MX Linux Forum

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:24 am**

I asked LinuxHelpGuy to review MX14.

http://youtu.be/cWA5F_W7GTM

I think he did a great job (looks like he reviewed 14.0 rather than 14.2 but no matter).

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:51 am**

hey, he gave me a shout out too! yay!

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:40 am**

dolphin_oracle wrote:hey, he gave me a shout out too! yay!

More than one! Well deserved.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:16 pm**

A seriously GREAT review vid!!
[aside: man, does he "dis" Puppy more than once once, or what?!]

What I like, is that he goes to the meat. Libre-office. . . The meta-installer. . . it's not a superficial review, it's a USER'S review.

I liked "They call it a mid-weight --I'd call it a light-weight" remark. I was running my wife's old ASUS 1015PE netbook on antiX for a few years. . . it was the only logical choice. Now she's on MX14 XFCE and loving it, with no performance loss!

Anticapitalista and his cadre in the MepCom seriously need to be VERY proud of MX14!

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:39 pm**

SilverBear wrote:
Anticapitalista and his cadre in the MepCom seriously need to be VERY proud of MX14!

And special mention to Jerry. Adrian, d_o, bitjam. and I am sure I left someone out.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:08 pm**

I just say all the devs. We should probably mention the early testers also. There were some insightful things brought up during early testing.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:32 am**

Brilliant review. I like when a professional does it, no talk about wallpaper choice, widget style and other irrelevant issues.

I'm also glad we spent time discussing and selecting what apps to put in the meta-installer (now mx-package-installer) it looks like he was impressed with the selection.

Some relevant quotes

:

Boots very very fast

I'm seriously impressed with this distribution

MX-14 will blow you out of the water

It works outstandingly well

And I missed a lot of other superlatives...

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:55 am**

I put this up on the MX review page, but had to take notes instead of just copying/pasting. Will insert a couple of yours as well. A video is not as easy as a text!

It was nice to see him get the package installer, although he seems to think we did all the packaging ourselves. It reminded me of the new user who posted here a few weeks ago that he just laughed the first time he used it.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:05 am**

Well, at least some of the packaging is done by our great community repo team.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:10 am**

True.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:06 am**

Adrian wrote:I like when a professional does it, no talk about wallpaper choice, widget style and other irrelevant issues.

For me, default appearances aren't worth a comment, except in those (rare) cases when I think things are exceptionally well done. Out-of-the-box "looks" matter a lot more to other people, though.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:16 am**

malspa wrote:
Adrian wrote:I like when a professional does it, no talk about wallpaper choice, widget style and other irrelevant issues.
For me, default appearances aren't worth a comment, except in those (rare) cases when I think things are exceptionally well done. Out-of-the-box "looks" matter a lot more to other people, though.

They do, but will not hold up without the "beef" to back it up. However, if you combine both you have a system people will be attracted to, and stay with.

In my opinion MX-14 has excellent MX tools, and thoughtfully put together package choices. And it looks pretty nice to me.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:10 pm**

I wonder if the text displayed during boot is a turn off to to some people. Someone recently reported that they showed a Linux newbie MX-14 and Mint. The newbie said they thought MX-14 was ugly. Maybe people immured in Windows subconsciously associate text with (the blue screen of) death.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:30 pm**

BitJam wrote:I wonder if the text displayed during boot is a turn off to to some people. Someone recently reported that they showed a Linux newbie MX-14 and Mint. The newbie said they thought MX-14 was ugly. Maybe people immured in Windows subconsciously associate text with (the blue screen of) death.

For the next release it might not be a bad idea to set up a bootsplash (Plymouth?) to cover the text. I'm not very familiar with that because I prefer the text, but I can see why some people would be intimidated by the scrolling text. For people who want to see the text there's always the option to disable the bootsplash or to press Esc to see the text.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:35 pm**

BitJam wrote:I wonder if the text displayed during boot is a turn off to to some people. Someone recently reported that they showed a Linux newbie MX-14 and Mint. The newbie said they thought MX-14 was ugly. Maybe people immured in Windows subconsciously associate text with (the blue screen of) death.

That was me. First impressions do count for non-techy people coming from proprietary OSes.

She looked at Mint Cinnamon, Mate, and MX14 on someone else's PC, said MX didn't look good, and that if Cinnamon does work well on her old PC (I should know within the next few days; I burned her a live DVD because her PC couldn't boot up from USB), she would much rather have that than MX14.

I told her MX was faster, more efficient, and was a highly competent and complete OS, but that didn't change her order of preference, which was Mint Cinnamon, Mint Mate, and lastly, MX14.

And yes, the verbose text during bootup was something totally unfamiliar and a bit alarming to her. She commented on it. Mint displays their logo in plymouth during bootup.

I do think Mint just has a more welcoming and familiar look to total newcomers.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:38 pm**

asqwerth wrote:I told her MX was faster, more efficient, and was a highly competent and complete OS, but that didn't change her order of preference, which was Mint Cinnamon, Mint Mate, and lastly, MX14.

This just makes me want to scream. Everything today is about style, not substance.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:53 pm**

asqwerth wrote:I told her MX was faster, more efficient, and was a highly competent and complete OS, but that didn't change her order of preference, which was Mint Cinnamon, Mint Mate, and lastly, MX14.

So make MX-14 look like Mint, add Plymouth, then remaster it.

Chris

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:03 pm**

Adrian wrote:
BitJam wrote:I wonder if the text displayed during boot is a turn off to to some people. Someone recently reported that they showed a Linux newbie MX-14 and Mint. The newbie said they thought MX-14 was ugly. Maybe people immured in Windows subconsciously associate text with (the blue screen of) death.
For the next release it might not be a bad idea to set up a bootsplash (Plymouth?) to cover the text. I'm not very familiar with that because I prefer the text, but I can see why some people would be intimidated by the scrolling text. For people who want to see the text there's always the option to disable the bootsplash or to press Esc to see the text.

You might be opening up a 'can of worms' if you add a bootsplash.

From what I recall with Mepis 11.0/12.0 with the plymouth splash, it would sometimes work differently depending on the video driver that was being used.

For instance I recall needing to use a 'vga=xxx' cheat when using the nvidia proprietary driver, to get the plymouth bootsplash to show up. The 'vga=xxx' cheat wasn't needed with the nouveau driver. Not sure but something similar might have also been necessary with the fglrx (proprietary) driver versus the radeon (opensource) driver. I also think the 'vga=xxx' cheat can cause problems with the intel driver.

I also recall there being some video artifact problems caused by the plymouth splash.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:07 pm**

Adrian wrote:For the next release it might not be a bad idea to set up a bootsplash (Plymouth?) to cover the text.

There are a couple of problems with this. We rely on the text to display error messages during the Live boot. Perhaps the problems have been beaten back enough that this is not as much of an issue. Starting with MX-14.2, we are also using the text in the early boot process for easy-persistence and easy-frugal installs. Part of why these are called "easy" is because they happen early in the boot process (well before X-windows is available) which allows things to get set up and ready to run on the very first boot. Even though LinuxHelpGuy was using MX-14 which doesn't rely on setting things up in the early boot process, these are part of the puppy-like features the reviewer liked so much.

Another issue is that Plymouth relies on KMS (modeset) video drivers. It won't work on systems that can't use those drivers. It also requires we put those drivers and other stuff into the live initrd which will add several meg to the size of the iso file. If we want to cater to older systems, Plymouth may not be ideal.

There is some program that got added late in the MX-14 release that spews text and empty lines to the boot screen. IMO we should really get this program to act more politely. It gives the appearance that something has gone wrong and it forces potentially useful text off of the screen.

We've added the old fbcondecor (fbsplash) system to antiX-14. We use it in verbose mode for displaying a background image *behind* the text. One difficulty with this is that it requires a kernel patch. AFAIK, it would not work with the kernels we use in MX-14. This is certainly not ideal either.

There have been plans to move control of the virtual consoles out of the kernel and into user space. That part of the kernel source tree was recently reorganized by Linus even though there were no changes in the code or functionality. If user space virtual consoles come to fruition then they might make a more ideal solution possible.

Another compromise might be to allow the early initrd text to stay on the screen but divert everything else and replace it with marching dots:

Code: Select all

The system is booting ..............

I really don't know if this would be worthwhile or if it would mollify people who are turned off by text.

chrispop99 wrote:So make MX-14 look like Mint, add Plymouth, then remaster it.

Plymouth usually goes into the initrd. Video drivers would need to be added to the initrd as well. A remaster would not do this for you.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:11 pm**

If the video card doesn't support Plymouth it will display the text, how are all the other distributions who use Plymouth dealing with the problems with described? I'm sure there's a solution, pretty much all major distributions use bootsplash.

EDIT: just saw the detailed explanation provided by BitJam. I guess we'll see if there's a better solution next year, since might change till then, the kernel might include what's needed by then.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:23 pm**

BitJam wrote:...There is some program that got added late in the MX-14 release that spews text and empty lines to the boot screen. IMO we should really get this program to act more politely. It gives the appearance that something has gone wrong and it forces potentially useful text off of the screen. ...

I don't think I've ever noticed that, any idea which program?

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:29 pm**

chrispop99 wrote:
asqwerth wrote:I told her MX was faster, more efficient, and was a highly competent and complete OS, but that didn't change her order of preference, which was Mint Cinnamon, Mint Mate, and lastly, MX14.
So make MX-14 look like Mint, add Plymouth, then remaster it.

Chris

Not that good at customisation, to be honest.

Not sure how, without pulling in cinnamon (and everything it comes with) which doesn't run on my machine. Is it even in the debian repos?

Mate, maybe, but not sure about the menu panel they use.

I can give her mint icons, maybe change the colour of the title bar, but it still wouldn't have the polish of mint.

I'm of the view that I should give her what she feels comfortable with. This is after all going to be her first Linux OS. Get her predisposed to Linux first, feel happy with the interface, feel happy using it.

Later on, who knows?

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:41 pm**

asqwerth wrote:I'm of the view that I should give her what she feels comfortable with. This is after all going to be her first Linux OS. Get her predisposed to Linux first, feel happy with the interface, feel happy using it.

Mint is a good choice for a new user. As good as MX is and as much as Xfce has improved, a klooless XP refugee needs as much handholding and pointy-clickity and soothing polish as possible. MEPIS used to be what I recommended and installed; now I go with Mint KDE for new converts.

That does not in any way reflect poorly on MX, and frankly, I don't think there's much point in wanting to make MX into something it's not.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:49 pm**

kmathern wrote:I don't think I've ever noticed that, any idea which program?

I think the program is modem-manager. I've attached a screenshot. I used vga=795 to get it all on the screen. I've also included a shot of what it looks like at the default resolution.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:42 pm**

uncle mark wrote:
asqwerth wrote:I'm of the view that I should give her what she feels comfortable with. This is after all going to be her first Linux OS. Get her predisposed to Linux first, feel happy with the interface, feel happy using it.
Mint is a good choice for a new user. As good as MX is and as much as Xfce has improved, a klooless XP refugee needs as much handholding and pointy-clickity and soothing polish as possible. MEPIS used to be what I recommended and installed; now I go with Mint KDE for new converts.

That does not in any way reflect poorly on MX, and frankly, I don't think there's much point in wanting to make MX into something it's not.

Good point, Unk. [WARNING! Rambling Reply to follow:]

I need to admit up front-- I've never tried Mint! :lipsrsealed: Never needed to, never wanted to --except out of curiosity. . . but then I didn't have the time/energy. I DO strongly agree that there needs to be a Linux distro that does what you say! But I'm personally (a bit) averse to "Ubuntu derivatives" (for reasons we can put on pause for now). BUT I do not deny the usefulness of Mint or any other distro on that basis. One of the "solidest" guys in our local Western New York LUG is a big user-community supporter of ArtistX, which is Ubuntu-derived. People will --and they need to-- go with what works for them.

I think there is a basic problem --NOT insurmountable-- between those of us who like & use GNU/Linux because of what it is, and what it can be. . . and the many MS-Windows refugees who need a computer as easy to use as a toaster or a TV.

It may sound like I'm being "judgmental" here, but I am! I'd started doing computer repairs, rebuilds and custom builds in 2000, and discovered Linux (Ubuntu) in 2005. Followed by Mepis 3.something, and a whole host of other distros. Frankly, in the 2005-2009 era, I did not try to steer any of my HW clients to Linux away from MS-Win. I saw GREAT Linux opportunities for me. I signed up as a whole-hearted Mepis Man, and I gave what I could to the Mepis community. That's why I asked Warren for permission to register this domain as "MepisCommunity.org." To me, it's all about communal effort to raise us all up to a better place.

But. . . I guess that's my (rambling) point: There are people looking for INVOLVEMENT, but also people who just need an internet machine or whatever else that "just works."

I'm an old git --and I've got fam younger, and IMO probably IQ-smarter, than me who are in that latter category. It IS a valid choice. Just like many people (most women!!!

) who drive a car don't want to know how to shift gears, or understand what gear-ratios are, or know how to tune up an engine ( I can't even do that anymore with computer-controlled ignition!). . . well, not everybody who goes online, or who edits and prints a document . . . also wants to delve into (what is to me) the juicy details of computer science.

I'm making this point intentionally "sexist" to point out the bias that many of us "long-time Linux" people have. It was the same for those of us learning to drive in the 60's and early 70's: only a "girl" would want/need an automatic transmission! GUYS wanted the precision control of a GEAR-SHIFT!
I've heard that in Europe --until recently, anyway-- that attitude is still true. Only "old people" drive automatic transmissions. REAL drivers of both sexes drive manual transmissions (please correct me if I'm out of date!!). But do we want to impose our own life-styles on others?

My point is that JUST BECAUSE I'M a manual-transmission kind of person, does not blind me to the fact that there are automatic-transmission people deserving of personal transport!

Last personal indication on the issue: my daughter graduated from a private University, Summa Cum Laude ( Not Ivy League). . . her husband graduate Summa Cum Laude from an Ivy League U. And then a Masters. I've got no degrees except a 3rd Degree from my local Blue Lodge (if you get it, you get it, if not, nevermind). I may like to entertain the notion that I'm wiser than they are. . . but smarter? Doubtful. But they are both busy professional people who don't want to take the time to calculate the stress of the roof on their ground floor nor the stress of their ground floor on the foundation. They just want to live in a house that works. Likewise cars. Likewise computers.

I'm an old enough fossil to live in the moral shadow of Gandhi (he was killed before I was born). His "swa-raj" ideas influenced my generation. "If you use it, you should be able to make it." There's more to the political/moral idea of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaraj than just that, but it's a concept that has a time and place. And it's NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A STRAIGHT-JACKET for everyone, at all times.

Personally, I've been heavily into slackware over the past year or so. I'd need caffeine to do Gentoo (and I'm woking on it!), but I'm sworn off coffee because of Insomnia Issues! WHAT'S A BEAR TO DO??

You see: most people don't have the time/energy to do what some of us do. So" Linux Mint? OK! Whatever!

Personally, I'm having a lot of fun (where "fun" = energy to screw around) customizing MX-14! I've got a crazy notion to remaster an MX-14 with KDE and a few Bear Tweaks and say : "It's the Real Mepis 14." But I don't have the energy to even finish revising SBlinux.org so far, so that's up to you all. But IMO, MX-14 IS where it's at for the Mepis Community.

It may not be a toaster/TV distro, but IMO MX-14 is so useable "out of the box" and so customizable, that I'm losing interest in Slackware and enjoying MX-14 tinkering.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:01 pm**

New converts need a turnkey OS OOTB. Mepis has in the past done that pretty well. MX14 does it. And I'd add antiX 13.2 does also.
So if someone needs or wants an OS that appeals to them on first impression, then there are choices available. Having them boot a few operating systems is as good a way as any to get them in the fold. MX14 will attract some (without changing anything) that will stay with it. Mainly because of being so usable.

If you think anyone is going to be worried about the bootup being filled with text then just hit the power button on the monitor. Tell them it's to show them how easy/fast it is to bootup.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:57 pm**

Give the newbies LinuxMint-Xfce-17-LTS.
After they've used that for a couple of years,
let them try Mx-14.
The difference will astound them.

I like MX-14 because it just is.
It doesn't try to be something it isn't.
And it has all these great utilities.
The newbies don't know they need them yet.

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:25 am**

SilverBear wrote:
I think there is a basic problem --NOT insurmountable-- between those of us who like & use GNU/Linux because of what it is, and what it can be. . . and the many MS-Windows refugees who need a computer as easy to use as a toaster or a TV.

I'm an old git , I'm an old enough fossil to live in the moral shadow of Gandhi (he was killed before I was born).

I'll agree whole heartedly on the basic problem. A part of it is that most of the advertised computer "experts" (read: retailers) know nothing except MS. Most computer users go to them for advice and accept it as gospel. I know of some who advise strongly against Linux
because of their ignorance

Do not agree about the fossil. Was in my 18th year when Ghandi departed this earth. You have a bit of catching up to do.

Gordon.

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:27 am**

Richard wrote:Give the newbies LinuxMint-Xfce-17-LTS.
After they've used that for a couple of years,
let them try Mx-14.

2 Years? How about 3 months maximum?

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:28 am**

uncle mark wrote: .... now I go with Mint KDE for new converts.

That does not in any way reflect poorly on MX, and frankly, I don't think there's much point in wanting to make MX into something it's not.

I agree that we should not try to make MX into what it's not. It's so fast and efficient precisely because the CPU/graphics resources are not being expended on too much eye candy.

When newbies get more comfortable with Linux, they may at that point wish to delve deeper into Linux, find out how to make it faster, etc.

When I showed Mint Cinnamon live to the newbie on someone else's PC (Cinnamon does not work on my computer), I have to admit it looked pretty impressive. I can see why she would choose it. However, she's just told me Mint Cinnamon isn't really working on her machine. Probably means that like mine, her graphics card is not capable enough.

So looks like it's Mint Mate. That's fine by me, so long as it gets her away from her XP installation, which is in a mess and really bogged down.

However, I think I'll install both MX and Mint for her. Maybe if she does click on MX and sees how much faster it boots up and runs, she'll change her mind.

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:36 pm**

asqwerth wrote:So looks like it's Mint Mate. That's fine by me, so long as it gets her away from her XP installation, which is in a mess and really bogged down.

Excellent point! It is good to keep this in perspective. Which Linux distro they choose is fine tuning.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:12 am**

Gordon Cooper wrote:
Richard wrote:Give the newbies LinuxMint-Xfce-17-LTS.
After they've used that for a couple of years,
let them try Mx-14.
2 Years? How about 3 months maximum?

:) Maybe I was just a slow learner.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:30 am**

At one point in my life I was a programmer fluent in a number of languages, including C and x86 assembler, and I knew my way around the nooks and crannies of computer hardware. Now I am just a user that wants my computer to do the things I want to do with as little manual intervention as possible - as I suspect many folks are. Is it criminal or am I a bad person for wanting things to work out of the box? Many distros require a lot of fiddling to get even basic things working - I will never bother with Slackware or Arch simply because I am a user not a developer anymore.

In reality, MX-14 does a very good job at being what it is and it works as well OOTB as any distro I've used. Is it a polished and pretty as Mint, nope, but it can be made pretty without a lot of effort. It is powering my wife's computer and has been for several months which is a testament to how well it works. While I don't post here much, I read the forum daily and I have recommended MX-14 to many noobs on other Linux sites - it is a good product.

My 2 cents is don't try to please everyone because you can't. At some point I'd like to see a 64 bit version and maybe even a version which exceeds the CD size limit as this is 2014 and the CD size limitation really is a huge factor in terms of software selection for the base install. Anyway, my input...

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:44 am**

NGIB wrote:My 2 cents is don't try to please everyone because you can't. At some point I'd like to see a 64 bit version and maybe even a version which exceeds the CD size limit as this is 2014 and the CD size limitation really is a huge factor in terms of software selection for the base install.

I agree, 100%.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:26 pm**

Well, actually, on the boxes that I have to maintain,
I install MX-14. My wife has MX-14 and she's happy with it.
The last time I asked her which distro she had, she just said Linux.
It looks pretty much the same as when I installed Manjaro,
LinuxMint, SalineOS, Peppermint, sidux & WindowsXP for her.
So long as it works for what she wants, she really
doesn't care what's underneath. Only when it doesn't work. :)

I pretty much agree with malspa, NGIB, asqwerth, and others.
So long as someone else maintains it,
there is really not a problem for most users.

I like 32 bit distros.
I used 8 bit, then 16 bit software until it was untenable.
Nothing I use requires 64 bit.
Probably just me and resistance to change.

Posted: **Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:34 am**

Just to let everyone know LinuxHelpGuy will be doing a youtube series on MX14. Here is the intro video:
http://youtu.be/-RnhfbISpPA

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