MX Linux Forum

Hi there, all. I've tried numerous linux flavors for older machines and have to say that I'm very very impressed at the performance level of MX Linux 17, 32bit, on an older Acer Travelmate with 1.73 Ghz single core 32bit Processor and only 2 GB of installed Ram (have a 3G swap file installed as well, just in case). This is it, MX Linux just blows me away because I can install my beloved XFCE desktop which has the ability to make everything look pretty darn good, while at the same time providing a performance level that's just unreal, for a machine as old as that Acer laptop. However, not everything is rosey, most especially not the install procedure ....

We live in Germany and my goal is to help as many, especially older (35 to 60) Germans, to begin using a computer (possibly the first computer) with Linux ... MX Linux or Linux Mint XFCE, that is, depending on the hardware features of the machine. During the installation on three different machines, I noticed some minor issues with the MX Linux installer. Minor issues for me, unsurmountable issues for a new computer user with a "foreign" keyboard.

The verbiage in the installer is English, definitely a problem, one that I'd like to help correct as quickly as possible. I speak, read, and write the German language just as fluently as the English language, so if anyone cares to submit pre-configured english language files to me, I'd be happy to make the correctinos for free. If a German language template hasn't been started yet, but another language file exists, I can use that as well. For example, I can use an English/Spanish file to make an English/German file. No Online translator stuff, just the real deal ....

Another problem with the installer is the password option. This is a real problem for anyone with a foreign keyboard, i.e. people in Germany with a German keyboard. When I create a Linux session for someone, I have a special very good yet easy to remember password that I use as a default. This password utilizes an underscore (_) key. Well, when you create such a password with MX Linux during the installation ... the user does not know that their underscore key will be recognized as something else, since it defaults to US English values ... where the underscore key is actually located in a totally different area of the keyboard.
This would not be a problem exclusively for myself, but for anyone who decides to use an underscore during the installation of MX Linux.
It would be very beneficial to anyone from another Country, to be able to select their languiage & keyboard BEFORE the instalallation begins.

This is important because even after I changed my language and layout, the underscore key still did not work.
Why is that? It's because they were selected before the actuall installation did it's thing.
Consequently, even after the installation that incorrect underscore key still persisted. This could potentially be very confusing to some people ...

Great job though. I love MX Linux and the fact that it's so highly yet still quite easily customizeable.

.

You could have chosen F2 at the live boot menu to set up German localisation.
That would have provided an installer written in German as well as a German keyboard layout.

Oh - and welcome to the forum.

Hello, welcome to the forum.

As you are intending to help other users become familiar with MX, may I respectfully suggest you have a read of the manual?

You would have found how to set the default keyboard and language prior to installing there in section 2.

Chris

As the others have said, this can be sorted if you read the manual, and take a look at all the options that are available to you when you start the livedvd/liveusb.

I suggest ditching what you have and reinstalling, selecting the proper data from the getgo.


Welcome to the forums!

Perhaps more relevant for OP: look at the bottom of the screen when booting Live, and click on the Help if unclear.

Thanks for all of those comments. I'll have to see how the next install works out. As far as helping others getting to know and work with MX, yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. With that said, I always work on a computer for "noobs" with the thought that the other person knows little to nothing about a computer and would like to see things easily and as (hopefully) logically as they are needed ... without first having to resort to a manual ... because as terrible as it may sound, many if not most people simply can't be bothered to read anymore. That's just the way it is. I find that to be frustrating to no end, but that won't change the current reality, nor will that change the fact that I'm still trying to be helpful anyway.

I downloaded the MX 17 iso, loaded it onto a bootable USB stick, and began the installation after using the startup prompt on the screen to enter either the bios or the boot menu, which would allow me to select booting from the USB device first, i.e. getting the ability to boot into MX Linux.

Suggesting looking around on thew screen for a language menu was/is completely alien to me. When installing Ubuntu or Mint, the language selection pops up directly in front of your face, and as a result your later selected keyboard is already set to the previously chosen language during the installation process. Sorry, but to me that's the logical and sensible way to go about it when trying to have the "masses from all over the world" embrace a Linux OS. The easier that process is, the easier and happer people will be able to deal with it later on. My ultimate goal is not only to help people, but also for them to eventually help themselves ... one day being willing to try an installation on their own ... without having to hunt things down on a screen or looking for a manual or becoming otherwise too easily frustrated, just because of the language selection ... which should, IMO, require neither. Desired OS language with instant automatic (internal?) keyboard selection, should be right in your face where it can't be missed by anyone.
No biggie. I love MX Linux and will be installing it on a couple of old setups by next week.
I'll pay more attention to the setup process then. Promise ...

Ooops, forgot to mention ... not having the language with subsequent automatic keyboard selection right in your face from the start also causes some other things that aren't very pleasant. As we already know, changing the language keyboard after the installation will not automatically change the prior, now incorrect keys, such as Z, Y, _, and others when comparing the DE to US layouts.

Even worse, the earlier (accidental) English installation doesn't change any web-browser settings later on. My Firefox & Thunderbird still have English in them, even though the German language has been selected. Adding the language pack later apparently doesn't change the initial default setup.

Same applies to some of the other apps, like Keepassx, SMPlayer, etc.

I think that the whole purpse of having the language selection in your face right in the beginning where it can't be missed, is to avoid exactly these types of issues which are nothing to people with lots of computer and/or Linux experience ... but which make a huge difference to anyone who's just getting their feet wet with Linux. There, that's it. Have a great evening, or morning, or day, whatever time-zone you may be in.

The best way for you to help those who want to try and install MX is to tell them to use F2 to set up their localisation.
Especially so as you now know why.

Hi linwinux.
Just some further thoughts.. The menu you see when you boot up from USB/CD
is not just a simple menu. It is far more intelligent then it appears at the first glance.
All the stuff like language, timezone, keyboard .. and much much more is handled for you from
within this boot menu. This is amazing stuff. And there have been lot's of thoughts
and intelligence gone into that.
And one further amazing feature you'll find within that menu is that
it helps you run a full customized OS with persistence ( to keep/remember changes you made
with the live system).
I must admint some of my remastered ISO’s (USB-sticks) I made fore relatives and friends
do also have a localized boot-menu in my local language with the correct time zone and the right keyboard.
You might learn to create you own remastered USB-stick with help of tools provided by MX-Linux already. And I’m sure you’ll soon will manage to get also you localized USB-installer.
But until you have build that you better press F2+F3 to change language, keayboard and timzone.

As you original request appears sorted please mark this thread as solved.
Happy menu!

Thank you, fehlix. I agree with most of what you have to say ...

I can not in good conscience mark the thread as solved though. Solved would have meant that MX Linux Developers (here on the forum?) would be receptive to changes and improvements for the overall user experience. It wasn't even open to discussion. The responses were mostly similar too ... "It works as you desire with a little reading so back off" ... and that's not exactly what I would call solving an issue.

Whether the people here like to admit it or not, the "language in your face thing" is indeed an issue. If it wasn't, then how come Debian, Mint, Ubuntu, and many other Debian flavors make the language a fail-safe option right from the getgo? Fail-Safe means that you can't screw it up ... here are all of your language choices ... see them right in front of you ... now pick one already, damn it.

When I found out that MX Linux is an effort of people from Mepis and Antix coming together, my thinking was that here is a group of people who are dedicated to make Linux not only spectacularily awesome for older machines, but also by putting heads together, being receptive to making MX Linux a mind boggling user experience as well ... which of course includes new users and those who are wanting to make that switch from Windows to Linux.

The singular reason why Linux Distros are finally becoming something for the non-technical masses to use, is the initial user experience for anyone with little computer experience, or those who are only used to Windows. So making the experience of switching to or using Linux for the first time, regardless which flavor, should (IMO) be one of the two primary concerns for any developers who would like to see their Distro used & distributed globally by many people. From the answers here, I'm getting the feeling that "we're pretty happy with the way things are" ... and that's a shame. Well, whatever. I realize that I'm just a newbie here in the forum, but that doesn't change the fact that I have 27 years of professional computer experience. My life is about computers & internet, as well as helping others. I love to make life with computers an easier experience for people ... especially in Countries like Germany and other European Countries, where you might be surprised to find out just how many people still have no computer or are still using WindowsXP or Windows7. For example, we live in a small village with about 2500 people. I would be amazed if more than half of the adults here have a computer that's being used on a regular basis, no kidding. And Europe is filled with thousands upon thousands of villages just like this one ... where people need to be able to do things easily from the first time that a screen is powered on. Alright, enough of that, end of the soap-box. Sorry about all the wasted time.
PEACE

It wasn't even open to discussion

Of course it was, come on. There was nothing on the table to discuss so we explained how it works. We also noted that most of our users have had no problems with it so it hasn't qualified as an "issue."

If you have a concrete and positive suggestion about improving the current method, make it (in a few words, please) so we can discuss it.

There is nothing wrong with the installer when the correct location has been selected.
But the live DVD/USB would be better if, when booted, it immediately forced the user to choose his location instead of requiring
a keypress .
Not sure what is the best way to present this choice without using any language: how do other distros do it?

We just spent a lot of time on the next version of our installer moving the keyboard selection to the front of the installer.

The one thing to remember about the antiX project is that its amazing live setup features, and it would be silly of us not to point out existing solutions when a user has an issue as the OP did with their install. Without those live features, and the mx tool set, we are just another Debian XFCE. We are justifiably proud of the live setup. And since the our installer installs a "running live system", it makes a lot of sense to set that stuff up before installing.

Could some of that be even easier to set up. Probably. Its why we moved the keyboard setup in the next version.

The live features make all that you wanted (language, keyboard, etc...) possible before the install.

Well, I suppose it's just a matter of preference then? Firstly, I didn't have a problem with the selection at all. Since English & German are both native to me, it didn't make a difference to me which of the two languages I would be dealing with. And nobody, or at least not me, is taking anything away from the MX Toolset. Certainly that's something to be very proud of. BUT ... those people who are already familiar with MX Linux or Antix, are more than likely already aware of those features. My point of view, which I thought I made clear, was strictly from the new user / Windows switcher / first time installer ... point of view. For those people, would it not make more sense to have the language feature right up there from the get-go?
How would that diminish the MX Toolset?

Of course it was, come on. There was nothing on the table to discuss so we explained how it works.

I would think that any thread which begins with ... REQUEST ... would make it obvious that that word invites a discussion.

In the end I suppose it all comes down to current perception of an OS as well as the "happiness factor" of those who are and have been using that OS already. My point of view is different and it's derived from the thinking of (for lacker of better words) ... OMG, MX Linux is so friggen out of this World wonderful, how can I get everyone else who's never had Linux before, especially inexperienced or people with older hardware, to use it?
To answer that question, everything on the screen would have to be kept as simple and automatic as possible.

Probably around 98% of the world didn't give a hoot about computing until Mac & Windows were there, showing everyone how things can be done with pretty little symbolic pictures and clickable points everywhere on the screen. I remember the first office suite that I used in the early 90s, and thinking instantly what a massive improvement that was over DOS based word perfect. Heck, even DEC and other companies followed suit by creating their own DEC Windows, Alpha, etc. Operating Systems. It's all about point n click prettiness ... combined with whatever work needs to be done, after the eyeballs have already been drawn in. That's how it works for most new or first time users anyway. So if you can get peoples eyes to light up because of how cool things look, followed by blowing people away by the easy partially automated installation process ... then the battle to win people over has already been mostly won. The remainder then simply becomes a matter of personal preference ... but at least the pot of general interest first been thoroughly stirred. That's a good thing !!!

I create my own individual help files anyway, so in the long run I suppose it doesn't matter what you do with the installation process as it first appears on the screen. I provide people with two different types of setups. Mint XFCE for newer machines with decent hardware (dual-core and better processors with 4 GB min. RAM), and MX Linux for older machines with 32bit or single core 64bit processors. The language thing with MX Linux only bothered me way after the fact, once I realized that there's a lot of translation left to do, even after I already changed the language settings. What's the point of changing those settings ... if they're not seamlessly & systemwide available afterwards? That's definitely an unexpected flaw, for which I offer my assistance if needed.
Sorry if I'm writing too much for some people. I believe in thoroughness and I don't like for things to be misunderstood.
PEACE

Its all good dude!

Back again, to report on the language thingie ...
Now mind you, as before I'm reporting from an inexperienced or first time user of Linux, point of view ...

I installed MX Linux 17.1 from USB image. As is fairly normal (methinks), my eyes are automatically drawn to the middle of the screen, waiting to see what will appear. After a few seconds the MX Linus screen appeared, with a large text block near the top, letting me be aware of the different options for continuing. It never even dawned on me to look beyond that. Screen appears ... here are your options ... have a nice day ... right in your face.
And that's exactly why it never even dawned on me to look at the bottom of the screen for language options.
No biggie. But that's why I think that the languages should be in your face right from the get-go.
Presumably most noobs and first time Linux users will react just as I did the very first time ...
... followed by ending up with a later language selection that won't translate everything properly, such as passwords, Firefox, Thunderbird, Keepassx, etc.

Out of curiosity, and just for a moment try to pretend that you're not a regular user or familiar with Linux. How would you feel if you came from Spain, France, Germany, or some other Country, installed MX Linux as I did (but without the luxury of knowing the English language fluently), only to end up with a system that's a mish mash of two different languages? Would this instill happiness & confidence in you, or would you be left scratching your head, wondering what kind of OS only offers half-baked language translations? How confident would you feel about working with such an OS, along with your limited English skills? Also keep in mind that the noob or first time user isn't installing MX Linux 1, 2, or 3. They're seeing 17.1 on the screen which would make most people believe that that's about as advanced as one can possibly hope for, right?
Anyway, just giving someone something to think about ...
PEACE

Moin.
I do think you raised a point. Albeit you could have just squeezed it to an one-liner request - but never mind. Perhaps alternative approach to convince dev-team might be to actually show how this could be achieved. As you said you do have years of experience with linux why not dive into the issue and propose a prototype. Remember you do have take into consideration not only the bios-related mx-boot menu but also the uefi-related one. I‘m sure as the dev team would much appreciate for showing them a migration path / prototype to a potentially increased usability of bios/uefi-mx-menu.
If you want to go this route I might to give you a helping hand.

Fresh eyes do see things diferently. Thank you for your observations.
I sometimes set up machines in Spanish, but I already know what I want.

After installing and reinstalling I understand the installer much better; although,
I just recently learned from reading in the forum, that the F8 Save key
on the startup screen is to actually save those things you have to reset otherwise,
at each boot. We often see but don't really read when we feel we know the answer,
since nothing bad ever happened from using it or not using it.

Problem remains, "How do we make people actually read what shows on the screen?"
I know because I'm one of them. Or better still, "How to design the screen so it can't
be ignored?"

That is a laudable goal to make the installation screens, idiot newbie user proof.
One of the first things I was told about Linux, by a computer science professor in the VeLUG,
a long time ago, was to read everything that shows on the screen before pressing Enter.
I'm sure I could have saved many a reinstall after trying out some new option or trick
that I read about, if I had kept that advice in mind.

I know the developers are considering changes to the installer; however, IMHO it is already
one of the best installers I have used in 20 years of learning and using Linux. Doesn't mean
it couldn't be better, just means that the developers and many of us users are accustomed
to it's idiosyncrasies and don't really see some things as a problem because we know the
answer from having run the installer repeatedly. And some of us are still learning.

We are a relatively small, active, forward-thinking distro. Our native language forums are small.
Perhaps this is one of the reasons. :) We welcome your participation.

Totally agree with this. I've installed MX four times now, MX16 and MX17.1 and I didn't know about the time-zone and language options, until I'd installed twice already.
One of these misses leading to a time-skew nightmare, with my Windows 7 install.

Now... making the bottom options larger. Changing the colours, to draw the eye. Moving them to the top-centre of the screen. A combination of these, would be all it takes.

Also... I had to wait for the ISO disc to fully boot, which took a while, because I didn't notice that there was a countdown happening while I was looking at the bottom options.
Removing this countdown, would be nice too. Its not really needed.

Apart from that, the Help option and info for the bottom choices is awsomely made! And easy to use. Maybe add an; "Is Windows installed on this machine?" question. With a choice to select (After language selection of course). And a choice of yes will select Hardware clock=Local. Maybe with an "Is your Bios clock time correct? (Don't worry if you don't understand the question. Ignore it if so.)" caveat.

Just to point out, we did more than consider the keyboard changes...we had already changed it before the OP made his original post, which reinforces the decision to move the keyboard selection. The changes just haven't made it to the users yet because we are waiting for...new translations!

So there you go.

BTW, please keep in mind that antiX, and by extension MX, are perfectly happy running from a live-USB full time. Which is a primary reason why we don't throw up windows and questions everytime we boot live Media. Unlike some other big-name linux distros, you can do much much more with antiX/MX live media than simply install the OS to a hard drive.

So much so that I don't bother installing antiX anymore, I just run off the live-USB full time. I even did a 2 hour linux live stream Saturday nite running off the antiX live stick! The hosts were suitably impressed when they asked if I had distro-hopped...nope, just me over hear running the antiX live system!

It does make us different from the big-boys. Different is good.

And I'm not poo-pooing any comments made in this thread. Its all food for thought. Thanks!

dolphin_oracle wrote:BTW, please keep in mind that antiX, and by extension MX, are perfectly happy running from a live-USB full time. Which is a primary reason why we don't throw up windows and questions everytime we boot live Media...

Good point. Cool, keep the improvements coming.

S._.A._.T._.U._.R._.D._.A._.Y._.nite .....
Opps, sorry, nite spelled without the 'gh' made me think of the Bay City Rollers. Aww, gee, I'm totally dating myself here ...
Alright, enough of that, just some first cup of Java humor in the morning. It'll normalize by cup 4 or 5.

Anyway, I have some ideas about the startup screen and was wondering if there's a way to make a screenshot of that screen ... or if someone can provide me with an at least 1024 pixel wide image of the start screen. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words and that would enable me to actually show you what I'm thinking about. And as far as translations are concerned, keep in mind that if you have a language file I can do the German part. I'd have it ready within 48 to 72 hours.

There are some other questions/concerns which I'll be bringing up in another thread, since they have nothing to do with this one. Thanks for all of your time and input.
PEACE

There is a screen shot tool included. It's in the menu or if your keyboard has one...PrtSc button.

Or are you talking about the boot menu? I think there are images in the manual.

All of our translation strings are on Transifex!

I think he means the screen where you land and have to press F3 for languages and such.

For the boot menu, I think this would work. You can set up a virtual machine as in VirtualBox and boot to MX. When the boot screen appears, use the arrow key to key down to the next entry. This will pause the boor process and you can take a screenshot using the screenshot tool on the host of the VM showing the boot screen.

linwinux wrote: ... if you have a language file I can do the German part. I'd have it ready within 48 to 72 hours.

Why not grab the latest MX-User Manual in English and provide a German translated version.
I'd volunteer to proof-read your translations.

Doing string translations within transifex is certainly a good starter for helping.
I've just registered 2 days ago to look around. Even double checking to find translation improvements
would be helpful. Have a look here to get started https://mxlinux.org/wiki/mx-translations-translator

Using virtualbox as proposed by @richb is a excellent way to take screen-shots from the boot-menu.
You would need to add the MX-Linux iso as a virtual CD/DVD-drive.
In addition to this. There is a "magic" setting within vbox:
Within virtualbox you can "switch" the system-properties between BIOS (the default) and EFI.
By this you could see and make screen-shots of both bios- and efi- boot-menu variations.

BTW - for the experts only - you can even have both efi and bios installations within one installation of MX in virtualbox, which I've verified a couple of times.
Howto: Install first in EFI mode. Within that booted efi-installation of MX-Linux
install bios-grub-menu "into" mbr ( perhabs check that bios-version of grub "grub-pc" is available/installed).
Now you can switch between bios and efi in virtualbox settings to see both variants of mx-boot menu.
Happy booting!

A lot of older machinex don't support EFI or in some cases only experimental flakey early versions of EFI. I have several HP 6730b laptops right now and they don't support EFI at all, even though the bios makes that claim. Ended up installing MX Linux 64bit with a DVD ... haven't had to resort to a DVD for quite some time. (LOL)
I'll be looking at that translation link sometime later this week ...
PEACE

linwinux wrote:A lot of older machinex don't support EFI or in some cases only experimental flakey early versions of EFI.

My rule of thumb: If you can avoid EFI do so.

linwinux wrote: Ended up installing MX Linux 64bit with a DVD ...

Elmar Hanlhofer tried to make the magic happen to boot from USB even when the BIOS is not prepared todo so.
https://www.plop.at/en/bootmanagers.html
So if you have a working USB-port you might find those comments here helpfull
viewtopic.php?f=92&t=44855#p443826
Have fun