MX Linux Forum

Not sure what to make of all this "Linux love" from Microsoft:
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/6/18534 ... el-feature

Microsoft is also promising to update this kernel through Windows Update

Uh-oh.

As long as MS is "root" - i say, "no thanks".

Don't MS servers already run on Linux? Not surprised by this.

Eadwine Rose wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 5:51 am Don't MS servers already run on Linux? Not surprised by this.

Yup, azure is sort of linux based..... sort of.
As for what i think about this, well I am neutral.
This is not the Same Microsoft as what Bill gates had or Ballmer had.... no its a new animal.
One that seems at war with itself, with Nadella actually being one of the good guys wanting co operation with others rather than control.
Microsoft needs to adapt, they need to change.
To be the big bad Microsoft is not going to be in their favour for much longer they need to change and for his part Nadella is doing the right thing.
Its the rest of the company that seems to be doing its own thing, he may be in charge but he is in charge of a discordant band that makes The Shaggs* look like the philharmonic.
While i still dont trust Microsoft its certainly a different beast now then it was under Ballmer.
When Nadella leaves I hope he leaves the company in good hands as if there is another Ballmer we are kind of screwed.
While i actually think Microsoft funding linux is actually a good thing, their reputation in the past makes me wary about the next dude who comes in.

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eEpyxoNkwk

Windows 10?

They can ship it with whatever they like, even hard cash. Won't touch it... :lipsrsealed:

Microsoft is also promising to update this kernel through Windows Update,

Yeah, that's surely a fail-safe and well-tested way to get quality updates...


6 more months of transition testing and my +30 year with Microsoft comes to the end.

Linux for the future!

Well they can try, but I don't see it as being a big deal. Why would a sys-admin or cto buy into a knock off when he or she can get the real thing for free?

j2mcgreg wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 12:53 pm Well they can try, but I don't see it as being a big deal. Why would a sys-admin or cto buy into a knock off when he or she can get the real thing for free?

Good point. But the idea is probably to keep people in the MS ecosystem.

j2mcgreg wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 12:53 pm Well they can try, but I don't see it as being a big deal. Why would a sys-admin or cto buy into a knock off when he or she can get the real thing for free?

IBM/Red Hat seem to be running with that model, as well. Oh and they're making money.

manyroads wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 4:37 pm

j2mcgreg wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 12:53 pm Well they can try, but I don't see it as being a big deal. Why would a sys-admin or cto buy into a knock off when he or she can get the real thing for free?

IBM/Red Hat seem to be running with that model, as well. Oh and they're making money.

Just FYI, the top four corporate contributors to Linux kernel development in 2017 were Microsoft, Google, Red Hat & IBM (in descending order).

https://twitter.com/mjasay/status/960563592683667456

EDIT: and IBM spent a lot of money defending Linux in the SCO lawsuits.

Windows has been moving away from OS sales and towards ToS sales.
I think for them, I'm not sure how much they make off selling support.
But I'm sure both are dwarfed by them selling marketing. Forcing news feeds into peopls desktops which I'm sure they can generate add revenue.
But above that, those Terms of Service let them spy on every detail, every keystroke, every mouse hover, all personal data.
And sell that to whoever they choose. How much difference is having a different kernel going to make with reguards to that, probably none. If anything, it will put them more in line with Apple, which OSX was developed from Open BSD linux. Back when Jobs left apple to develop NExT, and returned bringing the os with him.

Will it do anything for the linux world. It is hard to say.

bobbee wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 5:16 pm OSX was developed from Open BSD linux

OSX is based on FreeBSD.

Anyway, Microsoft have made consistent contributions to kernel development over several years and they are a Platinum member of the Linux Foundation:

https://www.linuxfoundation.org/membership/members/

So I think we should all be thankful to MS for their efforts

So you think MS is a contributor to the Linux Foundation out of the goodness of their non-existent hearts?

I guess I'm not that naive.

Not only is MS adding a real Linux kernel to their WSL, they will also be releasing a new 5.0 version of .Net. Take this quote from https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/i ... ing-net-5/ :

Today, we’re announcing that the next release after .NET Core 3.0 will be .NET 5. This will be the next big release in the .NET family.
There will be just one .NET going forward, and you will be able to use it to target Windows, Linux, macOS, iOS, Android, tvOS, watchOS and WebAssembly and more.
We will introduce new .NET APIs, runtime capabilities and language features as part of .NET 5.

Embrace, extend, extinguish. The old game.

I am really glad they botched Windows 8 to 10 so very badly... or else I might not have found the drive to start the long-winded process of changing my base OS. This process is still not finished and there are some things in Linux that are quite bothersome but overall it's the only way forward.

I've seen my fair share of Microsoft's "embrace, extend, extinguish" antics, and considering all that has gone on within Linux land lately, I smell a rat.

As for them making a mess of Windows 8 and not knowing how to count, I do wish Windows 8 and Windows 10 were not so bad. Fundamentally speaking Windows is a good operating system (at least the Windows NT based ones are), and I would continue running just Windows if they didn't try to turn my PC into a smartphone that breaks every time I try to start it, because it wants to do an update.

Microsoft, as all other companies, always work for a profit. 'Free' Services and Software by a company either use you as a beta tester, or expect you to upgrade to a paid service once you are familiar enough with the program/service, or want you to be a developer to the ecosystem and lure customers in. There is nothing wrong using something 'free' from Microsoft as long as you are satisfied by the current state of the program/service and is mature enough and cover your needs. But you always must be prepared, if something is not making a profit for them, they can terminate it unexpectedly or never fix a bug in it even if its just one line of code.

From what I have read, this kernel is still going to be emulated on top of a MS kernel.

bobbee wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 2:48 am So you think MS is a contributor to the Linux Foundation out of the goodness of their non-existent hearts?

No of course not, they are contributing to Linux because they see commercial benefit in it.

But why does the motivation matter? The code is the important thing and they are helping to improve it.

And Microsoft can't extinguish Linux because the GPL won't let them :-)

They might not be able to extinguish it, but they could influence changes in the core that would not be good for users or developers.
A company with deep pockets like that could do allot of good things, but they can also do allot of bad.

MS is focused on corporations and the cloud. I think consumers have become an after thought. I cant imagine why your average consumer needs to put up with all the hassles - and security risks ( actually, gaping holes).

I think Windows is going to start losing market share at an accelerating clip - as more and more people discover the wonderful linux distros ( like MX).
Sure there will be those that need Adobe Photoshop , or certain games that will tolerate windows. But there are a LOT of people who can be happy with the existing apps available in linux ( I am).
Then - Adobe and others will need to figure out how to address the growing linux market.
Maybe one idea is AppImages. They could provide a non-free appimage for some apps. I would be fine with that.

All those adobe and other products work on apple osx which is basically linux. I don't think that it should be that much of a stretch to also run them on linux.

bobbee wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 2:56 am They might not be able to extinguish it, but they could influence changes in the core that would not be good for users or developers.

Peer review should prevent that, theoretically. All commits are visible after all — that's how the OpenBSD developers found out about Spectre & Meltdown before the embargo ended.

bobbee wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 2:26 pm apple osx which is basically linux

No, OSX is based on FreeBSD, as I mentioned earlier.

The BSDs are not Linux, they are completely different operating systems with their own kernels.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 2:18 am
Anyway, Microsoft have made consistent contributions to kernel development over several years and they are a Platinum member of the Linux Foundation:

https://www.linuxfoundation.org/membership/members/

So I think we should all be thankful to MS for their efforts

Honestly, if Microsoft did not have such a dark history toward Linux, openly calling it a cancer and other fun things, I would not be so wary of the company. Nevertheless, if over time they prove they are no longer idiots I'd be pleased to see it. I think they would be smart to truly embrace open source, and I am sort of waiting for them to outright buy a Linux distro, may Ubuntu, not because they need to, but because it may be dawning on them that open source can end up making them money, and for selling services, the more users the better irregardless of the OS.

Like the adage,
"The enemy of my enemy Is my friend."

KBD wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:54 pm I think they would be smart to truly embrace open source

They have already acknowledged that open source development produces better software than their traditional proprietary model, this is why they open-sourced the .NET framework.

https://dotnet.microsoft.com/platform/open-source

They also have a new terminal emulator for Windows and that is open source:

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandl ... -terminal/

And have you tried the Windows Subsystem for Linux? Version 2 is out now and much quicker (apparently).

After the Halloween documents and having been on the front lines in the SCO Wars, I will never ever trust Microsoft in their relationship with FOSS. They secretly acknowledged the superiority of FOSS development back in the late 1990s along with dirty tricks they used to crush FOSS. They at least partially funded the SCO Wars against FOSS.

Have they finally turned a new leaf or have they just gotten more devious? How many times will Charlie Brown trust that Lucy is going to hold the football for him before he learns his lesson? How many times will you leave the Arden Forest weakly defended? Some FOSS luminaries, such as Daniel Robbins, gave Microsoft a chance and worked for them. But Robbins, at least, quit after less than a year.

If Microsoft had actually turned a new leaf then, for example, the would have switched to using GMT in the hardware clock over a decade ago. This is just one of the dozens of things they do that make it more difficult to install Linux on a Windows machine. It is insanely stupid to use local time in the hardware clock in the age of the internet. You may claim they are being insanely stupid but I believe they are not stupid and are still messing with us. I also think their war against FOSS is working and it is the only reason why Microsoft still dominates the desktop. Back in the late 1990s Microsoft acknowledged that they could not compete with us technically and their only hope was to fight dirty. Despite these latest fig-leaf olive-branches, I don't see anything in that situation that has changed.

KBD wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:54 pmHonestly, if Microsoft did not have such a dark history toward Linux, openly calling it a cancer and other fun things, I would not be so wary of the company.

This was CEO Steve Ballmer calling Linux a cancer, and it was all back when Microsoft were run by the Gates/Ballmer duo.
A lot of notable changes have happened since Satya Nadella took the reigns so I'm willing to approach this with an open mind, albeit with maximum caution. I have noticed the focus is becoming less on Windows and more on cloud services and datacentre operations. Still, with millions of devices that can all be running Windows thanks to OEM agreements, and thousands more that can be upgraded, it would be unwise at the moment for Microsoft to ditch consumer Windows.

KBD wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:54 pmNevertheless, if over time they prove they are no longer idiots I'd be pleased to see it.

Well for a start, they can learn how to count to 10 and they can learn to listen to users who don't want forced upgrades that break things. Also people need to vote with their wallets, as is what happened with Internet Explorer. Microsoft saw IE decline in usage because Firefox and Opera and other browsers were superior, and people went over to them. Microsoft eventually smartened up and tightened the security of IE and we got IE7. They then improved standards compliance, and we got IE8.

It is a bit harder with Windows, because it's pre-installed on hardware, but I have heard of cases where people managed to get a refund for their Windows licenses. Be wary of software that needs any runtimes from Microsoft as the EULA for those runtimes state that you can only run it on a computer with a Windows licence. I wonder how it can be enforced legally as a contract though, since nobody signs an agreement when they purchase a computer (any lawyers like to chime in?)

KBD wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:54 pmI think they would be smart to truly embrace open source, and I am sort of waiting for them to outright buy a Linux distro, may Ubuntu, not because they need to, but because it may be dawning on them that open source can end up making them money, and for selling services, the more users the better irregardless of the OS.

It probably won't be too long, and now that I think of it it wouldn't surprise me if this Linux kernel inclusion is a stepping stone towards it. Otherwise it doesn't make sense for a Linux kernel to be included with Windows, because almost no typical software these days runs exclusively on Linux, there are native Windows analog of it, even though it may not be the same software.

Now, as for GMT in the hardware clock, Windows 7 has a registry tweak that can be used to enable it. I can't remember what it is off the top of my head, but I use it on my system.

But, having a Linux kernel available should/may allow native execution of Linux applications.
That way, they can say, "We do it your way.",
or some other marketing phrase.

Chrome machines are going to natively run Debian going forward. And Google makes great software compared to MS. The way I see it - all these companies manage to get access to whatever user data they can. The issue is - do I get something of value in exchange? With chrome browser/gmail /contacts/keep / Maps etc - that is huge functionality I get from from Google. And it all works and works very well.
On the other hand - what do I get for hassling with windows? Nothing of value. ( well... I am not a gamer so I cant speak to games). Nothing that I cant get from a free linux installation.

I bet chromebooks running Debian are going to be hugely attractive - especially at the low prices for the hardware.

BitJam, I like your Charlie Brown football description--it could be that indeed. I haven't forgotten: Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. And it will take years, at least, of MS playing well with others before I ever trust them. Yet I think MS has chosen a new target, Google. I think their old nastiness now is aimed at Google over the school and office space and the cloud, and you can toss AWS into the cloud battle as well.
The extend policy toward Linux seems in full view with the github purchase, and using a version of Linux for their IoT. Now the full kernel to attract and keep developers. As mentioned, I expect a full distro purchase from MS next. They probably won't go for "extinguish" but they are likely to embrace the crap out of us before they are through. I don't think they see us as the danger they did in the late 90s-mid 2000s. But I do think they see Google as "the Linux that could eat their lunch" and did with Android, and is making them feel the pain with Chromebooks and web services.

Head_on_a_Stick, I hope your optimism pans out. I think MS has learned much from Linux over the years, and may use it ever more to take whatever ground they can gain. They could be a big help to Linux, but don't trust them too much just yet :)

AK-47, Windows 10 has a fatal flaw that will continue to drive users toward Linux. At first it was the idea of forcing Windows 10 down everyone's throat, then the privacy issue, more recently the endless bugs. But now it is the update schedule that leaves more computers behind with every major update with firmware and drivers no longer supported. Much of that is the OEM's fault, but Windows has only 18 months support after every big bi-annual update for computers that can no longer take the big updates. Plus MS stupidly put out devices with 32-64 gb storage, and there is no room for more updates. Lots of still very usable hardware going to be running Linux in the years ahead because Windows left them behind.

rs55 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 1:04 pm Chrome machines are going to natively run Debian going forward. And Google makes great software compared to MS. The way I see it - all these companies manage to get access to whatever user data they can. The issue is - do I get something of value in exchange? With chrome browser/gmail /contacts/keep / Maps etc - that is huge functionality I get from from Google. And it all works and works very well.
On the other hand - what do I get for hassling with windows? Nothing of value. ( well... I am not a gamer so I cant speak to games). Nothing that I cant get from a free linux installation.

I bet chromebooks running Debian are going to be hugely attractive - especially at the low prices for the hardware.

One Big worry I have about Google is their terminal ADD. They lose interest in stuff faster than my 9 month old granddaughter. Chromebooks are an established hit in schools and for low cost entry into computers. I was thrilled with them when they first came out. But I have seen grumbles across the Internet on message boards and I have the same thoughts. Chromebooks hit a home run with the KISS Principle. Dead simple to use, reliable, low spec requirements, battery life that seems endless. But then they added Android. Now they have added the ability to run some Linux apps. They created a lot of aggravation for themselves. While Android and Crostini for Linux apps sounded awesome, its application has been uneven and not very satisfying and even confusing for users.
I also think the 5 year EOL support, while it sounds like a long time is not very good. You can buy a 'new Chromebook' off the shelf and find out you have maybe 3-4 years support left on it, and even less on refurbished machines. I know because I've bought 4 Chromebooks and one went out of support a year ago, 3 others next month lose support. I got rid of 1 machine, another was garbage and fell apart. I have two left that are running a ChromeOS substitute, ChromiumOS (CloudReady). 1 will be running full Linux shortly.
I think Google is over-complicating their once simple solution to computing. And every model is different, one gets Android, one gets Crostini, one gets both, another gets neither--often without rhyme or reason.