MX Linux Forum

Guess I could've contributed to another ongoing thread but don't want to break into its cosiness but have just come upon MX-14 whilst looking at an unrelated thread and thought I'd investigate.

In particular. I was intrigued by two features close to my heart - Persistence and Remastering. Persistence offers the possibility of creating a useful rescue system (as Puppy can be) and also a customised install directly from usb. Of course, Remastering also offers the means to creating a customised iso after an initial install.

1> First of all hardware.

I'm happy to report that graphics support in MX-14 works flawlessly, including compositing, across my five machines without even the need for cheatcodes! These consist of Intel Mobile 4 GMA 4500M on the Tosh laptop, ATI Radeon X1200 on the netbook, ATI Radeon 9250, ATI Radeon 9550 and nVidia 6200 LE on the desktops (all old stuff!).

Similarly wifi n/w connects without a hitch.

From my perspective these two features are crucial.

Sound is rather more problematical with weak sound on the laptop and netbook and none at all on two desktops (CMedia CM6501) with error warnings generated. Oddly, when trying to play sound files vlc is usually launched but on one occasion clementine was the default.

Printing is also proving problematical and localhost:631 "server refused the connection"! Perhaps not enough of Cups is included by default? Hplip also failed although it did see my wifi printer it complained about not finding ppd.

2> However, so far no joy with Persistence. There seems to be two possibilities offered for setting this up - Grub menu options and a desktop dialogue but am not sure whether these are independent methods or inter-related with the necessity to use both? First of all tried the desktop dialogue which seemed to take me round in circles but nevertheless rootfs and homefs have been created. Yet they are obviously not being utilised as I have achieved no level of persistence whatsoever. Next tried the grub offerings but all I get is a (persistent!) nagging to change the root password to something more secure. I have searched for information on setting it up but so far have drawn a blank.

3> Xfce is my favourite wm, especially when used in conjunction with Compiz and Screenlets. The latter always works impeccably with xfce (and Mepis 8/11 kde) but although available and installed (appears in menu) it fails to launch. This is often because dbus-x11 isn't installed but it is, though "screenlets-pack-all" and "screenlets-pack-basic" are not available even after enabling testrepo and reload? Compiz is only offered as one limited entry (compiz-fusion-bcop) in Synaptic with no plugins, fusion icon etc offered?

4> As a further observation but in common with almost all distros, why is there more than one type of password dialogue. Although just a niggle, one would expect a consistent appearance. After all, it is just a simple function that needs to return just one boolean value regardless of the caller electing to use decoration/theme that doesn't conform to the general appearance of other windows. Isn't there a standard function available as part of the common libraries?

5> Is there an intention to include a splash screen as a cosmetic between grub and desktop? However, boots and shuts down impressively quickly (though, for some strange reason, required me to press enter to complete shutdown on one machine) and is credibly responsive running from usb. Interesting to see a graphical grub menu rather than the severely text one when unebootin has been used!

What version of MX-14 are you looking at?

A few responses on the minor stuff:

Splash screen: Settings Manager > Session and Startup > Splash tab.
If you are on a Live medium, as it sounds, then I not sure how CUPS printer setup will work
Sound: right-click the speaker icon > Open Mixer and see if that helps
Compiz: this is aimed at a CD limit, so there is a lot of stuff that can't be offered by default

Not sure if you saw that there is a whole thread on persistence on MX-14 which you can find with a search.

TenderFoot wrote:However, so far no joy with Persistence. There seems to be two possibilities offered for setting this up - Grub menu options and a desktop dialogue but am not sure whether these are independent methods or inter-related with the necessity to use both? First of all tried the desktop dialogue which seemed to take me round in circles but nevertheless rootfs and homefs have been created. Yet they are obviously not being utilised as I have achieved no level of persistence whatsoever. Next tried the grub offerings but all I get is a (persistent!) nagging to change the root password to something more secure. I have searched for information on setting it up but so far have drawn a blank.

You almost got it. You first have create persistence files via the desktop dialog. Then on the next boot, select one of the persistence options from the main bootloader menu.

The nag screen to create new root and demo passwords should only appear once as long as you change the passwords AND you save root persistence back to disk. There should also have been a screen to set up how you want root persistence to be saved. If you just turn off your computer then the changes won't be saved. I realize being forced to change the passwords is a big pain but it would have been unconscionable to let you run a persistent system with passwords that are public knowledge. For a LiveCD, publicly known passwords are acceptable since it is very hard to infect a LiveCD but a persistent system is just as vulnerable as an installed system.

I highly recommend this video by Dolphin Oracle: AntiX 13 - Persistent LiveUSB. Even thought it's antiX and not MX, the steps are all the same.

Jerry3904

Yes, I should have said that it is MX-14 RC2.

Splash - OK that could be set up if installed and/or Persistence is established.

Yes - live media (usb) and so as above.

Sound - already tried that but still weak. With the desktops it is h/w issue reported.

Compiz - but it should still be fully available in Synaptic.

Persistence - I'll do a further search!

BitJam

I'll follow up your advice (after my bath and a pint!) but with regard to root password, I've never been nagged/insisted before - though occasionally warned of it's weakness. Are you suggesting that a linux system can be easily hacked by malevolent external forces?

TenderFoot wrote:Yes - live media (usb) and so as above.

I had CUPS not work live, then work installed. Similar error message to yours.

TenderFoot wrote:I'll follow up your advice (after my bath and a pint!) but with regard to root password, I've never been nagged/insisted before - though occasionally warned of it's weakness. Are you suggesting that a linux system can be easily hacked by malevolent external forces?

Good question. When you install Linux, you are forced to provide new passwords. I don't think what we are doing is much different except it happens during a time when you don't expect it. You can think of enabling root persistence as a very very quick install (or you can think of installation as just another form of persistence ). I think the big problem is that if people don't get to the step of saving persistence then they will be faced with the password screen again the next time they boot which gets very annoying very quickly. Perhaps we could automatically run persist-save shortly after a persistence system has been booted for the first time. This might help reduce the problem of seeing the password screen multiple times.

The problem is not just that the default passwords on the LiveCD are simple and easy to crack, they have been made public so they are not secret. Keeping the root password secret is one of the main lines of defense in keeping a Linux system secured. If you insist on using a well-known and well-advertised root password then I would say yes, in those circumstances a linux system is easily cracked. To put this in perspective, if an exploit were announced that made the root password public then it would be a BIG DEAL. It would make headlines (at least on Slashdot) and there would be a mad scramble to make a fix and push it out to users ASAP.

I agree that the password screen is a giant pain in the neck. I hate it. But It would be extremely negligent for us to create a situation where a bunch of Linux systems in the field were all using the same, well-known, root password.

TenderFoot wrote:...Compiz - but it should still be fully available in Synaptic. ...

Almost all of the compiz packages were removed from Wheezy in June of 2012 when Wheezy was still "testing".

The bugreport explaining the reasons for it's removal (and followups complaining about it's removal) can be found here: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo ... bug=677864.

You can add a snapshot.debian.org repo to install compiz, I posted some instructions in a post on the debian forum here: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=511972#p511972

I think those instructions have worked for some people, but I would consider using compiz on MX or Wheezy as unsupported.

Sound is rather more problematical with weak sound on the laptop and netbook and none at all on two desktops (CMedia CM6501) with error warnings generated. Oddly, when trying to play sound files vlc is usually launched but on one occasion clementine was the default.

What sound files launched vlc?

This is often because dbus-x11 isn't installed

dbus-x11 is installed on MX-14

5> Is there an intention to include a splash screen as a cosmetic between grub and desktop? However, boots and shuts down impressively quickly (though, for some strange reason, required me to press enter to complete shutdown on one machine) and is credibly responsive running from usb. Interesting to see a graphical grub menu rather than the severely text one when unebootin has been used!

No there isn't any intention to include a boot splash screen.

Thanks for everyone's input here and will study all the info and links carefully.

Just to clarify one point (anticapitalista), my observation re screenlets was

This is often because dbus-x11 isn't installed but it is

so we're agreed!

In the meantime, I'm just wondering, once I come to terms with all this, my (simple) goal is achievable. That is that when I have a live media (usb) as I like with appearance and apps, such modifications are included with subsequent deployments from it to hdd partition on my machines and whether an iso of my customised version can be created either from the live media or from an installed version. It would be rather insecure (in a different way!) to rely on the usb as the only "backup"! Alternatively, whether an installed version can be remastered in which case the persistence, per ce, becomes irrelevant...

EDIT

What sound files launched vlc?

wav (but I'll re-check).

TenderFoot wrote:... when I have a live media (usb) as I like with appearance and apps, such modifications are included with subsequent deployments from it to hdd partition on my machines and whether an iso of my customised version can be created either from the live media or from an installed version. It would be rather insecure (in a different way!) to rely on the usb as the only "backup"! Alternatively, whether an installed version can be remastered in which case the persistence, per ce, becomes irrelevant...

Yes to almost all of the above. If you use root-persistence or remaster-live (from the RemasterCC) then changes you have made will be transferred to the hdd when you do an install. In fact, this should happen even if you don't use persistence or remaster.

I believe you can already make a backup and an iso of an installed system using the snapshot utility. There is no GUI program (yet) to make an iso from a remastered LiveUSB but it is a single command on the command line. We should probably add a GUI wrapper to it.

The "splash screen" between GRUB and the lightdm login would be provided by plymouth. You can install it and at least one plymouth theme from synaptic, and add "splash" to the GRUB boot command.

Unfortunately, all there are in Synaptic are some Debian themes. Ubuntu themes will not work. I have an earth-sunrise theme deb that'll work--maybe eventually we'll make an MX theme?

Thanks. Had to fiddle a bit to get a splash in Mint recently. Anyway, installed plymouth + plymouth-themes-all, rebooted then edited what I perceived to be the appropriate line (a bit more complicated for grub2 than grub!) and added "splash" after "quiet". The result was a sort of broken progress bar across the usual text output - not very satisfactory! Nor does there seem to be a way of selecting the splash so think a bit more research/editing may be necessary. The identically name splash available in Settings > Session and Strartup refers, of course, to the xfce one which shows the loading of its own components.

I quite like the splash and progress bar used in Mepis 8/11 startup and shutdown which seems to be a genuine indication rather than the oscillating or rotating ones (animated gif images?) now favoured by most distros which seem to be independent of what's actually happening - if anything! Anyway, have located earth_sunrise_1.0_all.deb - will that do?

I should. perhaps, add that my above experiments with splash are in an installed version of MX not the liveusb - neither of which I mind testing to breaking point at this time!

Referring back to OP:

Audio is now sorted on the two desktops. For whatever reason, most distros seem to default to the tv card as the sound device rather than PnP Audio .

Printing. Adding a couple of cups modules has made localhost:631 available but choosing manage printers wouldn't load. HPlip toolbox discovers the 5510e ok but then fails to communicate with it (error 5012). Looking at the error log indicates a problem with avahi so installed avahi-utils - which I know is a dependency - but still no joy. However coincidentally(?) it unstuck manage printers so now have one n/w printer sorted - almost. But on a broader point, I wonder why cups is not more complete by default in MX - xfce is more compact than kde3 (isn't it) yet M8 is more complete but will fit a cd?

Persistence. Had another go at booting the liveusb with Static Root + Home but failed complaining of corrupt rootfs but suspect this may be a consequence of aborting during the earlier mentioned password/security demands so will have to re-unetbootin and start again! Alternatively could I just recreate the rootfs?

As an additional thought, xfce usually has a couple of hidden files - gtkrc-2.0 and gtkrc-xfce - in the home folder and which can be edited to tweak some aspects of the desktop. Copied them from another xfce install and all is well! With the exception that, on reboot, the icons are partly hidden behind the panel but easily adjusted - so yes. at least home persistence is now working!

I would also add that I'm acting as a sort of "devils advocate" in this thread on behalf of those (like me!) who prefer things to work OOTB with a nice Gui for utilities and tweaks to hide the gory details of cli functions and there myriad switches which you gurus are so comfortable with! To labour a well worn analogy (or is it metaphor?), we don't need to know how a car works to drive it, with maintenance left to the experts - insofar a modern car can be maintained by us anyway, beyond basic housekeeping! No longer do we have to resort to the ubiquitous Haynes self-maintainer "bibles" to dismantle our vehicle with its wonderful final one line instruction "assembly is the reverse of dismantling" - which it rarely was!

And talking of documentation , reading the discussion in another thread, linux documentation is usually either barely existent or more often over complicated and/or technical - useful only to a guru who probably doesn't need it anyway. How about a "Documentation for Dummies" policy? Most of us lesser mortals would appreciate simple , perhaps briefly commented, step-by-step guides to achieve a goal. This may be accompanied by a more in-depth description of the processes so that we could develop our own understanding. If cli is involved then an expansion of the purpose and meaning of the various switches - for the aforesaid dummies!

[This may develop into a sort of (b)log - though with a positive motive - but will try to stick to the original queries, and if I forget to thank somebody, please take it as read!]

And talking of documentation , reading the discussion in another thread, linux documentation is usually either barely existent or more often over complicated and/or technical - useful only to a guru who probably doesn't need it anyway. How about a "Documentation for Dummies" policy? Most of us lesser mortals would appreciate simple , perhaps briefly commented, step-by-step guides to achieve a goal. This may be accompanied by a more in-depth description of the processes so that we could develop our own understanding. If cli is involved then an expansion of the purpose and meaning of the various switches - for the aforesaid dummies!

Hmmm. This raises 2 quesions for me: 1) looking at your statement that i highlighted above: have you actually looked at the documentation for MX-14? 2) somebody has to write documentation: are you volunteering?

In a group where the small number of people doing development are all volunteers, simply complaining goes nowhere. This is a community: if you see a problem, create the solution!

I wasn't having a pop at MX - it is a generalised comment about linux documentation! Mepis manuals and wiki are second to none and am simply endorsing the desire for documentation for "the rest of us".

I haven't found a specific MX manual yet though have seen the video and looked at antiX wiki. I was also looking at the thread in which BitJam gave a very full description of persistence and other contributors' suggestions for it inclusion in a/the manual. Anticapitlista also provides a nice simple guide as OP to same thread http://forum.mepiscommunity.org/viewtop ... 91&t=35481

If I were so knowledgeable then perhaps I would accept the challenge but if that were the case this thread wouldn't have started. Nevertheless, my comment was intended as positive not negative. However, if I learn to tame all aspects of persistence and then perhaps have a go from the perspective of a dummy...!

TenderFoot wrote:... if I learn to tame all aspects of persistence and then perhaps have a go from the perspective of a dummy...!

Or from the perspective of someone just learning it. And you certainly don't need to tame all aspects before your input becomes useful. We already have people who know all the aspects. I think that knowledge gets in the way of them explaining it to beginners.

One trick that will help you convert your learning into blazing a path for others is to take copious notes. Record your experience. Perhaps even do a video screen capture but that won't replace your notes. You might come up with some ideas for changes that would make things easier and more intuitive for beginners. At the least you can probably create a simple how-to for other beginners.

You might think you have very little to offer because you are coming from the perspective of a beginner. But as you have seen and made clear, we need someone with that perspective to explain it to other beginners. Once you have mastered all the aspects it may be too late! Just the record of your experience could be useful even if you don't convert it into documentation.

TenderFoot wrote:I haven't found a specific MX manual yet...

Try the large question mark in the panel.

Also the MX Docs tab on our Home Page. TBH, I couldn't find the docs either the first time I looked.

BitJam wrote:Also the MX Docs tab on our Home Page. TBH, I couldn't find the docs either the first time I looked.

Also as Help in the Start menu

re - printing. Did you use the meta-installer to install the HP printing applications? Is including avahi-utils on the cd enough (at least for hp printing)? What other modules did you install (you mentioned some cups modules, but didn''t say which ones)?

TenderFoot wrote:Thanks. Had to fiddle a bit to get a splash in Mint recently. Anyway, installed plymouth + plymouth-themes-all, rebooted then edited what I perceived to be the appropriate line (a bit more complicated for grub2 than grub!) and added "splash" after "quiet". The result was a sort of broken progress bar across the usual text output - not very satisfactory! Nor does there seem to be a way of select...

hi again,

concerning plymouth... found a couple of nice links > here and an older one here. compiz is pretty easy if you follow the excellent howto in my sig (spoonfed) i use with xfce and kde currently, and will probably try to set it up live.
easy...

ps i link you are going to enjoy the earth sunrise theme when you get it working .

pps running with live persistence now and it works really swell. xfce only (i killed kde/started over) and using root persistence, although i did set up home persistence using live-usb for later/i guess.

loco wrote: compiz is pretty easy if you follow the excellent howto in my sig ;) (spoonfed) i use with xfce and kde currently, and will probably try to set it up live.

@Tenderfoot, for compiz I recommend using the instructions here: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=511972#p511972 instead of the"spoonfed" link in loco's signature.

They are both posts I made at the Debian Forum.

The instructions in the post that loco linked to use a sid snapshot repo. I wrote the instructions using the sid snapshot before I realized that the same thing could be done with a Wheezy snapshot repo. For MX or Wheezy I think it's safer to use the Wheezy snapshot repo.

Once again thanks for all the input - I'll try to respond (more or less in reverse order)...

kmathern - followed links but not sure what "snapshots" are or how to implement them. If I select a date what do I do with the contents? Or do I just need to copy/paste the code lines?

Stevo and Loco - searched for earth-sunrise and liked the images so downloaded earth_sunrise_1.0_all.deb from gnome-look.org. Can I not just install from that or should I follow the cli route? BTW is the Moon animated to indicate progress - I note that in one of the links kmathern was discussing combining it with the Mepis progress bar?

anticapitalista - no, I couldn't locate the meta-package-installer at the time so used Synaptic then had HPlip try to diagnose itself (I've saved some of the output). However, I've tried the meta-package on this (now fully persistent!) liveusb with the same result - and avahi-utils has again not been installed! With regard to the cups modules, sorry can't remember (must keep notes!) but interestingly cups is working ok here without adding anything.

BitJam, Gear Boy, and Jerry - thanks for the links to the current documentation! However, I think it's a little light on Persistence guidance for those of used unetbootin - in particular "The Fnal Step"! It may be that simple if one used antix2usb but it sure wasn't for me. rootfs and homefs have to be created with RemasterCC which can be convoluted and then on reboot select the appropriate item in boot menu - and then the password business. And doubt whether I could get repeat the process without further practice!

As a final "off piste" question - from browsing the documentation (yes I do!), I get the impression that Remaster does not create an iso image from a hdd install but sort of "fixes" (back into into a single linuxfs) a persistent liveusb and is that a necessary step to install our customised live media to hdd?

TenderFoot wrote:I get the impression that Remaster does not create an iso image from a hdd install

This is true of the Live remaster.

[It] sort of "fixes" (back into into a single linuxfs) a persistent liveusb and is that a necessary step to install our customised live media to hdd?

A live-remaster is not required to install customized live media to hdd. Nor is root persistence. If you boot a LiveCD, install packages and then do an install, those packages will get put on the hdd. IOW, whatever root file system you see on your live media is what will get installed. As for the first part of the question, yes you can think of a live-remaster as fixating file system changes. In some of the incomplete and more technical documentation I made the analogy:

If root persistence is like using a piton while climbing up a cliff, [live] remastering is more like setting up a camp or bivouac site.

Again, you don't need root persistence enabled in order to remaster-live. If the live-remaster were "free" (if it was very very fast and didn't consume many resources) then there would be no need for root persistence. We would just do a live-remaster every time you wanted to save filesystem changes.

BitJam, Thanks for the link to the video about persistence. I've finally got it working.

TenderFoot wrote:Once again thanks for all the input - I'll try to respond (more or less in reverse order)...

kmathern - followed links but not sure what "snapshots" are or how to implement them. If I select a date what do I do with the contents? Or do I just need to copy/paste the code lines?

Stevo and Loco - searched for earth-sunrise and liked the images so downloaded earth_sunrise_1.0_all.deb from gnome-look.org. Can I not just install from that or should I follow the cli route? BTW is the Moon animated to indicate progress - I note that in one of the links kmathern was discussing combining it with the Mepis progress bar?

anticapitalista - no, I couldn't locate the meta-package-installer at the time so used Synaptic then had HPlip try to diagnose itself (I've saved some of the output). However, I've tried the meta-package on this (now fully persistent!) liveusb with the same result - and avahi-utils has again not been installed! With regard to the cups modules, sorry can't remember (must keep notes!) but interestingly cups is working ok here without adding anything.

BitJam, Gear Boy, and Jerry - thanks for the links to the current documentation! However, I think it's a little light on Persistence guidance for those of used unetbootin - in particular "The Fnal Step"! It may be that simple if one used antix2usb but it sure wasn't for me. rootfs and homefs have to be created with RemasterCC which can be convoluted and then on reboot select the appropriate item in boot menu - and then the password business. And doubt whether I could get repeat the process without further practice!

As a final "off piste" question - from browsing the documentation (yes I do!), I get the impression that Remaster does not create an iso image from a hdd install but sort of "fixes" (back into into a single linuxfs) a persistent liveusb and is that a necessary step to install our customised live media to hdd?

The plymouth theme packages for Ubuntu won't work with MEPIS or Debian, since they install the files in a different place. I guess I should upload it into the CR...to choose a plymouth theme, you have to run some commands in the terminal, though I also have an EZ-Switch GUI package that I should upload to do that.
Here's packages I did I while ago, but they will install and work in M11 or M12:

http://ubuntuone.com/7KjcijzXJIjCtyhsz6SZAd

EZswitch should show up in the Settings section of the menu.

Stevo - installed plymouth themes and EZSwitch using deb packages from your zip file with no errors reported when downloading dependencies. Was that correct?

Ran EZSwitch from menu and selected earth-sunrise but it just reports "theme not changed" - and it isn't. You mention M11 and M12 but this is MX-14 RC2?

I'll experiment with MX and plymouth. Are you saying you still have the bars at the bottom of the screen instead of the the sunrise theme?

Stevo - sorry gone so long (pressing personal business)!

As I say no change. No sunrise. No bars at the bottom of screen or anywhere else (but, of course M8 and M11 are fine with the default splash and progress).

Is this on a real install, or a virtual machine or persistent Live install?

The initial trial was on persistent liveusb.

Have now tried on a full (updated) install. This time had more to choose from - ie not just earth-sunrise - and choice seems to be accepted. However, after reboot still no earth-sunrise or solar. Back in EZswitch, nothing seems to be selected but assume this is a bug in the dialogue as choosing a new splash is accepted but selecting the same one invokes the "no changes made" message. Either way, still no splash (other than the xfce one which I tried out of interest and only appears late in the boot process).