MX Linux Forum

My queries are in response to a recent post:

https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p794508

Given the recent issues necessitating the use of Cloudflare (CF), the "Dark Reader" browser extension for Firefox (FF) stopped working on the Forum, and Midnight Lizard was recommended. I REALLY enjoy the Lizard!

However, the post listed at the top warns that Midnight Lizard uses 3rd-party data collection.

So, my question is: How concerned should I be about any 3rd-party data collection?
I know that this is a very loaded question, and depends on my individual circumstances.
So, here's a brief summary of my situation:

0. I just don't like the idea of someone collecting my data.
1. Nothing to hide, and not a state-sponsored whatever
2. No Social Media footprint, except for the occasional Discord programming servers (sites).
---> No Social Media, just 'cause I prefer human interaction, and have a negative bias as to how I think it has changed society. Yeah, grumpy old-ish man mourning his lost youth, etc., etc., etc.
3. In general, I want to avoid any of my data being collected, so I use:
uBlock Origin, Facebook Container, Privacy Badger, Express VPN, & Bitwarden
4. But then again, I do use Google (Gmail). So, I'm probably a gonner in terms of my data being collected!

So, if I don't worry about Google collecting my data (and I do, but have yet to make the switch)-- should I be worried about Midnight Lizard's 3rd-party data collection?

I know this is a HUGE topic, and all those things I installed are probably overkill, or maybe won't matter anyway, now that Google probably pwns me (Yes, "pwn"; pun, intended!).

I really am enjoying the Midnight Lizard, and welcome any advice/opinions about what people think about using it (or any other app/service/whatever) that has 3rd party data collection.

OK, can-of-worms opened, and I have prepared myself for the onslaught

FullScale4Me wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 2:17 pm

jj 5117 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:24 am @operadude
@Eadwine Rose

Hi Folks:
Just a friendly mention.
The https://midnight-lizard.org/ site does say that there is 3rd party data collection with the add-on.
Thanks all.

I use Firefox across 4 machines all with Sync enabled. I only view this forum on my phone AND one of those PCs. Thus my daily driver PC is excluded from running Midnight Lizard.

In the Firefox Setting Sync tab I unchecked 'Addons' and 'Settings'. My 'goal' with sync was to keep bookmarks up to date on all, including my phone.

From an other topic.

operadude wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:05 pm My queries are in response to a recent post:

https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p794508

Given the recent issues necessitating the use of Cloudflare (CF), the "Dark Reader" browser extension for Firefox (FF) stopped working on the Forum, and Midnight Lizard was recommended. I REALLY enjoy the Lizard!

However, the post listed at the top warns that Midnight Lizard uses 3rd-party data collection.

So, my question is: How concerned should I be about any 3rd-party data collection?
I know that this is a very loaded question, and depends on my individual circumstances.
So, here's a brief summary of my situation:

0. I just don't like the idea of someone collecting my data.
1. Nothing to hide, and not a state-sponsored whatever
2. No Social Media footprint, except for the occasional Discord programming servers (sites).
---> No Social Media, just 'cause I prefer human interaction, and have a negative bias as to how I think it has changed society. Yeah, grumpy old-ish man mourning his lost youth, etc., etc., etc.
3. In general, I want to avoid any of my data being collected, so I use:
uBlock Origin, Facebook Container, Privacy Badger, Express VPN, & Bitwarden
4. But then again, I do use Google (Gmail). So, I'm probably a gonner in terms of my data being collected!

So, if I don't worry about Google collecting my data (and I do, but have yet to make the switch)-- should I be worried about Midnight Lizard's 3rd-party data collection?

I know this is a HUGE topic, and all those things I installed are probably overkill, or maybe won't matter anyway, now that Google probably pwns me (Yes, "pwn"; pun, intended!).

I really am enjoying the Midnight Lizard, and welcome any advice/opinions about what people think about using it (or any other app/service/whatever) that has 3rd party data collection.

OK, can-of-worms opened, and I have prepared myself for the onslaught

lol.. your about 100% correct.. I suspect it will start now ;-p ... Honestly.. the two pieces of this that are of concern...
- Browsing: what you see, click on, where you are, and your demographics.
- What your "likes" and other 'data' that google can worm out of your email.

Personally ... I think gmail is the devil.. they rake your email's looking for anything that "is useful" in their content, searching, and ads ... and THAT pretty much means - "they use just about everything" from your email - AND they know who you are and where you are ;-/ (Specially if your using an android.)

I would suggest using something like firefox (here goes my bombardment!), with Not sending any data, then ublock origin, Privacy Badger and a good VPN (I dont know about ExpressVPN.) There are other browsers that dont have the FF 'data' part, but you can turn that off.

And wipe those cookies and cache every four or five websites too!

There are links at the bottom of ML's settings page that are out of their control.

I responded to that post here regarding what ML collects. viewtopic.php?p=794548#p794548

@FullScale4Me @CharlesV @siamhie :

Thank you guys for the responses!

CharlesV: I thought I had the strictest "Privacy & Security" settings enabled on my FF (only Browser I use).

But, checking, I found that I needed to enable 2 more options (which I just did):
"Website Privacy Preferences":
1. "Tell websites not to share my data", &
2. "Send websites a 'Do Not Track' request "

I thought I was crazy clearing my history so often. By "history", I mean, using the FF built-in "clear recent history" function from the FF "Library" tab/icon I have at the top right-hand section of the browser. I think I may have added that, using the editing of the FF "Bookmarks Toolbar Items", by right-clicking on the Bookmarks Toolbar area (upper-right), and selecting "Customize Toolbar".

If I understand you correctly, CharlesV, perhaps your mention of:

And wipe those cookies and cache every four or five websites too!

means something other than what I have been doing (clearing the "history")???

Do you mean to go into the FF settings, again, under "Privacy & Security", and in the "Cookies and Site Data" section, to manually choose/click-on "Clear Data"?

[Re: the strikeout below, see my "POST-POST-SCRIPT" section below!]
In that FF section, I do have selected "Delete cookies and site data when FF is closed".

So, If you recommend to do more (like I said above, by manually "Clear Data" in FF settings), PLEASE let me know

Also, I'm not sure I understand the difference between "Cookies" and "Cache"

Sorry for the NOOB question, but how do I clear my "Cache"? Is that something other than what I have been doing by frequently clearing my "History", using the built-in FF Bookmark Toolbar?

WOW: this reply is much longer than I had anticipated

Post Script:

In FF settings "Privacy and Security", in "Browser Privacy" section, in the first sub-section, "Enhanced Tracking Protection", I do have selected "Strict".

In Conclusion (2 most important words of a speech), I have thought for years now that I have been unnecessarily paranoid about all of this!

Good to Know that I'm not alone, or losing my mind

[Again, re: strikeout, see my "POST-POST-SCRIPT" below]
So, yeah, if you (or anyone else) could clarify for me my questions above about how to wipe "cookies and cache" in FF!



YO!
POST-POST-SCRIPT:

Really sorry that I didn't check, and certainly don't want to waste anyone's time! So:

I just clicked-on the built-in FF "clear recent history" icon/function that I mentioned above. Doing so brings-up a dialog box that says:

"Clear browsing data and cookies", and, underneath that I have all the boxes checked, including:
"History"
"Cookies and site data "
"Temporary cached files and pages"
"Site settings"

So, I think I'm covered by what you said, CharlesV.

If I'm missing something, please let me know!

operadude wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:05 pm So, if I don't worry about Google collecting my data (and I do, but have yet to make the switch)-- should I be worried about Midnight Lizard's 3rd-party data collection?

That's like worrying about your toothache in the middle of a heart attack :)

In my view, the first step towards regaining some control over your data is to divorce Google. For most people, I suspect that's the hardest part, because Google's services are ubiquitous. Until you can do that -- at least to some extent -- I'm not sure it's even worth worrying about anybody else's data scraping.

Just my $0.02.

BR, Lars

Mind.. we are being recorded by a number of Ring doorbells, security cameras are able to follow our every move, traffic camera's can see where we have been, and the government knows exactly how much we make in a year.

And we have NO influence on what is being done with all that data.

@lars_the_bear
Yeah, that was my suspicion!!!

As an old "Peanuts" cartooned warned once, when Charlie Brown found out that he worried over nothing, he responded, "Drats, I wasted a good worry!"

@Eadwine Rose

I was afraid that would be the answer!

So, I guess that I shouldn't worry that Big Brother is watchin', cause he's gonna' anyway!

Is there a "Cringe" emoji ???

Closest I can see on the Forum is ("Eek")

P.S.: Just found "Grimacing Emoji":

operadude wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 6:32 am So, I guess that I shouldn't worry that Big Brother is watchin', cause he's gonna' anyway!

Dunno. I think the fact that we can do little, isn't a good reason to do nothing. But where on-line privacy is concerned, even doing the minimum that seems to be necessary is already quite intrusive. I don't use any Google services, and I'm happy to pay the little that is required to use alternatives. But I can do that because I'm a geek, and I don't mind spending time and effort as well as money, to exclude Google from my life. For most people, I suspect it's mostly not a matter of money, but of convenience.

And, I guess, no clear assessment of the risks. People ask me: why does it matter, that Google knows everywhere I go? I don't have a convincing answer, beyond the stock one that it just seems risky to put so much information in the hands of an organization that doesn't have your best interests at heart. Asking somebody to do something that is tedious and inconvenient, for no clear benefit, is a big ask.

BR, Lars.

Eadwine Rose wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 6:00 am Mind.. we are being recorded by a number of Ring doorbells, security cameras are able to follow our every move, traffic camera's can see where we have been, and the government knows exactly how much we make in a year.

And we have NO influence on what is being done with all that data.

+1

lars_the_bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 8:08 am

operadude wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 6:32 am So, I guess that I shouldn't worry that Big Brother is watchin', cause he's gonna' anyway!

Dunno. I think the fact that we can do little, isn't a good reason to do nothing....
BR, Lars.

I concur, my good man

The take-away for me is:

Do as much as I can, and then, let go of the worry.

The "can-of-worms" I referred to in the original post concerns how far down the rabbit-hole I am willing to go. It seems to be a bottomless-pit, and I'll have to decide on some kind of balance between irrationally exuberant digital promiscuity, on the one hand, and cabin-in-the-woods-off-the-grid-Nutso (not that there's anything wrong with that-- to borrow an old TV-sitcom line), on the other hand.

Anyway, I am enjoying the feedback!

I do nothing, and don't worry at all.

Of course I am careful where I spread my stuff. Like not going into my bank when on a public wifi, not giving out personal data, basically the basic online safety stuff.

As far as google knowing where my phone is and such.. hey.. if I lose it, I can find it. And if it gets stolen, I know who to punch!

Eadwine Rose wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:17 am I do nothing, and don't worry at all.

Of course I am careful where I spread my stuff. Like not going into my bank when on a public wifi, not giving out personal data, basically the basic online safety stuff.

As far as google knowing where my phone is and such.. hey.. if I lose it, I can find it. And if it gets stolen, I know who to punch!

You are a better woman than I

I admire-- and aspire to-- your attitude

@operadude The words "hiding in plain site" come to mind :-)

So, to answer your question. I have ff setup to clear cookies and history at shutdown. Then, every 5 to 10 websites, I shutdown ff and start it back up. Not only does this clear cookies but it helps FF be lighter on my machine than running it. ( Caveate, I dont run that many websites - and yes, some times I DO go into privacy and clear all data.)

Here is the deal on cookeis... not JUST the website that created the cookie can read it. In many case affiliates of companyX can read cookies of companyX .. and Google ... is the big one. If your signed in, flipn everybody knows that. (And.. who you are.)

@CharlesV Thanks for the clarifications!

I, too, have FF to clear cookies and data on shutdown, and I rarely have more than 4 websites open at a time. Occasionally I have a few DuckDuckGo (default search engine) and StackOverflow tabs open for searches, and follow-up searches.

I like your idea of shutting-down FF and restarting after 5-10 tabs/sites.

I think I understand what you are saying about the dreaded Cookies! One reason I use Facebook Container. Also, I almost NEVER log into my Google account, except for one site that I use for Python programming, and it is set-up so that I have to be logged into my Google account. I wish it weren't that way, but it is; and I really use that site a lot! Anyway...

BUT, come to think of it: does Thunderbird automatically log me into my Google account to download my Gmail? I know that I set T-Bird up to automatically get my emails, and I think that involved using my Google credentials. Is that just to get the emails, and then I'm logged-out? Or is there some other process going on?

Just curious...I don't have the time for the next 2 months to do anything about switching from Gmail.

Anyway, Kudos on the Feedback!

Your welcome, and no TB only processes email via their authentication, it does not use cookies for that. (And you should not be browsing in TB, either - although that can also be set to remove cookies on exit.)

I make reasonable anti-tracking efforts. Reasonable for me. I don't imagine that any of my efforts, or loss of convenient features, make me untouchable. But I do expect my efforts to be registered as a vote against privacy invasion, at the very least.

And I expect that they reduce unsolicited emails, snail mail, phone calls, etc, etc, etc.

I would have guessed that ALL Linux users had information control issues, about one type of information or another. :-)

"But I do expect my efforts to be registered as a vote against privacy invasion, at the very least."

They will not care, not one iota, about your efforts. They won't even notice.

Eadwine Rose wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 1:38 pm They will not care, not one iota, about your efforts. They won't even notice.

Probably not. Doing the right thing is often not noticed in this world. All you can do is walk your sermon.

BR, Lars.

CharlesV wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 12:58 pm Your welcome, and no TB only processes email via their authentication, it does not use cookies for that. (And you should not be browsing in TB, either - although that can also be set to remove cookies on exit.)

Ahhh...Good to Know about TB

I think I'm good with TB, since I didn't even know you could browse in it!

operadude wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:47 pm I think I'm good with TB, since I didn't even know you could browse in it!

Thunderbird displays HTML messages, and can follow links in those messages to show images, etc. I don't think it supports 'browsing', as such, but it's still acting as a web browser, of sorts. I would guess it's using much the same technology to fetch the remote content and render the HTML as Firefox does. I don't know if it supports cookies and, even if it does, I doubt it could share them with Firefox or another browser. The fact that it can fetch images makes Thunderbird vulnerable to 'spy pixel' tracking methods, so I usually turn this feature off.

BR, Lars.

Ahhh...Good to know.

Yeah, I have the displaying image thing turned off.

The version of Thunderbird Mail I use responds exactly same as browsers with
CTRL + SHIFT + DELETE key combo

It allows you to delete stuff like cookies if you want.

You can also set the 'Bird to delete cookies automatically when it is closed - just like a browser in that respect.

Maybe even has parts of Firefox or Librewolf built in to it

Thunderbird does offer those options but I cannot guarantee that those options are completed as intended.
I sincerely hope they are tho

Aronticuz wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 8:20 am The version of Thunderbird Mail I use responds exactly same as browsers with
CTRL + SHIFT + DELETE key combo

It allows you to delete stuff like cookies if you want.

You can also set the 'Bird to delete cookies automatically when it is closed - just like a browser in that respect.

Maybe even has parts of Firefox or Librewolf built in to it

Thanks for that

I also see in T-Bird settings (General Tab), that there's an option for choosing the default search engine. I had already chosen DuckDuckGo. So, this is what I'm assuming @CharlesV meant when he mentioned the Browser in T-Bird. Anyway, I see now how to clear the cache and cookies, given your explanation!

operadude wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 12:24 pm ...
Thanks for that

I also see in T-Bird settings (General Tab), that there's an option for choosing the default search engine. I had already chosen DuckDuckGo. So, this is what I'm assuming @CharlesV meant when he mentioned the Browser in T-Bird. Anyway, I see now how to clear the cache and cookies, given your explanation!

I have been helped many time in this forum.

I hope my post just goes to say thanks for all help I have received in the past.

Interim conclusion: the linux distro you choose is as important as the support network around it?

Aronticuz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 3:13 pm

operadude wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 12:24 pm ...
Thanks for that

I also see in T-Bird settings (General Tab), that there's an option for choosing the default search engine. I had already chosen DuckDuckGo. So, this is what I'm assuming @CharlesV meant when he mentioned the Browser in T-Bird. Anyway, I see now how to clear the cache and cookies, given your explanation!

I have been helped many time in this forum.

I hope my post just goes to say thanks for all help I have received in the past.

Interim conclusion: the linux distro you choose is as important as the support network around it?

Yeah, search my posts regarding my 3 self-imposed commandments regarding the Forum, in "Encrypted Snapshot Install", post #39 in that thread:

https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p687368

And you'll get an idea about how hard I have fallen for MX-Linux

To quote the Talking Heads: "It's the Same as it Ever Was"

operadude wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:05 pm However, the post listed at the top warns that Midnight Lizard uses 3rd-party data collection.

If it were me, I would not use it.

operadude wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:05 pm So, my question is: How concerned should I be about any 3rd-party data collection?

I personally block as many scripts as practical, with https://noscript.net/ (and Ublock Origin) but it's ultimately a personal decision that only you can answer.

Eadwine Rose wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:17 am As far as google knowing where my phone is and such..

Without the location being on your phone won't ring. A necessary convenience, eh?

user101 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:38 pm

operadude wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:05 pm
However, the post listed at the top warns that Midnight Lizard uses 3rd-party data collection.

If it were me, I would not use it.

I've already mentioned that it is NOT Midnight Lizard collecting this data.
viewtopic.php?p=794551#p794551

There are links at the bottom of ML's settings page that are out of their control.

bottom left corner (Facebook, Instagram, Etc.)

Midnight Lizard web-extension does not collect any of your personal information,
browsing history, IP addresses, etc. Also it does not sell or transfer your personal
information to advertisers or other third-parties.

Midnight Lizard web-extension does not use browser cookies.

Midnight Lizard web-extension has links to external sites that are not operated by us.

https://midnight-lizard.org/extension-privacy

FullScale4Me wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 12:17 am

Eadwine Rose wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:17 am As far as google knowing where my phone is and such..

Without the location being on your phone won't ring. A necessary convenience, eh?

Not true. Phone rings even when that is off.

FullScale4Me wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 12:17 am

Eadwine Rose wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:17 am As far as google knowing where my phone is and such..

Without the location being on your phone won't ring. A necessary convenience, eh?

Android doesn't require a location service to take incoming calls; nor does its open-source derivatives like LineageOS. I'm not sure about other kinds of cellphone. I can't remember the last time I switched location services on in my Android phone. Stock Android and LineageOS will use Google's servers to speed up GPS fix ("Assisted GPS"), which will send cellular location data to Google. On LineageOS, you can turn this feature off, although doing so can add a minute to the time to get an initial GPS fix. I'm not sure about stock Android.

Even if you turn A-GPS off, some apps that use positioning will use the GPS API in Google Play Services which, again, sends position information to Google. There's no advantage to app developers in using this API, rather than the cellphone's built-in GPS, but Google encourages it, for obvious reasons.

If you have an Android (or similar) cellphone, and you don't want Google knowing where you are, you have to be very careful. I generally keep the location service turned off which, not only improves privacy, but also increases battery life. The OpenStreetMap app uses only cellphone GPS, not Google services, so that's what I use if I need a map.

BR, Lars

Eadwine Rose wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 3:33 am

FullScale4Me wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 12:17 am

Eadwine Rose wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:17 am As far as google knowing where my phone is and such..

Without the location being on your phone won't ring. A necessary convenience, eh?

Not true. Phone rings even when that is off.

Ah, I was told this by my 'in-house' phone expert, my wife an ex-telecom employee.

FullScale4Me wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 11:49 am Ah, I was told this by my 'in-house' phone expert, my wife an ex-telecom employee.

There are some things in Android that do need location services, for reasons that are not really clear. Bluetooth Low Energy scanning needs it, for example. This is very contentious in the Android developer community.

So I can see why misconceptions like this might arise. But I guess it's easy enough to test, right? No need to take my word for it

BR, Lars.

lars_the_bear wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 10:19 am

FullScale4Me wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 12:17 am

Eadwine Rose wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:17 am As far as google knowing where my phone is and such..

Without the location being on your phone won't ring. A necessary convenience, eh?

Android doesn't require a location service to take incoming calls; nor does its open-source derivatives like LineageOS.

The thing with Apple & Google is they are exempt from your Location / wi-fi / bluetooth / GPS settings. They can (and do) turn these on without your knowledge to track location 24/7, among other things, even when SIMless. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s8ZG6HuLrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RXs1e7FcJg
You can also search for: Google Location settlement.

When the user reasonably expects OFF to mean OFF, OFF is only for third-party apps, not Apple & Google. Rooting your android device (and gettingi rid of Google Play, Google apps, etc.) will not get rid of the proprietary code Google uses to track users. To actually have OFF mean OFF, you need custom firmware on the small selection of phones / tablets that can take open-source custom firmware. Apple users have no similar solutions. Apple brags about caring for your privacy, which is a sad joke. Both of them make deals with countries around the world to surveil their users in order to be able to sell their devices in these markets, including China.

user101 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 7:49 pm To actually have OFF mean OFF, you need custom firmware on the small selection of phones / tablets that can take open-source custom firmware.

I can't comment on Apple, but Android is an advertising platform. Tracking your location is part of how that platform is implemented, and I don't think that's any kind of secret. Having said that, I'm not convinced that Android will slyly use GPS when the user has turned the location service off. It probably doesn't even need to -- there are other ways to track the user's location that don't rely on GPS, and are good enough for advertising purposes. I'm not defending Google -- I'm sure they're capable of deceptive practices; but if Android behaved the way you imply, I think that would show up in, for example, battery life. The reality is that most people with Android phones leave the location service turned on -- most don't even know, I think, that there's a switch for it -- so there's no need for Google to be deceptive. Goodness knows, the reality is bad enough -- there's no need to exaggerate the problem.

There are plenty of phones that can take custom firmware -- I don't think it's a 'small selection'. The problem is that most of these phones are at least two years old, and many people like to use devices that are newer than that. So long as I can continue to replace the battery, I don't care how old my phone is, but I suspect I'm in the minority.

The real problem with custom firmware is that installing it is a PITA, but it's not beyond the capability of a typical Linux user, I think. It's a weird irony that the devices on which it's easiest to do this are Google's own Pixel devices. Well, the other real problem is that the number of people who are capable of producing custom firmware is diminishing, because everybody with that kind of skill ends up working for Google.

When it becomes impossible to use a smartphone in a completely de-Googled way, I'll be going back to a brick phone, and I'd recommend the same to anybody else who cares about privacy.

BR, Lars.

user101 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:38 pm

operadude wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:05 pm However, the post listed at the top warns that Midnight Lizard uses 3rd-party data collection.

If it were me, I would not use it.

operadude wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:05 pm So, my question is: How concerned should I be about any 3rd-party data collection?

I personally block as many scripts as practical, with https://noscript.net/ (and Ublock Origin) but it's ultimately a personal decision that only you can answer.

Just seeing this now...

Thanks!

lars_the_bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:08 am I can't comment on Apple, but Android is an advertising platform. Tracking your location is part of how that platform is implemented, and I don't think that's any kind of secret.

I only found out a few years ago that OFF was never really OFF (as a typical user would assume), but I always used to wonder what could be eating up my battery (before this I was using a Nokia Symbian-based phone which was far more efficient, and not only because of the smaller screen because I am talking standby). Custom firmware phones do have increased battery life because this stuff is truly off, by the way.

lars_the_bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:08 am The reality is that most people with Android phones leave the location service turned on -- most don't even know, I think, that there's a switch for it -- so there's no need for Google to be deceptive. Goodness knows, the reality is bad enough -- there's no need to exaggerate the problem.

Turning Location OFF is only for third-party apps, both Google & Apple ignore your settings when it comes to tracking location (through various means, GPS, wi-fi, bluetooth).

lars_the_bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:08 am There are plenty of phones that can take custom firmware -- I don't think it's a 'small selection'.

It's very small, from my perspective. We get an avalanche of new devices released every year & so few are ready for custom firmware. Even with the older devices, so few devices (relative to the pile of products releaed in any given year). A tiny percentage of the overall selection of devices.

lars_the_bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:08 am The problem is that most of these phones are at least two years old, and many people like to use devices that are newer than that. So long as I can continue to replace the battery, I don't care how old my phone is, but I suspect I'm in the minority.

A Samsung S5 or an ancient Samsung Note model with custom firmware (and of course pop-off back cover with removable battery, as god intended) is more valuable to me than just about anything selling now.

lars_the_bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:08 am The real problem with custom firmware is that installing it is a PITA, but it's not beyond the capability of a typical Linux user, I think.

It is a PITA for sure. I have to set aside a block of time to get 'into the zone'. Gather instructions, various files, etc. It takes me far too long, and makes me nervous too, taking some years off my life with every attempt. I absolutely hate the process but love the results (when it works). There are businesses selling custom firmware phones but they are pretty much always overpriced, so my Tightness Gene kicks in and doesn't allow it.

lars_the_bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:08 am It's a weird irony that the devices on which it's easiest to do this are Google's own Pixel devices.

Yes, I've always thought that was weird. Though I am not interested in any device without a removable MicroSD, which so many manufacturers are not going with today. Without one, if something happens to the phone, all your data is on the phone and there it goes.

lars_the_bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:08 am Well, the other real problem is that the number of people who are capable of producing custom firmware is diminishing, because everybody with that kind of skill ends up working for Google.

When it becomes impossible to use a smartphone in a completely de-Googled way, I'll be going back to a brick phone, and I'd recommend the same to anybody else who cares about privacy.

I hope that day never comes

The US govt has mandated that ONLY the newer 4G smartphones with the newer samsung exynos chips (radios all fused together) are allowed here in the US. Even if the phone has 4G capabilities, if it's an older model it's blacklisted. So they not only made it harder to make a phone call they made it much easier to spy on everyone by forcing the same hardware down the US's throats. Both my "smartphones" are running a version of de-googled lineageos with magisk and neither of them are listed as being 5G. When they make it where you are forced to use a 5G phone, which I'm sure they plan on, I will have to purchase a data plan only sim card and a sip acct and start using sip instead. Then at least I'll be able to use wifi at home for calls instead of going through the exynos fused nonsense radios.

Redpocket is the cheapest cell service, but, you have to be able to edit the apn to get it to work so 'brickphones' won't work. Plus EVERY phone sold has a gps chip and imo, the simpler it is the less likely you are in separating the radios inside, meaning your gps is always on. Great if you are actively tracking someone's every move, what the govt does, but terrible if you actually believe in privacy as a God-given right.
The AGM G6 is a rugged brickphone that says it has NO gps, and it's cheap too at around $70 the last time I checked but it requires a sim card that is automatically recognized like an ATT plan and those are not actaully cheap like redpocket. That's a great phone but you cannot install aps nor edit your apn like you can on a fragile pita complicated smartphone pos. (just what grandma doesn't need or want).

What needs to take place is we the people need to take our privacy back and make it IMPOSSIBLE for the govt to snoop on our communications at all EVER. If we don't they will simply continue to use this data, our data, to control us ever the moreso.

Attention is about control. "Data collection" is not what's happening at all and it's really just that simple.

user101 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2024 12:23 am It is a PITA for sure. I have to set aside a block of time to get 'into the zone'. Gather instructions, various files, etc. It takes me far too long, and makes me nervous too, taking some years off my life with every attempt.

The worst that can happen is that you'll end up throwing your phone in the trash. You'll already have backed up any data you need to keep, since you know it's going to get wiped, whether the installation succeeds or fails. The Samsung S5 you mentioned can be had for about $30, so that wouldn't be a terrible loss, considering the potential gains. It shouldn't really be a source of heartache

But I've found that, for Samsung devices at least, I've done so many that it's no longer a problem. It takes me about an hour, including the two or three times you have to do a complete reset/wipe. I use `heimdall` to flash the custom recovery, and `adb sideload` to push the new OS image. The first time I did it, it took several days.

The manufacturers certainly don't make it easy, but it gets easier every time you do it.

FWIW my favourite Lineage-supprted phones are the Samsung S10e and Note 9. The Note 10 range also supports Lineage, but I'm not going to be using a phone without a headphone jack at my time of life. Neither has a user-replaceable battery, sadly, but there's a shop in my neighbourhood where they'll replace the battery for little more than the cost of the part. These phones have SD slots and great screens. The S5e tablet also takes Lineage relatively easily, using the same procedure as the phones. I've also installed Lineage on a couple of Sony devices, but I haven't done it enough times for it to be easy.

BR, Lars

davidy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2024 2:21 am Plus EVERY phone sold has a gps chip and imo, the simpler it is the less likely you are in separating the radios inside, meaning your gps is always on. Great if you are actively tracking someone's every move, what the govt does, but terrible if you actually believe in privacy as a God-given right.

I'm not convinced that privacy is a God-given right, but I certainly agree that it's worth trying to preserve.

As for the radios, though -- GPS is only a receiver, so I don't think it would make sense to combine it with other radio-type devices. There are plenty of combined wifi/bluetooth chips, but these technologies operate in much the same way, at similar frequencies. I don't know of any commercially-available chip that combines GPS with anything else although, of course, I don't know what proprietary technologies the cellphone companies have. I'm sure they sell enough units to make it worth producing custom parts, if there seems to be a cost saving in doing so.

But if a GPS is running when you don't want it to be, how could you prove that? A stock Android device won't give you enough access to the hardware to monitor it and, if you install custom firmware, you've changed the test completely. GPS doesn't transmit anything, so you couldn't even use an external radio to check it.

So, although I've heard repeated concerns that GPS preferences are ignored by Google software, I'm not sure how anybody could prove that. Bear in mind that your phone will be able to get an approximate location from the cellular service, and a better location from wifi access points, if you live in a region where Google has already snooped these (as I do). That Google does this isn't a secret -- Google is entirely open about it[1].

So why would Google want or need to fiddle with the GPS behind the user's back, when they've got plenty of other ways to track us? I'm not saying this doesn't happen, only that I don't see there's any way to know for sure.

BR, Lars

[1] https://support.google.com/maps/answer/1725632?hl=en