DE

OpenBSD can run GNOME, no systemd there (and there never will be).

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:54 pm

by manyroads

Head_on_a_Stick wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:43 pm
manyroads wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:24 pm @rasat has asked me if it were possible to run the Gnome DE
OpenBSD can run GNOME, no systemd there (and there never will be).

The requirement for it in v 3.8 seems bizarre. However, I'll wait for the release @anticapitalista mentioned. I can click a button to do an install. :lipsrsealed: The Gentoo description seems daunting, confusing... It's tough getting old.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:57 pm

by Head_on_a_Stick

manyroads wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:54 pm The requirement for it in v 3.8 seems bizarre.

GNOME is currently on v3.32

That Gentoo wiki page is incorrect, at least in respect of OpenBSD & GNOME.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:00 pm

by BitJam

manyroads wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:41 pmI just found a disturbing article that says effect 3.8 Gnome will require systemd. Personally I don't use it (systemd or Gnome). But it seems a bad requirement. Torvalds agrees.

This is all over my head... see: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Systemd/In ... om_scratch

There is a race between people who seem to be trying break things in order to lock you into systemd and other people who are working to fiix things and give you a choice. When that article was written the forces of darkness were ahead but now the good guys are catching up.

manyroads wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:54 pm [It's tough getting old.

But it's better than the alternative!

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:06 pm

by timkb4cq

Gnome requires services that the logind part of systemd provides.
elogind is a fork of logind that provides those services without requiring systemd installation.
Gnome is currently installable with elogind. Whether or not that changes is up to the Gnome devs.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:12 pm

by manyroads

timkb4cq wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:06 pm Gnome requires services that the the logind part of systemd provides.
elogind is a fork of logind that provides those services without requiring systemd installation.
Gnome is currently installable with elogind. Whether or not that changes is up to the Gnome devs.

Sounds like the guys who specialize in reverse-engineering software have a fair amount to keep themselves entertained.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:18 pm

by Head_on_a_Stick

BitJam wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:00 pm There is a race between people who seem to be trying break things in order to lock you into systemd and other people who are working to fiix things and give you a choice.

Don't you think that's a bit melodramatic?

The GNOME developers are trying to improve their desktop and systemd is now the de facto init system for GNU/Linux so it makes sense that they would avail themselves of it's impressive raft of functionality.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:20 pm

by BitJam

Head_on_a_Stick wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:18 pm
BitJam wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:00 pm There is a race between people who seem to be trying break things in order to lock you into systemd and other people who are working to fiix things and give you a choice.
Don't you think that's a bit melodramatic?

The GNOME developers are trying to improve their desktop and systemd is now the de facto init system for GNU/Linux so it makes sense that they would avail themselves of it's impressive raft of functionality.

I don't think it's melodramatic. It's how I view the situation. YMMVG. IMO this attempt to force people to use systemd and make it very difficult not to is very similar to Microsoft's attempts to force people to use Windows and make it very difficult not to.

It usually turns out that the "impressive raft of functionality" of systemd used by Gnome and others was already available using standard tools. The rush to make systemd the "de facto init system" also felt malevolent in the same way Microsoft has tried to break things by pushing incompatible standards. If you look at the top page-hit distros on distrowatch then you will see there is a lot of resistance to accepting systemd as the defacto standard despite all the obstacles that are thrown in the path of people who want choice.

I'm reminded of the parable of the North Wind and the Sun. People and actions that seem to intentionally cause me a lot of extra unnecessary work unless I bow to their will are considered *bad* in my book. I can cite specific examples for both Microsoft and systemd but that hardly seems necessary.

My gripes about systemd and Microsoft can be summarized as does not play well with others. In my view of the world, humans dominated other species because language gave us a better ability to cooperate (and gang up). Societies and civilizations are based on trust and cooperation. In my view by not playing well with others both Microsoft and systemd are selfishly bettering their own position at the expense of society as a whole. This is almost the exact opposite of the philosophy of the FOSS community that I adhere to.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:56 pm

by richb

What is/was the motive of systemd developers. I do not mean the technical or philosophical motive, but the more nefarious motive that seems to be a popular narrative. I simply ask as I do not know and not as argumentative.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:55 pm

by GuiGuy

richb wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:56 pm What is/was the motive of systemd developers. I do not mean the technical or philosophical motive, but the more nefarious motive that seems to be a popular narrative. I simply ask as I do not know and not as argumentative.

They are trying to make Linux their own private monopoly, just like Google with Android.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:23 pm

by richb

GuiGuy wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:55 pm
richb wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:56 pm What is/was the motive of systemd developers. I do not mean the technical or philosophical motive, but the more nefarious motive that seems to be a popular narrative. I simply ask as I do not know and not as argumentative.
They are trying to make Linux their own private monopoly, just like Google with Android.

Google and get mostly opinion. To what end are they trying to make Linux their own private monopoly?

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:44 pm

by GuiGuy

Android is a closed system, totally under the control of Google, and a contributor to their billions both directly and indirectly.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:47 pm

by richb

GuiGuy wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:44 pm Android is a closed system, totally under the control of Google, and a contributor to their billions both directly and indirectly.

I do not get what that has to do with systemd.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:53 pm

by GuiGuy

richb wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:47 pm I do not get what that has to do with systemd.

Nothing really, just an analogy (maybe not a good one).

Edit: Sorry I've taken the thread off topic. Rich, please delete my offending post and your replies.

Edit2: In fact I would be happy to see all posts from #38 to #45 deleted.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:59 pm

by manyroads

Don't hijack the thread kids....

Create a rage against Google Thread if you want one.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:04 pm

by richb

manyroads wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:59 pm Don't hijack the thread kids.... Create a rage against Google Thread if you want one.

In defense of GuiGuy, not a hijack. He was using it is an analogy. And I will not rage against systemd as I am agnostic about it. Should I stsrt an agnostic about systemd thread? It would not be very interesting.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:09 pm

by manyroads

Agnostic threads, can't say I care one way or the other....

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:38 pm

by dreamer

GuiGuy wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:55 pm
richb wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:56 pm What is/was the motive of systemd developers. I do not mean the technical or philosophical motive, but the more nefarious motive that seems to be a popular narrative. I simply ask as I do not know and not as argumentative.
They are trying to make Gnu/Linux their own private monopoly, just like Google with Android.

Yes and since systemd is more of a system layer than an init they have incredible power to affect the whole system. Do you want to be in the hands of Microsof... sorry systemd developers? A few developers hijacked Linux (with the help of corporate backing). Hijacked not in an absolute sense, but in a practical sense.

Systemd is beyond the scope of small players, it just descends on them from above. Now more than 1,2 million LOC. The kernel might be bigger but is more manageable and occupies a clearly defined space.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... .2-Million

richb wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:23 pm Google and get mostly opinion. To what end are they trying to make Linux their own private monopoly?

We don't know what their motive is. I personally like to point to "Linux 10" as the end goal, but that's just my personal take. Basically systemd, Wayland, Gnome, GTK3/4/5, only CSD support on Wayland, elimination of systray etc. GTK/Gnome developers don't shy away from telling us what the future should look like. Linux 10 will be the Linux equivalent of Windows 10. A fast-moving platform mainly for enterprise use and application developers have to constantly update their apps to keep pace with the platform. Windows 10 will likely be better in this regard now that Win32 has been elevated to "first class citizen" again.

I think there will be a split at some point where non-corporate distros have to work together to avoid getting sucked into "Linux 10". Linux Mint is in an interesting position. They have adopted systemd and GTK3 meaning Cinnamon follows GTK3 development, but apart from that Mint is pretty traditional. Will further updates to GTK allow for a traditional desktop environment? If GTK4 needs to be forked Linux Mint might be the ones that have to do it. I read that GTK devs have big plans for the GTK4 cycle (a ton of changes), but that can be FUD of course. In my dreams I wish someone forks GTK2. Trinity still uses Qt3 so it's not impossible. I'm thinking that most security holes in GTK2 should have been found by now, but I have no idea.

I'd say the motivation is control. If you want to enjoy applications running on Linux you have to adopt at least systemd and GTK for a good out of the box experience (unless distro devs work in the opposite direction). It will be harder for the Linux 10 pushers to push Wayland and Gnome, but they are trying, just look at Debian.

Who doesn't want to control a platform with great potential such as Linux?
"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".
Systemd is just too dangerous in my opinion; turning Linux into an open source version of Windows, but with the same complexity.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:08 pm

by richb

Clearly this is an aptly named topic.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:07 am

by timkb4cq

GuiGuy wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:55 pmThey are trying to make Linux their own private monopoly, just like Google with Android.

To be fair, I don't think that was the basis for systemd nor the continuing impetus for the systemd devs.
Poettering looked at Apple's launchd and thought "Hey, wouldn't it be better if processes in Linux could be centrally tracked and managed as well as Apple does it?" And he, with some help, wrote it. That's the open source way. Build a better mousetrap, or reinvent the wheel.
Upstart wasn't working quite as well as sysvinit. Few distros were using runit or openrc, and sysvinit lost its maintainer. Distros were rolling their own sysvinit patches when necessary.
So the door was open. Systemd works well enough (if you just do the expected things), is actively developed, and gives you cool new tools to manage processes. Of course distros used it. Of course those who loved the new tools wrote software depending on them.

That doesn't mean the implementation of systemd is great - it's definitely flawed. If it did all the things it does now but had actually stayed modular so you could use just the pieces you wanted we wouldn't be having this discussion.
But it is new & useful so (Oooh, shiny!) it caught on.

That's the way change happens in complex systems. After watching various communities & groups change over the years, it's almost never a conspiracy or evil plan that changes things.

I'd rather not have systemd in PID1. It doesn't follow the Unix philosophy. But I was an adult before there were home computers. To most coders these days that's ancient history that no longer applies. They're following the new stuff.

I don't believe either systemd or its developers are evil or are trying to take over even if other developers are making it harder to avoid. They're just using the tools in libraries that they already have in their machines. One should expect that they would.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:14 am

by rasat

timkb4cq wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:07 am That doesn't mean the implementation of systemd is great - it's definitely flawed. If it did all the things it does now but had actually stayed modular so you could use just the pieces you wanted we wouldn't be having this discussion.

True.... also at end of day, what users have to deal with everyday, speed and respond of a system. Main reasons why they go for faster hardware each time. As a counter step, able to use older hardware, lightweight DE and WM became popular, such as Xfce. Not the intention of systemd, by taking over init, the speed and respond was put down again. Hardware manufactures loves systemd. :)

How does it sound: "Don't go hardware, go SysVinit".

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:43 am

by sunrat

This sysv v systemd stuff is really getting silly. It's like football, Man United are the best and Arsenal are all idiots (or vice versa depending on your preference).
As a user of both in several distros, they both work well and have identical speed and response. I do like journalctl better than scratching through log files though.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:29 am

by mxer

I like the simplicity of the old ways of unix, unfortunately, it is becoming harder to use it that way because of corporate backing of certain softwares.

Being tied into one way of doing things is not the unix way of working, there should always be choices.

I have been on the verge of departing Linux in favour of BSD for a while now, but am still managing to use a distro that thinks the same way as I do, so haven't gone..... yet.

I know no one cares what I think about this, you all have your own opinions - but it looks like the day will soon come, when you can no longer use your computer like you used to be able to do, & you will have to do what your are told to do/use - just like that other O/S.

Sitting on the fence - for now.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:30 am

by rasat

sunrat wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:43 am As a user of both in several distros, they both work well and have identical speed and response. I do like journalctl better than scratching through log files though.

That's not true. Running Xfce not that much but obvious difference running Gnome (most likely also KDE) in systemd and sysvinit. Same also with many apps. Try yourselves, install Gnome or Xfce, and we discuss.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=50684

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:40 am

by richb

Thank you Tim for an unbiased, insightful answer to my question.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:32 am

by anticapitalista

anticapitalista wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:33 pm
manyroads wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:24 pm
@rasat has asked me if it were possible to run the Gnome DE on antiX (he's a Gnome guy, I think.) I told him I'd give it a whirl; I'll set up a quick snapshot that will have both KDE & Gnome on the same antiX19 base.
Once we get to the next alpha/beta, the answer is yes.

Here it is running in virtualbox,

Code: Select all

System:    Host: antix1 Kernel: 4.9.176-antix.1-amd64-smp x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 8.3.0 
           Desktop: Gnome 3.30.2 wm: gnome-shell dm: SLiM 1.3.6 
           Distro: antiX-19.a3_x64-full Marielle Franco 5 June 2019 
           base: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) 
Memory:    RAM: total: 996.2 MiB used: 544.4 MiB (54.7%) 
Repos:     Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/antix.list 
           1: deb http: //ftp.cc.uoc.gr/mirrors/linux/mx/antix/buster buster main nonfree
           Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian-stable-updates.list 
           1: deb http: //ftp.gr.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main contrib non-free
           Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian.list 
           1: deb http: //ftp.gr.debian.org/debian/ buster main contrib non-free
           2: deb http: //security.debian.org/ buster/updates main contrib non-free
           No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/onion.list 
           No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/various.list 
Processes: CPU top: 5 
           1: cpu: 39.9% command: packagekitd pid: 2424 mem: 17.4 MiB (1.7%) 
           2: cpu: 19.3% command: gnome-shell pid: 2284 mem: 243.8 MiB (24.4%) 
           3: cpu: 6.1% command: gnome-software pid: 2536 mem: 113.5 MiB (11.3%) 
           4: cpu: 1.4% command: xorg pid: 2027 mem: 58.9 MiB (5.9%) 
           5: cpu: 0.9% command: init pid: 1 mem: 2.09 MiB (0.2%) 
           Memory top: 5 
           1: mem: 243.8 MiB (24.4%) command: gnome-shell pid: 2284 cpu: 19.3% 
           2: mem: 113.5 MiB (11.3%) command: gnome-software pid: 2536 cpu: 6.1% 
           3: mem: 58.9 MiB (5.9%) command: xorg pid: 2027 cpu: 1.4% 
           4: mem: 51.7 MiB (5.1%) command: evolution-alarm-notify pid: 2531 cpu: 0.7% 
           5: mem: 30.7 MiB (3.0%) command: clipit pid: 2533 cpu: 0.3% 
Info:      Processes: 163 Uptime: 1m Init: SysVinit v: 2.93 runlevel: 5 default: 5 Compilers: 
           gcc: 8.3.0 alt: 8 Client: Gnome v: 3.30.2 inxi: 3.0.33

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:26 am

by sunrat

rasat wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:30 am
sunrat wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:43 am As a user of both in several distros, they both work well and have identical speed and response. I do like journalctl better than scratching through log files though.
That's not true. Running Xfce not that much but obvious difference running Gnome (most likely also KDE) in systemd and sysvinit.

That's your opinion and you're certainly free to have it. Your posts indicate an ideological bias against systemd so I don't expect any different.
I run MX with sysvinit, AVLinux (Xfce) and siduction (KDE Plasma 5) with systemd and perceive no difference in performance. I have no ideological preference.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:05 am

by GuiGuy

Thanks, Tim, for your excellent post #48.

I am very glad anticapitalista is preparing a path through the jungle for those of us who would like to stay with sysvinit.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:55 am

by anticapitalista

GuiGuy wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:05 am
I am very glad anticapitalista is preparing a path through the jungle for those of us who would like to stay with sysvinit.

We should also thank the folks over at Debian-init-diversity (as HOAS mentioned).
Their work has made it easier to run Buster/sid without systemd.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:00 pm

by manyroads

anticapitalista wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:55 am We should also thank the folks over at Debian-init-diversity (as HOAS mentioned).
Their work has made it easier to run Buster/sid without systemd.

But as long as we're congratulating people... @ anticapitalista, your antiX work & team are fantastic. The more I dig, the more I like it. (Sorry I was off-track)

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:16 pm

by Head_on_a_Stick

BitJam wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:20 pm I don't think it's melodramatic. It's how I view the situation. YMMVG. IMO this attempt to force people to use systemd and make it very difficult not to is very similar to Microsoft's attempts to force people to use Windows and make it very difficult not to.

I think you're just being paranoid, Red Hat and the other corporations leading Linux development couldn't care less which init system desktop distributions use and they aren't trying to "force" anybody.

BitJam wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:20 pm It usually turns out that the "impressive raft of functionality" of systemd used by Gnome and others was already available using standard tools.

Yes, hacks are always possible — just look at the ridiculous PID files sysvinit uses to compensate for it's lack of process supervision.

And if such hacks are possible then there is no "lock in", you can't have it both ways...

timkb4cq wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:07 am Poettering looked at Apple's launchd and thought "Hey, wouldn't it be better if processes in Linux could be centrally tracked and managed as well as Apple does it?"

Process supervision is a fundamental part of init system functionality and it is offered by both runit and OpenRC, along with most other PID1 implementations.

See also https://busybox.net/~vda/init_vs_runsv.html

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:09 pm

by rasat

sunrat wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:26 am That's your opinion and you're certainly free to have it. Your posts indicate an ideological bias against systemd so I don't expect any different.
I run MX with sysvinit, AVLinux (Xfce) and siduction (KDE Plasma 5) with systemd and perceive no difference in performance. I have no ideological preference.

When I started the tests with ascii and beowulf respins (SysVinit, not systemd-shim as MX), I didn't expect any performance difference. Why should there be. Just wanted to check if systemd-shim can be replaced with SysVinit or not. When comparing my current running MX Gnome buster by debian with MX Gnome beowulf by devuan, in same machine, I was surprised about the speed difference.

Next test, installed MX 18.3 and checked the performance. Converted it to ascii and got surprised again with the speed. At bottom line, I hate opinions, when things can be tested and see with your own eyes. This why I made the DIY for members to check on their own. At this moment I have results when running in i7 machine. About other processors, no opinion.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:25 pm

by timkb4cq

Head_on_a_Stick wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:16 pm
timkb4cq wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:07 am Poettering looked at Apple's launchd and thought "Hey, wouldn't it be better if processes in Linux could be centrally tracked and managed as well as Apple does it?"
Process supervision is a fundamental part of init system functionality and it is offered by both runit and OpenRC, along with most other PID1 implementations.

Yes, runit has basic process management, but not to the extent that systemd has with cgroups where cpu, memory, i/o, etc can be limited & tracked (and yes, I realize OpenRC can integrate with cgroups). Nor does it do all the other things (that IMHO don't really belong in the init) like device management, power management, mount points, cron, encryption, etc. that are rolled into systemd.
It wasn't the if that was the itch Poettering was scratching it was the as well as.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:54 pm

by duane

I just want to point out that I think Mint is not a good example since it is a business owned by an individual.
Hey, I agree getting old is the pits!
We know very little about the future until Anti gets the beta out.
I can wait and see without all of this speculation.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:54 am

by rasat

anticapitalista wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:32 am Here it is running in virtualbox,

Code: Select all

System:    Host: antix1 Kernel: 4.9.176-antix.1-amd64-smp x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 8.3.0 
           Desktop: Gnome 3.30.2 wm: gnome-shell dm: SLiM 1.3.6 
           Distro: antiX-19.a3_x64-full Marielle Franco 5 June 2019 
           base: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) 
Memory:    RAM: total: 996.2 MiB used: 544.4 MiB (54.7%) 
Repos:     Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/antix.list 
           1: deb http: //ftp.cc.uoc.gr/mirrors/linux/mx/antix/buster buster main nonfree
           Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian-stable-updates.list 
           1: deb http: //ftp.gr.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main contrib non-free
           Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian.list 
           1: deb http: //ftp.gr.debian.org/debian/ buster main contrib non-free
           2: deb http: //security.debian.org/ buster/updates main contrib non-free
           No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/onion.list 
           No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/various.list 
Processes: CPU top: 5 
           1: cpu: 39.9% command: packagekitd pid: 2424 mem: 17.4 MiB (1.7%) 
           2: cpu: 19.3% command: gnome-shell pid: 2284 mem: 243.8 MiB (24.4%) 
           3: cpu: 6.1% command: gnome-software pid: 2536 mem: 113.5 MiB (11.3%) 
           4: cpu: 1.4% command: xorg pid: 2027 mem: 58.9 MiB (5.9%) 
           5: cpu: 0.9% command: init pid: 1 mem: 2.09 MiB (0.2%) 
           Memory top: 5 
           1: mem: 243.8 MiB (24.4%) command: gnome-shell pid: 2284 cpu: 19.3% 
           2: mem: 113.5 MiB (11.3%) command: gnome-software pid: 2536 cpu: 6.1% 
           3: mem: 58.9 MiB (5.9%) command: xorg pid: 2027 cpu: 1.4% 
           4: mem: 51.7 MiB (5.1%) command: evolution-alarm-notify pid: 2531 cpu: 0.7% 
           5: mem: 30.7 MiB (3.0%) command: clipit pid: 2533 cpu: 0.3% 
Info:      Processes: 163 Uptime: 1m Init: SysVinit v: 2.93 runlevel: 5 default: 5 Compilers: 
           gcc: 8.3.0 alt: 8 Client: Gnome v: 3.30.2 inxi: 3.0.33

Thanks anticapitalista, looks promising to have a system which runs all DE and WM, freedom of choice. I will take a look at the repos.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:07 am

by anticapitalista

rasat wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:54 am

anticapitalista wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:32 am Here it is running in virtualbox,

Code: Select all

System:    Host: antix1 Kernel: 4.9.176-antix.1-amd64-smp x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 8.3.0 
           Desktop: Gnome 3.30.2 wm: gnome-shell dm: SLiM 1.3.6 
           Distro: antiX-19.a3_x64-full Marielle Franco 5 June 2019 
           base: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) 
Memory:    RAM: total: 996.2 MiB used: 544.4 MiB (54.7%) 
Repos:     Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/antix.list 
           1: deb http: //ftp.cc.uoc.gr/mirrors/linux/mx/antix/buster buster main nonfree
           Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian-stable-updates.list 
           1: deb http: //ftp.gr.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main contrib non-free
           Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian.list 
           1: deb http: //ftp.gr.debian.org/debian/ buster main contrib non-free
           2: deb http: //security.debian.org/ buster/updates main contrib non-free
           No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/onion.list 
           No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/various.list 
Processes: CPU top: 5 
           1: cpu: 39.9% command: packagekitd pid: 2424 mem: 17.4 MiB (1.7%) 
           2: cpu: 19.3% command: gnome-shell pid: 2284 mem: 243.8 MiB (24.4%) 
           3: cpu: 6.1% command: gnome-software pid: 2536 mem: 113.5 MiB (11.3%) 
           4: cpu: 1.4% command: xorg pid: 2027 mem: 58.9 MiB (5.9%) 
           5: cpu: 0.9% command: init pid: 1 mem: 2.09 MiB (0.2%) 
           Memory top: 5 
           1: mem: 243.8 MiB (24.4%) command: gnome-shell pid: 2284 cpu: 19.3% 
           2: mem: 113.5 MiB (11.3%) command: gnome-software pid: 2536 cpu: 6.1% 
           3: mem: 58.9 MiB (5.9%) command: xorg pid: 2027 cpu: 1.4% 
           4: mem: 51.7 MiB (5.1%) command: evolution-alarm-notify pid: 2531 cpu: 0.7% 
           5: mem: 30.7 MiB (3.0%) command: clipit pid: 2533 cpu: 0.3% 
Info:      Processes: 163 Uptime: 1m Init: SysVinit v: 2.93 runlevel: 5 default: 5 Compilers: 
           gcc: 8.3.0 alt: 8 Client: Gnome v: 3.30.2 inxi: 3.0.33

Thanks anticapitalista, looks promising to have a system which runs all DE and WM, freedom of choice. I will take a look at the repos.

I didn't even need the nosystemd repo enabled (buster). You must install elogind and libpam-elogind-compat

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:20 am

by manyroads

Here's my status update on antiX19 with Xfce & Openbox... (systemd-free)

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=50768

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:43 pm

by Head_on_a_Stick

timkb4cq wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:25 pm
Head_on_a_Stick wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:16 pm
timkb4cq wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:07 am Poettering looked at Apple's launchd and thought "Hey, wouldn't it be better if processes in Linux could be centrally tracked and managed as well as Apple does it?"
Process supervision is a fundamental part of init system functionality and it is offered by both runit and OpenRC, along with most other PID1 implementations.
Yes, runit has basic process management, but not to the extent that systemd has with cgroups where cpu, memory, i/o, etc can be limited & tracked (and yes, I realize OpenRC can integrate with cgroups). Nor does it do all the other things (that IMHO don't really belong in the init) like device management, power management, mount points, cron, encryption, etc. that are rolled into systemd.

Those extra features that you don't like can be disabled, both at run time and at compile time — you could even package up a version of systemd with all the those bits removed from the code just by using ./configure flags

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:48 pm

by manyroads

double-posted (sorry)

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:48 pm

by dolphin_oracle

debian actually disables a lot of stuff on its live images...

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:49 pm

by manyroads

The eirenicon (ManyRoads) antiXalpha Respin (Xfce & Openbox) is now in the wild. You may read about what it contains, how it was built, download it, etc. from here:

http://eirenicon.org/2019/06/07/antix-o ... n-release/

Enjoy antiX systemd-free and buster based alpha software!

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:32 pm

by rasat

anticapitalista wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:07 am I didn't even need the nosystemd repo enabled (buster). You must install elogind and libpam-elogind-compat

Did fresh AntiX19 alpha install, nosystemd repo is needed. Without, gives unmet dependencies errors:

Code: Select all

gnome-shell : Depends: gnome-settings-daemon (>= 3.16.0) but it is not going to be installed
Depends: libpulse-mainloop-glib0 (>= 0.99.1) but it is not going to be installed

Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/antix.list
deb https://mirrors.netix.net/mx/MX-Packages/antix/buster buster main nosystemd nonfree
deb http://ftp.cc.uoc.gr/mirrors/linux/mx/antix/buster buster main nonfree

Other repos fine as they they are.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:45 am

by anticapitalista

Did you install libpam-elogind-compat?

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:40 am

by rasat

anticapitalista wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:45 am Did you install libpam-elogind-compat?

Install antix19 -> upgrade all pkgs -> repo: deb http://ftp.cc.uoc.gr/mirrors/linux/mx/antix/buster buster main nonfree -> install elogind and libpam-elogind-compat -> sudo service elogind start -->> install gnome-shell ----->> unmet dependencies errors

Remove pkg cache - > Replace with repo: deb https://mirrors.netix.net/mx/MX-Packages/antix/buster buster main nosystemd nonfree --> update -- > install gnome-shell -----> works fine

It seems repo "/antix/buster buster main nonfree" is not needed.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:44 am

by anticapitalista

The uoc mirror is not up to date, it seems.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:53 am

by rasat

Please check the mirror, so we get the right repo and install steps. In general looks good.

I tried converting MX 18.3 to Antix 19 with the repos, but its not smooth, removes important pkgs. Same as stretch to buster.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:48 am

by anticapitalista

antiX-19 is still in alpha stage so I wouldn't even attempt to upgrade MX-18.3 using its own buster based repos let alone the antiX buster repos.

I have no control on whether the mirrors are up to date every day. I have to assume they are, or remove them from our repos list.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:39 pm

by BitJam

anticapitalista wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:48 am I have no control on whether the mirrors are up to date every day. I have to assume they are, or remove them from our repos list.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:51 pm

by rasat

Where do I found the mirrors?

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:58 pm

by anticapitalista

rasat wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:51 pm Where do I found the mirrors?

https://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic ... rors-list/

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:41 pm

by rasat

anticapitalista wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:48 am antiX-19 is still in alpha stage so I wouldn't even attempt to upgrade MX-18.3 using its own buster based repos let alone the antiX buster repos.

I managed to dist-upgrade MX18.3 with antiX19alpha repos, works well, except few MX tools. In this upgrade systemd was removed, and runs with sysvinit-core. There were minor tweaks such as "sudo apt --fix-broken install" and complete removal of network-manager and install again (didn't connect).

Repos:

Code: Select all

antix.list
deb https://mirrors.netix.net/mx/MX-Packages/antix/buster/ buster main nosystemd nonfree 
deb http://ftp.cc.uoc.gr/mirrors/linux/mx/antix/buster/ buster nonfree main

debian.list
deb http://ftp.gr.debian.org/debian/ buster non-free contrib main

debian-stable-updates-list
deb http://ftp.gr.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates non-free contrib main

mx.list
deb https://mirrors.netix.net/mx/MX-Packages/mx/repo/ stretch main non-free

/preferences.d/00systemd
Package: *systemd*
Pin: origin ""
Pin-Priority: -1

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:08 pm

by anticapitalista

You have 2 mirrors for antiX buster

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:50 pm

by rasat

anticapitalista wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:08 pm You have 2 mirrors for antiX buster

I took a look at antix19beta, and copied from there the respos to my mx19 antix respin. Soon will be uploaded for testing.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:37 pm

by rasat

MX 18.3 Buster Non-systemd Respin:
viewtopic.php?f=100&t=50981

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:31 am

by kernelkurtz

Reading tonight's Distrowatch: https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20190624

They reviewed Guix, and made brief mention in the review of something called The GNU Shepherd.

https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/

" ... It provides a replacement for the service-managing capabilities of SysV-init (or any other init) with a both powerful and beautiful dependency-based system with a convenient interface. It is intended for use on GNU/Hurd, but it is supposed to work on every POSIX-like system where Guile is available. In particular, it is used as PID 1 by GNU Guix"

Sounds promising enough ...

I feel pretty certain that I have no idea what I'm talking about, and that this isn't any kind of option for MX, and that someone will be along shortly to tell me in patient language why, and that the greenest rube should have been able to see why, in advance.

But what the hell.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:57 am

by manyroads

kernelkurtz wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:31 am [...]
Sounds promising enough ...

I feel pretty certain that I have no idea what I'm talking about, and that this isn't any kind of option for MX, and that someone will be along shortly to tell me in patient language why, and that the greenest rube should have been able to see why, in advance.

But what the hell.

No complaints from this old guy. I like your sense of adventure, discovery & interest.

It will be interesting to see what comes of it all.
But as for me right now... I need my coffee.

Re: Rage against the systemd 'machine'

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:35 am

by timkb4cq

kernelkurtz wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:31 amI feel pretty certain that I have no idea what I'm talking about, and that this isn't any kind of option for MX...

Shepherd does indeed look interesting. Takes some of the good ideas in systemd but still follows K.I.S.S.
I think the antiX/MX live system could probably be made to work with it fairly easily (from reading the docs - there is always a possibility of unseen issues you only discover when you run headlong into them).

However, we use Debian to supply most of our packages and Debian supplies approximately zero packages for system services that include service config files for Shepherd. It's not really practical to track down & rebuild all of those.

Thanks for linking it though. I can see enough similarities in the service files where an ambitious coder could make an automatic translator from systemd service files to shepherd service files that would work most of the time.
But I am not that coder.