MX Linux Forum

Posted: **Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:05 pm**

Hi,

Just floating an idea that's been rolling around in my brain...

Since there are mixed reviews on AV Linux with Enlightenment (I will not personally be going back to XFCE4) what if in the future (ie next Debian Trixie) there was no distributed "AV Linux" and simply a custom 'media' build of vanilla MX XFCE4 | KDE ??

Essentially:

MX official releases as they are themed and presented with their defaults PLUS:

- Replacement liquorix kernel
- Wine-Staging + yabridge + wineasio
- AV Linux performance configurations (/etc/default stuff)
- AV Linux PipeWire-JACK extra configs + PW metadata tool
- AV Linux utilities and helper scripts (YADbridge, Wine-Audio-Utils, Sysedit)
- Official Ardour bundles and a nice selection of pre-installed Audio Plugins
- Much less in-depth stuff like the numerous specialized custom actions that most people don't seem to be aware of anyway..

Obviously the ISO names would need to be changed to indicate the custom media spin, but essentially at first glance just a good 'ole MX Linux ISO with some extras... Thoughts??

Posted: **Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:17 pm**

Would it be similar to what you can get with fluxbox?

XFCE/KDE users can install either the standard fluxbox setup (like what you get with other distro's) or the mx-fluxbox install which includes all the customization added to the standard install.

Maybe have it as an AVL meta package so to speak that can be added to any desktop of choice from the user.

flux.jpg

Posted: **Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:42 pm**

siamhie wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:17 pm Would it be similar to what you can get with fluxbox?

XFCE/KDE users can install either the standard fluxbox setup (like what you get with other distro's) or the mx-fluxbox install which includes all the customization added to the standard install.

Maybe have it as an AVL meta package so to speak that can be added to any desktop of choice from the user.

flux.jpg

Meh, it's not nearly that easy unfortunately, a meta-package would miss most of the good stuff... There is good reason that AVL has as many external packages as it does, Stevo is extremely accommodating and helpful but in something so specialized as AVL there are a lot of edge cases..

- Some AVL defaults will collide with MX defaults
- Many specialized apps (Ardour, Mixbus, Blender, Cinelerra, Reaper, Musescore off the top of my head) are not in MX Repos, or aren't supported outside their Vendor binaries or have been abandoned in Debian Repos with ancient versions and no up to date sources.
- Some programs and Audio Plugins in AVL are closed-source and have prohibitive licensing to be Repo packages

Posted: **Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:24 am**

Would it then be "MX Linux AV Studio"?

Might be a good idea. But the most important thing to keep is:
- stability
- functionality
- current programs and plugins
- immediate operational readiness
- Glen

It might be useful to move more under the umbrella of MX Linux. The lightest desktop possible. However, the current one is quite good. It will develop in the future. In my opinion, the knowledge of the MXLinux community is top class and it is a good home for this. But even the current model is certainly working

Posted: **Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:32 am**

AVLinux wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:42 pm
Meh, it's not nearly that easy unfortunately, a meta-package would miss most of the good stuff... There is good reason that AVL has as many external packages as it does, Stevo is extremely accommodating and helpful but in something so specialized as AVL there are a lot of edge cases..

- Some AVL defaults will collide with MX defaults
- Many specialized apps (Ardour, Mixbus, Blender, Cinelerra, Reaper, Musescore off the top of my head) are not in MX Repos, or aren't supported outside their Vendor binaries or have been abandoned in Debian Repos with ancient versions and no up to date sources.
- Some programs and Audio Plugins in AVL are closed-source and have prohibitive licensing to be Repo packages

I see what you mean, especially with regards to outside/closed source packages.

simply a custom 'media' build of vanilla MX XFCE4 | KDE

Would that be a single install ISO and the user can choose between the two desktops?

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:23 am**

I find it a bit sad there's been mixed reviews for the Enlightenment AVL version. I found, and find it easy to work with, even with the initial odd quirk here and there (which Glen has solved), and the journey of discovery for Pipewire, which as a die hard jack user has been a challenge worthy of my skepticism. Now it just works.

Glen, as long as you continue creating an Enlightenment version, I for one will continue using it.

If you decide to streamline your herculean efforts into "MX Linux +", then I will understand that too. The amount of effort you've put into AV Linux over many years can't be appreciated enough, and, not speaking for anyone else but myself, I'll say Thanks, again. Switching to MX/Anti Linux was one your best decisions, imho. Stable, reliable, the list of plusses goes on and on. An entirely successful partnership that we have benefited from.

So whatever you decide to do, you have my continued support, be it a continuation of AVL-MXDE, or a +, overlaid on MX/Anti Linux.

Respect,

Alex.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2024 4:00 am**

alextone wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:23 am I find it a bit sad there's been mixed reviews for the Enlightenment AVL version. I found, and find it easy to work with, even with the initial odd quirk here and there (which Glen has solved), and the journey of discovery for Pipewire, which as a die hard jack user has been a challenge worthy of my skepticism. Now it just works.

Glen, as long as you continue creating an Enlightenment version, I for one will continue using it.

If you decide to streamline your herculean efforts into "MX Linux +", then I will understand that too. The amount of effort you've put into AV Linux over many years can't be appreciated enough, and, not speaking for anyone else but myself, I'll say Thanks, again. Switching to MX/Anti Linux was one your best decisions, imho. Stable, reliable, the list of plusses goes on and on. An entirely successful partnership that we have benefited from.

So whatever you decide to do, you have my continued support, be it a continuation of AVL-MXDE, or a +, overlaid on MX/Anti Linux.

Respect,

Alex.

There is nothing to be sad about it because there is no such thing as a one size fits all Linux distro.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:20 am**

alextone wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:23 am I find it a bit sad there's been mixed reviews for the Enlightenment AVL version. I found, and find it easy to work with, even with the initial odd quirk here and there (which Glen has solved), and the journey of discovery for Pipewire, which as a die hard jack user has been a challenge worthy of my skepticism. Now it just works.

Glen, as long as you continue creating an Enlightenment version, I for one will continue using it.

If you decide to streamline your herculean efforts into "MX Linux +", then I will understand that too. The amount of effort you've put into AV Linux over many years can't be appreciated enough, and, not speaking for anyone else but myself, I'll say Thanks, again. Switching to MX/Anti Linux was one your best decisions, imho. Stable, reliable, the list of plusses goes on and on. An entirely successful partnership that we have benefited from.

So whatever you decide to do, you have my continued support, be it a continuation of AVL-MXDE, or a +, overlaid on MX/Anti Linux.

Respect,

Alex.

I very much agree. Grateful for what is now.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2024 7:29 am**

Even though I haven't had the chance to use AV Linux, I have benefited tremendously from reading your work (AVL 21 manual that is) in the past; this is how I made a similar pulse/jack configuration in MX 21. You also pointed me a the right direction with pipewire in MX 23 about half a year ago. I might be a niche standing in between the target AVL user and MX user; so I do not know how eligible I am to come up with suggestions on the matter. I can say just a few words either way though. I personally stayed daily driving MX because it is mostly equiped with programs that I use, I removed only a few stock apps and didn't add too too many either; and xfce has proved itself to me on various machines for 2+ years now. Now, I know that the pipewire leap was big enough last year but in the future if we could have the audio configurations and configuration tools there it would solve more than half of my problems. I also gave up on Wine because FL Studio doesn't play 100% nicely nor Native Access..the only reason really I still have a drive with Windows 10. All that said I'll be happy with whatever next direction you take AVL, and I'll be giving feedback whenever I can of testing new app releases.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:47 pm**

Hi, thanks folks for the kind words..

This is all just some future planning thoughts and ideas, I'm not convinced there isn't a place for AVL as it is now in the future, I'm just wondering if it might be a good plan B or a good alternative for folks who want a tuned system but perhaps don't like Enlightenment, or find AVL too specialized, or just would prefer an Audio tuned MX system to start with..

@siamhie

My plan would be separate ISO's based on MX XFCE4 and KDE, I have nothing against Fluxbox I just think the other two DE's would be more popular choices for this purpose..

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:50 pm**

@AVLinux I have to agree with Mauser, there is no such thing as a 'one size fit' .

In my humble opinion ... the tooling that you have put together is pretty amazing... and THAT is the real beauty of AVL. I would suggest working at a 'base' that you could drop onto a load which would provide the tools and configs that work.

IF you had a clean, lean MX base (xfce and / or kde) and could drop your "AVL' tools onto it, then I think you would be in the best possible position to not only set that up, but also to support it.

I would offer to help with creating a lean xfce base if you need some contributors to work with and support it. I dont really know KDE well, but I think that too would be highly beneficial.

And since you know enlightenment and lxde well, that is the other piece that fits here. Every write up I have seen suggests that the LXDE is a component and provides a serious user base for many things.

You have done excellent with AVL and I think you will find the right place to land. ( or return too even ) One thing I have learned in years of software development... you cannot please everyone. SO, you must take a position that works and that YOU CAN work with and support. Once you have that, it will all work - for everyone that it can.

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:08 am**

AVLinux wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:47 pm
@siamhie

My plan would be separate ISO's based on MX XFCE4 and KDE, I have nothing against Fluxbox I just think the other two DE's would be more popular choices for this purpose..

@AVLinux An XFCE & KDE release sounds good. Personally I have no problem with leaving fluxbox out of the mix.
If (select) users are getting their panties in a bunch over the Enlightenment desktop, I can only image it being worse using an actual window manager.

Whatever you decide down the road, I will be more than welcome to test out your next release(s).

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2024 6:03 am**

Glen i use AVL a long time and it works perfectly,there are a few system depended glitches but that's normal. Your video is a live saver to even use E and i still fight with it.So i had wondered can you switch to xfce.Got ardour working but no idea how to use the jack stuff.the panel right side if i add using the ibar it also add to the bottom and E has no clear manual (i find) so got back to 21 to work until i can use 23. To the readers i am a old grumpy music maker :)
@alextone If you find it easy to use,please write a manual.

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:11 pm**

Be OK wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 6:03 am Glen i use AVL a long time and it works perfectly,there are a few system depended glitches but that's normal. Your video is a live saver to even use E and i still fight with it.So i had wondered can you switch to xfce.Got ardour working but no idea how to use the jack stuff.the panel right side if i add using the ibar it also add to the bottom and E has no clear manual (i find) so got back to 21 to work until i can use 23. To the readers i am a old grumpy music maker :)
@alextone If you find it easy to use,please write a manual.

Hi Be OK!

Everybody has opinions and I am no different... For me (opinion only) XFCE4 uses far too many resources for what you get, it's seemingly becoming Gnome-lite, it's not ready (yet) for Wayland, it's built-in compositing is too bland for my taster and it's kludgy to use with external compositors (ie compton), but what really killed it for me was that it doesn't work well at all... in fact it's built-in Display scaling is completely broken with 4K monitors and if you scale it up with xrandr (MX tweak) it looks blurry and loses detail so I had enough. Enlightenment is FAR from perfect but it is super efficient with resources, has beautiful compositing and excellent scaling.

If you want to install XFCE4 into AVL you can of course, you'll just need to set it up yourself

First of all how do you want to use JACK? What programs are you using?

As far as the active Windows appearing in all iBars you can make this setting so active windows don't appear in the iBar itself:

shot-2024-04-19_11-47-18.resized.jpg

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:37 pm**

AVLinux wrote->

but what really killed it for me was that it doesn't work well at all... in fact it's built-in Display scaling is completely broken with 4K monitors and if you scale it up with xrandr (MX tweak) it looks blurry and loses detail so I had enough.

Glen,
does this do anything (help) https://dpi.lv/#3840%C3%972160
if set in Appearance in Xfce.

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:49 pm**

MXRobo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:37 pm AVLinux wrote->
but what really killed it for me was that it doesn't work well at all... in fact it's built-in Display scaling is completely broken with 4K monitors and if you scale it up with xrandr (MX tweak) it looks blurry and loses detail so I had enough.
Glen,
does this do anything (help) https://dpi.lv/#3840%C3%972160
if set in Appearance in Xfce.

Hi, that's interesting, I currently have no XFCE4 installs but may try booting a default MX XFCE4 ISO to test that..

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2024 4:58 pm**

MXRobo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:37 pm AVLinux wrote->
but what really killed it for me was that it doesn't work well at all... in fact it's built-in Display scaling is completely broken with 4K monitors and if you scale it up with xrandr (MX tweak) it looks blurry and loses detail so I had enough.
Glen,
does this do anything (help) https://dpi.lv/#3840%C3%972160
if set in Appearance in Xfce.

That web site seems to work with -only- known monitors. (case in point)

I tried looking up information on my (2021) HP X27Q (1440) monitor and no results came up.

So I plugged in my monitors diagonal dimensions and got this

163.png

Yet the technical specs for -my- monitor says this.

Pixels per inch (ppi) 109 ppi (- --not 163)

Resolution (maximum) QHD (2560 x 1440 @ 165 Hz) (---not 3840x 2160)

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2024 6:02 pm**

@siamhie
I use that website to SET my Custom DPI (without any scaling) in: Appearance → Fonts – DPI - - Custom DPI
I enter 141 for a 1920x1080 -15.6 inch screen

I read that most devs worked with 1366x768 and 15.6" screens, so I divided 1920/1366 ~ 1.41.
Later, I found that website and it recommended the same number as I entered after getting my first HD computer – laptop.

Assuming a 16:9 aspect ratio, for a 27" I'd:

Horizontal pixels/1366) X (15.6/Diag. screen size) = Custom DPI (without any scaling)
Ex. (2560/1366) X (15.6/27) = 1.08 Close to the suggested 109 [Maybe they're rounding each separate calculation]
Ex. (3840/1366) X (15.6/27) = 1.62 Close to the suggested 163

Posted: **Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:01 am**

AVLinux wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:47 pm Hi, thanks folks for the kind words..

This is all just some future planning thoughts and ideas, I'm not convinced there isn't a place for AVL as it is now in the future, I'm just wondering if it might be a good plan B or a good alternative for folks who want a tuned system but perhaps don't like Enlightenment, or find AVL too specialized, or just would prefer an Audio tuned MX system to start with.

i reckon that it would be a nice path to walk

Posted: **Sat Apr 20, 2024 10:55 am**

MXRobo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 6:02 pm @siamhie
I use that website to SET my Custom DPI (without any scaling) in: Appearance → Fonts – DPI - - Custom DPI
I enter 141 for a 1920x1080 -15.6 inch screen

I read that most devs worked with 1366x768 and 15.6" screens, so I divided 1920/1366 ~ 1.41.
Later, I found that website and it recommended the same number as I entered after getting my first HD computer – laptop.

Assuming a 16:9 aspect ratio, for a 27" I'd:

Horizontal pixels/1366) X (15.6/Diag. screen size) = Custom DPI (without any scaling)
Ex. (2560/1366) X (15.6/27) = 1.08 Close to the suggested 109 [Maybe they're rounding each separate calculation]
Ex. (3840/1366) X (15.6/27) = 1.62 Close to the suggested 163

@MXRobo I didn't even notice the web site assumed my monitor was 4K so I plugged in my actual dimensions (2560x1440) and size of 27" and the PPI came up correct.

109.png

and that's what QSI also reports.

Code: Select all

Monitor-1: DP-3 mapped: DisplayPort-2 model: HP X27q serial: <filter> built: 2021
    res: 2560x1440 hz: 165 dpi: 109 gamma: 1.2 size: 597x336mm (23.5x13.23") diag: 685mm (27")
    ratio: 16:9 modes: max: 2560x1440 min: 720x400

Posted: **Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:59 pm**

As a studio muscian, sideman, touring musician for the last 50 years I've had numerous instances where I've needed to digitize, tweak, remaster, etc. audio files whether recorded by me or from media given to me from the venues I've played in. Other than that, I create audio/visual material for a number of university profs and lecturers who are doing online courses and require help.

As far as direct-to-disk recording goes, I'm very "old-school". For more than solo work, I have a small PA system that, once all is mixed to everyone's liking in the console, I can connect via usb, record, and then master in my DAW of choice. Similar with a solo recording, but often option for my H2 Zoom and then transfer the audio to the computer for touch-ups.

All of this work is done (now and in the past) on my rigs that utilize a Linux OS and FOSS software include in the standard repos. Since 2017, I've been using MX Linux as my daily driver. The present iteration (MX-23) has everthing I need to perform my audio/visual tasks. Exceptions from what I can install from Synaptic (e.g., Ardour, Audacity, Ladspa Plugins, LMMS, LV2 Plugins Qsynth, Qjackctl, Rosegarden) would be recent AppImages (Shotcut, CinelerraGG, Qtractor, Avidemux, Krita, Kdenlive, Musescore) along with Reaper on Wine-Staging with a few Vsts mostly Reverbs, Compression, and Mastering (all freeware .dlls). Absolutely no reason to use anything from MX's Test Repos ... Long-story-short, it's easy-peasy rolling your own MX multimedia provisions. For me everything just works, the only caveat being Ardour not being able to use Jack (as GMaq points out, use ALSA as the back-end). Qtractor (latest AppImage), Qsynth, Rosegarden, function perfectly with Qjackctl.

Given that a user is already familiar with MX Linux, and that their hardware flawlessly supports it, there's no reason whatsoever for someone not to be able to roll their own multimedia workhorse.

Now briefly to AVLinux ... GMaq has done an incredible job (actually, a herculean task!) in presenting the functionality of using Pipewire and also Qpwgraph as an alternative to Qjackctrl. This is an important and gargantuan step to take insofar as PW is the future Linux sound-server. His is the ONLY multimedia distro to have come to grips with this innovation. With the dated version of PW in MX-23 that he had to work with, it is quite remarkable. For many seasoned music-creators with compatible rigs, the system works perfectly OOTB. Given the fact that MX-23 has an EOL of 2028, GMaq would have plenty of time to reckon with the most recent version of PW for better all-round support, including Jack! Maybe it just might cure Ardour-Jack woes!

To all this, I say to GMaq that I hope you continue what you've begun ... tweaking PW (and Enlightenment BTW) with what's coming down the pike and that we'll eventually see a newer and greater AVLinux. Maybe more stripped-down, no more commercial software or plugins and a more-curated selection of some very basic free VSTs?

Finally, no need for another MX-variant. If XFCE/KDE users want to roll their own, they can ... XFCE users can already (forever ... as long as their hardware lives!) avail themselves of your MX-21 XFCE version.

Take care GMaq!

Posted: **Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:57 pm**

@AVLinux Indeed that E has advance over xfce and use it only my old brain cant find any how-to use E and AVL with PW.
Thats why i fall back on 21 as i know how to use that.As you had not made that video only thing i was setting up was the wifi :)

@Zeke Yes Gmac is providing a excellent product and that all in his free time,only the change to E and PW is to much (for me).I wait on some more how-to from users ,that are slowly comming.

Posted: **Sat Apr 20, 2024 4:59 pm**

Soo.. I love Linux and especially the multiple desktops and WMs I can run on it that I have always wanted to use Linux for my main passion: music making and listening.. Finally there is a powerful and most customizable Linux distro that allows all my computing dreams to come true! MX LINUX!! Yes.. I shouted on that one lol! See? GMaq has, all the way from the land of Romance(quoted from a national geographics mag from the 90s)brought to us that dream come true in a most spectacular way! I now finally have Enlightenment with music making in Linux instead of a fake Enlightenment desktop interface on Windows XP/7 with music making apps.. So because of AV and MX combined, I have ditched Windows for most of my computer and music making needs! Now I am still needing FL studio to work in Linux and Sonar(Cakewalk) to work in Linux, but there are so many good alternatives for Linux now that actually work, that I can possibly ditch those apps too!? I mean.. really! LOL! My hat off to you sir! Yes, I would love a meta package for AVL-MXE that can add/convert my MX distro into a music making power house in one swell foop.. if you will. kx studio did it, why not you? Now I do customize the heck out of AVL-MXE distros I get ahold of so alot of the things others gripe or stumble over, do not affect me since I go all tinker happy and live on the edge anyway. I always wanted an "ENLIGHTENMENT OS", computing.. My Way! Style Distro/OS that I faked with Windows XP and shell/GUI hacking apps and alot of music apps.. Now we have that "OS". Thankyou again @AVLinux. Yes please! To a meta package for MX

Posted: **Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:04 pm**

@pianokeyjoe
GMaq already posted why a metapackage would be unfeasible. Please see post #3.

@GMaq
Just an aside ... I wanted to download some of your Hydrogen Drumkits from Bandshed but my browser (FF) warned me about an insecure connection.

Posted: **Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:28 pm**

Zeke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:04 pm @pianokeyjoe
GMaq already posted why a metapackage would be unfeasible. Please see post #3.

@GMaq
Just an aside ... I wanted to download some of your Hydrogen Drumkits from Bandshed but my browser (FF) warned me about an insecure connection.

I got it.. ah well.. I will just keep using and tweaking AVL-MXE. No loss there!

Posted: **Sun Apr 21, 2024 5:51 am**

@Zeke

@GMaq
Just an aside ... I wanted to download some of your Hydrogen Drumkits from Bandshed but my browser (FF) warned me about an insecure connection.

I have similar with Firefox (getting tried of FF) going to YouTube and Reddit so tried SeaMonkey and worked and it SeaMonkey loaded Reddit & YT site/pages as always in Life "The decision is yours" I can only suggest what works here from my keyboard.

Posted: **Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:48 am**

Zeke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:04 pm @pianokeyjoe
GMaq already posted why a metapackage would be unfeasible. Please see post #3.

@GMaq
Just an aside ... I wanted to download some of your Hydrogen Drumkits from Bandshed but my browser (FF) warned me about an insecure connection.

@Zeke That's because the connection is HTTP and not HTTPS. I believe FF enables HTTPS-Only by default. (Edit > Settings > Privacy & Security > HTTPS-Only Mode)

html.png

Turn off HTTPS-Only Mode for certain sites
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/ht ... tain-sites

Posted: **Sun Apr 21, 2024 5:01 pm**

Firefox-ESR already comes with https disabled in settings. Just for info.

Posted: **Thu May 02, 2024 11:13 am**

AVLinux wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:05 pm Hi,

Just floating an idea that's been rolling around in my brain...

Since there are mixed reviews on AV Linux with Enlightenment (I will not personally be going back to XFCE4) what if in the future (ie next Debian Trixie) there was no distributed "AV Linux" and simply a custom 'media' build of vanilla MX XFCE4 | KDE ??

Essentially:

MX official releases as they are themed and presented with their defaults PLUS:

- Replacement liquorix kernel
- Wine-Staging + yabridge + wineasio
- AV Linux performance configurations (/etc/default stuff)
- AV Linux PipeWire-JACK extra configs + PW metadata tool
- AV Linux utilities and helper scripts (YADbridge, Wine-Audio-Utils, Sysedit)
- Official Ardour bundles and a nice selection of pre-installed Audio Plugins
- Much less in-depth stuff like the numerous specialized custom actions that most people don't seem to be aware of anyway..

Obviously the ISO names would need to be changed to indicate the custom media spin, but essentially at first glance just a good 'ole MX Linux ISO with some extras... Thoughts??

Yes please! I have been wondering, why it wasn't like this in the first place? I must admit, that I never have really used AVLinux, although I have tried it. I also watched the long Video to educate my self. Well, here are some of the problems for me: 1. Enlightenment. People are choosing MX-Linux, because they want a distro, without systemd. Enlightenment relays heavily on systemd. I understand the wish for something new and light, but I think that for example LXQT, would have been the better choice. LXQT is light, fresh, easy to configure and ready for Wayland! 2. All the proprietary software that comes with AVLinux is just a big NO-NO for me! If it would have been optional, as in Opt-In, but I can't understand the chosen path. 3. Same goes for WINE, Wine-Audio-Utils, YADBridge and other programs for running proprietary windows software. Opt-In-> Yes! Opt-Out-> Big NO-NO for me. Just my thoughts.

Posted: **Thu May 02, 2024 11:21 am**

Karl Marx wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 11:13 am
AVLinux wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:05 pm Hi,

Just floating an idea that's been rolling around in my brain...

Since there are mixed reviews on AV Linux with Enlightenment (I will not personally be going back to XFCE4) what if in the future (ie next Debian Trixie) there was no distributed "AV Linux" and simply a custom 'media' build of vanilla MX XFCE4 | KDE ??

Essentially:

MX official releases as they are themed and presented with their defaults PLUS:

- Replacement liquorix kernel
- Wine-Staging + yabridge + wineasio
- AV Linux performance configurations (/etc/default stuff)
- AV Linux PipeWire-JACK extra configs + PW metadata tool
- AV Linux utilities and helper scripts (YADbridge, Wine-Audio-Utils, Sysedit)
- Official Ardour bundles and a nice selection of pre-installed Audio Plugins
- Much less in-depth stuff like the numerous specialized custom actions that most people don't seem to be aware of anyway..

Obviously the ISO names would need to be changed to indicate the custom media spin, but essentially at first glance just a good 'ole MX Linux ISO with some extras... Thoughts??
Yes please! I have been wondering, why it wasn't like this in the first place? I must admit, that I never have really used AVLinux, although I have tried it. I also watched the long Video to educate my self. Well, here are some of the problems for me: 1. Enlightenment. People are choosing MX-Linux, because they want a distro, without systemd. Enlightenment relays heavily on systemd. I understand the wish for something new and light, but I think that for example LXQT, would have been the better choice. LXQT is light, fresh, easy to configure and ready for Wayland! 2. All the proprietary software that comes with AVLinux is just a big NO-NO for me! If it would have been optional, as in Opt-In, but I can't understand the chosen path. 3. Same goes for WINE, Wine-Audio-Utils, YADBridge and other programs for running proprietary windows software. Opt-In-> Yes! Opt-Out-> Big NO-NO for me. Just my thoughts.

Sorry for my bad English :-)

Posted: **Wed May 08, 2024 3:33 pm**

As a studio muscian, sideman, touring musician for the last 50 years I've had numerous instances where I've needed to digitize, tweak, remaster, etc. audio files whether recorded by me or from media given to me from the venues I've played in. Other than that, I create audio/visual material for a number of university profs and lecturers who are doing online courses and require help.

All of this work is done (now and in the past) on my rigs that utilize a Linux OS and FOSS software included in the standard repos. Since 2017, I've been using MX Linux as my daily driver. The present iteration (MX-23) has everthing I need to perform my audio/visual tasks. Exceptions from what I can install from Synaptic (e.g., Ardour, Audacity, Ladspa Plugins, LMMS, LV2 Plugins, Qsynth, Qjackctl, Rosegarden) would be recent AppImages (Shotcut, CinelerraGG, Qtractor, Avidemux, Krita, Kdenlive, Musescore) along with Reaper on Wine-Staging with a few Vsts mostly Reverbs, Compression, and Mastering (all freeware .dlls). Absolutely no reason to use anything from MX's Test Repos unless you need better Firewire support, then install ALL the Pipewire, Wireplumber, and Qpwgraph upgrades from the MX Pkg. Manager Test Repos ... Long-story-short, it's easy-peasy rolling your own MX multimedia provisions. For me everything just works, the only caveat being Ardour not being able to use Jack (as GMaq points out, use ALSA as the back-end). Qtractor (latest AppImage), Qsynth, Rosegarden, function perfectly with Qjackctl.

Given that a user is already familiar with MX Linux, and that their hardware flawlessly supports it, there's no reason whatsoever for someone not to be able to roll their own multimedia workhorse.

Now to AVLinux ... GMaq has done an incredible job (actually, a herculean task!) in presenting the functionality of using Pipewire and also Qpwgraph as an alternative to Qjackctrl. This is an important and gargantuan step to take insofar as PW is the future Linux sound-server. His is the ONLY multimedia Distro to have come to grips with this innovation. With the dated version of PW in MX-23 that he had to work with, it is quite remarkable. For many seasoned music-creators with compatible rigs, the system works perfectly OOTB. For others, there seem to be many problems as witnessed here as well as in the LinuxMusicians Forum. Given the fact that MX-23 has an EOL of 2028, GMaq would have plenty of time to reckon with the most recent version of PW for better all-round support, including Jack. Maybe it just might cure Ardour-Jack woes insofar as some users need to stream audio/visual creations from Ardour.

On the other hand, I agree that there is simply too much bloat with GMaq's latest creation due to the inclusion/intrusion of commercial demo-ware. Unnecessary, except for the fact that he seems to want to demo his configuration prowess, e.g. using Yadbridge to implement Win-Vsts in a Linux-based environment. You don't need all those examples to make your point! Mixbus? Reaper Linux-Beta? Total overkill ... a huge ISO. Then there's his idiosyncratic, personal choice of the Enlightenment desktop (MX gives you Fluxbox as a lightweight alternative). OK, his is a Re-spin and he'll say "...if it doesn't suit you, don't use it...". I agree, but, apparently, it doesn't suit a lot of folks from all the posts (not just here) that I've looked at. Some just try it then scrap it, others perform a massive clean-up to get rid of stuff they don't want/need.

Finally, there's absolutely no need for "What about a regular MX Linux with AV Linux config?". Seasoned audiophiles should and could roll their own ... and to this end, I would be glad to help.

Posted: **Wed May 08, 2024 9:53 pm**

Hi,

Perhaps @Zeke and @Karl Marx have missed the 1-click "Demoremove" menu option to remove all non-FOSS Recording Applications and Plugins, yes I included a lot of choices and still remained mindful of making it VERY easy to run a FOSS version if that's what the User prefers..

Zeke, I didn't really enjoy your passive aggressive pat-on-the-back-with-one-hand-and-slap-to-the-face-with-the-other routine at Linuxmusicians.com and I enjoy it less here..

If you're happy with Vanilla MX, that's wonderful but then there is no reason to post in this thread other than to again point out (somewhere new) that you don't like AV Linux. You say there is no need to make a Vanilla MX with Audio performance tweaks and then say people should "roll their own" and you will be "glad to help"...?

If this idea is so useless what is there to be rolling or helping with? The whole idea of the thread is basically to do exactly what you are talking about so I'm very confused about WTF your point is...?

Posted: **Thu May 09, 2024 11:54 am**

Obviously GMaq's frustration is apparent. Not only is my post misread as an attack, but the claim is made that "The whole idea of the thread is basically to do exactly what you are talking about so I'm very confused about WTF your point is...?". This is a very wrong assertion. My claim is that it is NOT necessary to implement any of the Extras he proposes if one decides to use a Vanilla MX-23. As I've said, the roll-your-own option doesn't require these additions ... everything just works without them. That's what I am talking about ... and it's quite different than what he wants to do. Is he still confused? If so, he should feel free to respond without abbreviated profanities please. It's not appreciated by me nor by anyone else in a public forum.

It would serve people better here if GMaq would specify, in detail, what he means by add-ons like:

(1) "Liquorix Kernel" --- one size doesn't fit all. On MX-23, In my specific hardware case, I found that Liquorix v.6.3.9 functions better than higher releases. I did have to experiment a bit to get the right match. Many users on this Forum have had to do the same depending on their hardware. BTW, antix-5.10.197 kernel performs just as well regarding latency. Again, I repeat, one size doesn't fit all! Right there is a big minus for this so-called tweak. Same goes for the latest AVLinux-MXE. I guess GMaq never thought about that!

(2) "AV Linux performance configurations" and to what extent, if any, would they be useful?

(3) "AV Linux utilities and helper scripts" (YADbridge, Wine-Audio-Utils, Sysedit) --- Why? Not necessary when rolling your own simple setup. Native Linux plugins (Ladspa, LV2, etc., are more than enough to get you covered.

Not all are familiar with aspects of these proposals and I think that they require elucidation so as to receive more enightened

feedback.

P.S.
I am not interested in a back-and-forth with GMaq. I only want to reiterate that he created his AVLinux-MXE 23 for himself and shares it with others. That's admirable. Yet the feedback, here and elsewhere, has proven that not all are happy with it for various reasons. He knows/admits that; therefore, he initiated this thread. Quite transparent, but doesn't seem to appreciate my critiques or suggestions. Too bad ...

Wishing GMaq a fruitful hiatus from all of this. Lots to do on the farm as well as his music performances. Be well!

Posted: **Sat May 11, 2024 11:23 am**

AVLinux wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 9:53 pm Hi,

Perhaps @Zeke and @Karl Marx have missed the 1-click "Demoremove" menu option to remove all non-FOSS Recording Applications and Plugins, yes I included a lot of choices and still remained mindful of making it VERY easy to run a FOSS version if that's what the User prefers..

Zeke, I didn't really enjoy your passive aggressive pat-on-the-back-with-one-hand-and-slap-to-the-face-with-the-other routine at Linuxmusicians.com and I enjoy it less here..

If you're happy with Vanilla MX, that's wonderful but then there is no reason to post in this thread other than to again point out (somewhere new) that you don't like AV Linux. You say there is no need to make a Vanilla MX with Audio performance tweaks and then say people should "roll their own" and you will be "glad to help"...?

If this idea is so useless what is there to be rolling or helping with? The whole idea of the thread is basically to do exactly what you are talking about so I'm very confused about WTF your point is...?

Thanks for your replay.

1. First of all, I'm pretty sure that I made some points, that are somehow different from that, what Mr. Zeke wrote. No, I did not miss the 1-click "Demoremove"! That's precisely the reason why I mentioned the opt-in and the opt-out variants. The first one is just more the GNU/Linux-Way that respects your freedom, and the second one is not. You are long enough around to remember what happened, when Ubuntu came whit telemetry enabled per default, although the user could opt out of it? Well the GNU/Linux-Community did not like it, and for good reasons! Same whit Audacity after the akquisition. Well, some how the case of AVLinux is not that different and for sure even more problematic. In your replay you did not really address the issue.
2. You did not say anything about the contradiction between Enlightenment, witch relies heavy on systemd, and the fact, that MX-Linux is somehow a distro for people who don't really like it, or are even strongly opposed to it. Where is the above part from MX-Linux in AVLinux-MXE, that seams to be important for MX-Linux makers and users?
3. You must have overlooked my other remark, about all the software, that is FOSS in itself, but serves only one purpose: To allow users to use, proprietary, non-free software. This means that WINE, Wine-Audio-Utils and YADBridge, are also packages for the non-free user, that are pushed on every-user. Every unnecessary line of code, software package, or evil proprietary program is a potential problem, resources hog or security risk.
4. My last Point -> To use, or promote non-free software is, in my mind, somehow contra-productive and not really the FOSS-GNU/Linux-Way.
Why support, or use proprietary software, when the software makers, are not really interested to support you, the FOSS-user? They just don' care. And lets be honest, the philosophy behind GNU/Linux stands for free (as in freedom) licenses, and for good reasons. I don't get it. Why waste resources, time and money on products and corporations, that do not live up to the FOSS-standards? Isn't it better to support only software makers that respect your freedom?
Even native software like Reaper, Bitwig, Waveform etc. is not free. Every second spend on non-free solutions, is wasted and missed on the free side. Isn't it?

Just my 2 cents.
Greetings :-)

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2024 11:53 am**

@Karl Marx

You make a lot of assumptions about my motivations and you also project a lot of your own ideas about an established "FOSS GNU Linux way" that I am somehow being antagonistic toward and "not respecting people's freedom"...

Of course you are entitled to your opinions and entitled to share them here, but they are in the end your opinions...

You could also argue I am being ultimately respectful of people's freedom by allowing them all possible choices to use a Production Studio based on Linux with all technologies that are available to make it as functional and comparable to other Production platforms. AV Linux has featured closed source Applications and Plugins almost since it began in 2008, I had Reaper (with Wine), energyXT and linuxDSP Plugins included for many years before now so it has always been obvious AV Linux has always embraced the excellence of FOSS and combined it with carefully selected closed-source software based on User requests and the real world needs of those intending to do unlimited world-class production on a Linux system. The notion that software is "evil" merely because it's source code is not publicly accessible is once again an opinion not reality, indeed the biggest recent threat to Linux was via malicious Linux code in the Open-Source XZ compression library... which demonstrates that code is code and it can be employed maliciously or beneficially regardless of it's source and secondly the malicious XZ code was right there in the open to the project developers and even that did not guarantee User safety.

As far as MX Linux and Enlightenment's requirement of systemd... I am not under the official umbrella of MX variants, I am a friend and supporter to the MX project using it's build toolchain, I as an arms-length entity do not have an official mission statement promising full functionality with all potential init systems, AV Linux simply uses what init systems are necessary to support the Operating system as presented and in the most recent version systemd is the best solution due to the requirements of the Enlightenment Desktop Environment..

I am completely non-partisan about FOSS vs. Proprietary, Linux vs. Windows or OSX, sysvinit vs. systemd and all related arguments, since AV Linux is a freely provided product with absolutely no implied guarantee I am not beholden to adhere to or embrace any political software ideology and I am not impinging on anyone's freedom since they have full freedom of choice to ignore or evaluate AV Linux at their discretion.

It is clearly not a FOSS-only product and there is no goal to make it so, it will use whatever init system makes the most operational sense and there is no goal to change that. If you want a completely FOSS system to create a production Studio and you insist on not using systemd then it really sounds like the antiX project is exactly the type of thing that will be to your liking in many ways!

Posted: **Tue May 28, 2024 5:17 am**

Hi. After two trials (January and April versions) and 2 weeks after installation on the hard drive, I have to agree with the criticism in the technical area. On a computer where it has been going for more than 2 years, the AV version of Linux with OpenBox (see below for details) is a highly unstable system. It's not even about the new desktop environment, because it's a matter of taste, you know. Probably to some extent it's a matter of getting used to it, and probably after a month of daily use most would have a different outlook. It's simply that it's a system that is, at the moment, a negation of a work-ready system. I had to spend an entire day fixing problems with certificates, with authorization, with strange behaviour of windows, and I was still left with many unexpected issues. Simply put, once something works, and other times without making any changes to the software it crashes. This is indicative of the instability and probably not completely successful fusion of MX Linux with the new environment as a universal system for any machine.

The system wants to log in, by the way, only from the version with Systemd, but still with problems. Sometimes it crashes after logging in, and almost always I have to log in twice to get to the desktop environment. The system with automatic login in me does not work completely. Making a live version from a snapshot doesn't work either. The system does not log in. Which is a serious drawback of losing the functionality of MX Linux and Antix.

From my point of view, you should answer Yourself whether you want to create a system for others or for yourself and share it with others. If for yourself then understand it perfectly and I have no complaints. I am very grateful. I have been using for more than two years for audio production. Mainly podcast.

However, if for others then in my opinion it would be better to simply stay on the environment supported by the entire MX Linux community and AV Linux would just be a regular respin. In such a situation it would be much faster to solve any problems, and also the system itself would be universal and stable. After all, in a system designed for specific music applications, it's not so much about the looks of the environment, but the functionality and, above all, the lack of reliability and quick troubleshooting after getting help.

If you would like to further develop the project in the direction of being universal for others then I would be happy to install it experimentally on a second disk and present you with all the problems I have found.

I personally use the Open Box version all the time. It is incredibly stable. If nothing happens by the end of MX 21 release support, I guess I'll have to switch to something else like Ubunto Studio.

-Computer- DELL OPTIPLEX 7020
Processor : Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4590 CPU @ 3.30GHz
Memory : 16287MB (1811MB used)
Machine Type : Space-saving
Operating System : Debian GNU/Linux 11 (bullseye)

Posted: **Wed May 29, 2024 4:05 am**

Apologies first: I am off topic
A simple question !
Is there "" somewhere "" an AVLinux edition with XFCE I can download.
I do not want the E edition ( not for technical , but private reasons )
Thanks

Posted: **Wed May 29, 2024 4:54 pm**

@Tony45
I came here looking for same. But so far I have used MX23 with xfce. I have ardour7 from the repo & ardour 8 from AVLinux's index of packages. Both work. I installed pipewire from the repo & the pipewire-setup-mx (or something similar u'll know it when u see it). Removed Jack & pulseaudio. Installed the latest Liquorix kernel, then one came out since & I installed that. I used from his index of packages, the realtime quick scan. On all the places it said i needed improvement, I was easily able to figure out how to get a check mark for each one. I asked chatgpt3.5, the free one without login, to ask how to do some of the things. I had Xs on several but now I have 12/13 in good standing.

Right now my ardour with pipewire (actuallly select jack in ardour becuz ardour does not show pipewire, but I'm deff using pw as jack is uninstalled & there's a pipewire package that serves to pretend it's jack to applications) is set at 128 samples buffersize, & 48khz rate. I have 2.7ms latency with no xruns. That's only messing around with a mic thru an audio interface into ardour & listening to input & playback to see if it works.

Idk if I'll use vst plugins but I installed the wine audio utilities from his index of custom packages. It opens from the MX menu but selecting options like settings, configuration & Run WineASIO do nothing. I typed wine (tab completed wineasio64) in a terminal& it said it was running then to close the terminal. Idk what that means. I'm wondering if the repo packages wineasio-amd64 will serve teh purpose of making the plugins work, but I think I'll just forgo them for now. Tho come to think of it, the terminal command was wineasio64 so maybe that's what the utility is, plus it has a config & a settings option. So that package is wortha try.

I spent an hour on that avlinux desktop that starts with an E (I forgot the name). I couldn't stand it, trying to use the interfaces to customize. It was so buggy too. Like I selected a window theme, then the title bars of windows started sliding off the window frame lol.

MX23, MintDebian with Cinnamon, both work great on this laptop. I'd successfully recorded using the Mint I have installed on it with Audacity. Not for music so wasn't looking at quality issues, but it worked fine with no set up, just plugged my Behringer umc404 interface in & it worked. So I think the laptop is plenty good enuf. But I really tried to be patient even tho I instantly hated it, but that environment was killing me. I even logged out & logged back in with openbox that it comes with & was instantly relieved. U can use tasksel to install other desktops on it, but I only spent a brief time with mate & a couple others before I was tired, then woke up to decide I'd use MX23 with XFCE which is already great.

Posted: **Wed May 29, 2024 5:18 pm**

@AVLinux
is there any reason why using tasksel to install a different desktop won't work with avlinux? I spent an hour with Enlightenment while watching yr video. It seemed broken & the customization menus were so hard to use. I gave up after 10 minutes of wanting to set some keyboard shortcuts. The window themeing bugged out & at one point the window title bars were sliding off the frames instead of actually being able to click the window buttons.

When I lost patience I briefly tried Mate, Cinnamon, LXDE & another, just to see what would happen. Superficially it functions, but I was on a live usb which eventually I think the ram got tired of desktops being added, & the next day instead of installing avlinux I decided to tweak my MX23 with xfce.

With the liquorix kernel & using the realtime quick config until I got 12/13 issues checked off. I've got ardour working with 2.7ms latency just using pipewire with the mx setup package & all the associated packages that make it work in place of jack & pulse. Yr Wine utility installed, & even opened, but none of the 3 options do anything. I double click or select & Enter it does nothing. I even typed wineasio64 in a terminal wich said it was now running but Idk. I figure I'll try the repo's wineASIOamd64 package if I want a vst plugin.

I'm just curious what the drawbacks would be of using tasksel to install a different desktop? I know near nothing about how desktop's interact. I do know that I tried a Debian once, with several DEs installed. When I tried the KDE whcih was really cool, it caused my computer to freeze & lag. Then I read that Debian & KDE don't work well together (i was scared my newly refurbished laptop was actually sucking so that was a relief).

Posted: **Wed May 29, 2024 5:39 pm**

Tony45 wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 4:05 am Apologies first: I am off topic
A simple question !
Is there "" somewhere "" an AVLinux edition with XFCE I can download.
I do not want the E edition ( not for technical , but private reasons )
Thanks

He still has the mirror up for the MX-21 version of AVL.
https://downloads.bandshed.net/AVL-MXE-21.3/

Posted: **Wed May 29, 2024 5:46 pm**

@MelodyNaive

You can certainly install other Desktop Environments into AV Linux if you want from the MX Package Installer, some Menu items and customizations may not appear as they are intended, if you remove Thunar (ie install KDE with Dolphin) you will lose dozens of handy specialized Custom Actions... I test installed XFCE4 on my development box and it worked as expected although I uninstalled it within minutes due to it's terribly broken handling of it's native scaling on a 4K monitor..

Posted: **Wed May 29, 2024 6:50 pm**

AVLinux wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 5:46 pm @MelodyNaive

You can certainly install other Desktop Environments into AV Linux if you want from the MX Package Installer, some Menu items and customizations may not appear as they are intended, if you remove Thunar you will lose dozens of specialized Custom Actions... I test installed XFCE4 on my development box and it worked as expected although I uninstalled it within minutes due to it's terribly broken handling of it's native scaling on a 4K monitor..

Thank you. I don't really know what is included in a DE. Seems like all the same apps are around when I switched. I might be limited by using a 10yo laptop.

What does "udev-rules-ardour" do? I get that it puts a config file(s) in /etc/udev/rules.d. But I just installed it in this MX23 xfce that I fixed up using the realtime quick config's help, to be supposedly audio ready. I rebooted & now I can't find any difference in how Ardour interacts with my hardware (only DAW I am using right now with a laptop & audio interface) than before.

I did already spend a bunch of time with the pipewire qpwgraph hooking up in & outs, so maybe udev-rules-ardour woulda done that for me default? Tho last night I did:

copy /usr/share/doc/pipewire/examples/ld.so.conf.d/pipewire-jack-x86*.conf
to
/etc/ld.so.conf.d/
then did ldconfig to get it working last night. IIrc I couldn't get ardour to use pipewire through its JACK option (audacity has a pipewire option but not ardour). A redditor gave that command to someone & it worked for me. It supposedly tells programs that use jack to use pipewire.

Does udev-rules-ardour accomplish something similar thru a different means?

Posted: **Wed May 29, 2024 7:42 pm**

So you see that AV Linux has several tweaks and conveniences that MX doesn't do by default..

'udev-rules-ardour' has nothing to do with routing Audio, they are a set of udev rules to enable better hardware performance of certain specific devices and improve Ardour's latency by setting udev permissions for CPU's that support setting latency dma variables.

https://github.com/Ardour/ardour/tree/master/tools/udev

Posted: **Wed May 29, 2024 8:53 pm**

@siamhe
Thanks for the link. That's what I was looking for.
I had been at bandshed-net several times, but didn't see the 21.3.
I must be getting old. Maybe using binoculars instead of reading glasses might help

Posted: **Wed May 29, 2024 11:53 pm**

Tony45 wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 8:53 pm @siamhe
Thanks for the link. That's what I was looking for.
I had been at bandshed-net several times, but didn't see the 21.3.
I must be getting old. Maybe using binoculars instead of reading glasses might help

@Tony45 You won't find any links to MX-21 AVL on the web site because he is supporting the MX-23 version now.
I just back tracked the hosting link and saw the MX-21 directory.

Posted: **Thu May 30, 2024 12:23 am**

@siamhie
Yes, I realized this later on.
Regardless, Thank you.
I had a look at it on USB and I like what I see.
EDIT
I installed on HD + fully updated + working snapshot
All seems OK
Thanks

Posted: **Thu May 30, 2024 7:47 am**

siamhie wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 11:53 pm ...
@Tony45 You won't find any links to MX-21 AVL on the web site because he is supporting the MX-23 version now.
I just back tracked the hosting link and saw the MX-21 directory.

Where should I upload AV_Linux_MX_Edition-21.3_ahs_x64.iso?

Posted: **Thu May 30, 2024 7:55 am**

Are you intending to share a respin of AVL?

Posted: **Thu May 30, 2024 8:08 am**

Before I would have to investigate if I can solve my problem with MS Office under wine in that version.
Other question would be if I could use pipewie/wireplumber.

Posted: **Thu May 30, 2024 3:02 pm**

AVL 21.3 uses the former JACK/Pulse/pajackconnect Audio setup which worked very well at the time, it is based on MX-21 and Debian 11 (oldstable) and unless you want to root around in 'debian-backports-sloppy' or compile PipeWire and new dependencies for yourself you will not get up to date PipeWire Packages in there, even mighty @Stevo isn't maintaining Pipewire for MX-21 based systems because the supporting dependencies have changed too much. I'm fine with and encourage using MX's Snapshot to craft your own AV Linux build but if you're going to share it with others you will need to make a clear name change and indicate it is a Respin please.

In general I'm extremely puzzled why people gripe about the new AVL-23 Enlightenment Desktop and and vaguely complain they "don't like it" or "can't get things to work" but I get pitifully few specific questions about actual issues like "How do I change the Icon theme?" or "How can I add a new wallpaper?" or "this Program isn't launching" I feel like I receive far more opinions than actual bug reports and I can give usage instructions but I'm not in the business of changing opinions...

Posted: **Thu May 30, 2024 9:46 pm**

@ AVLinux
--->>In general I'm extremely puzzled why people....this and that
--Habits---Freedom of choice---preferences---Needs that change over time---
Enlightenment might be the lightest and therefore be the best, but ....
If I use Enlightenment, my eyes get confused all the time
If I use Xfce, I don't need my eyes, "as my fingers are doing the walking"
and just to be sure, I installed Nemo FM (menu/view/list...ctrl+mousewheel)
Thanks a lot for a fantastic "21" release

Posted: **Fri May 31, 2024 1:46 am**

This statement is perhaps not so representative, because I do not make a lot with sound and video. So it doesn't matter if you simply ignore it.

But when I was in MX-19 Xfce I decided to use AV Linux Xfce when I do need to upgrade. Do I absolutely need it? No.
So why have I decided to upgrade to AV Linux a year or so ago? Answer: Just because I would have more functionality and possibility.

But then it was told, that AV Linux 23 will no longer be available in Xfce. I am pretty sure, that Enlightenment may be a very interesting DE. But I do not want to change from Xfce. Only because I got used to Xfce. I might have switched to AV-Linux if it had been available on KDE. But Enlightenment is too different.

That is not a criticism. It just didn't fit for me. But I'm well aware that I'm not necessarily part of your target group.

Posted: **Tue Nov 19, 2024 8:58 am**

For me is all the fuzz and yelling because we are thrown in the deep,with pipewire in the OS and Glen who finally stay with enlightment. I still hate pipewire for the for me mystery settings or your to use wireplumber,made me think O Dear the drain is plugged with crooked notes.For me its still aba cadabra how all should work.

Posted: **Tue Nov 19, 2024 9:26 am**

Hi @Be OK !

If I did make an MX XFCE or KDE ISO with AV Linux config added you would still get PipeWire, just with a few extra tools.. PipeWire is what Audio on Linux is now and it was smart for MX to get on board with a good implementation of it, I don't prefer it either and it has some issues but both PulseAudio and JACK will fade from being properly maintained any more and more Desktop Environments and Applications will have hard dependencies on PipeWire just like they did which forced the use of PulseAudio many years ago... The next thing will be Wayland and it will be the same scenario, so that is the nature of Linux, it is not a long-term backward-compatible OS which makes it a maddeningly good and terrible platform for a multimedia workstation.

If you tell me what programs you use on AV Linux and how you want them to work I can try and help you figure out how to best use them with PipeWire.

Posted: **Wed Nov 20, 2024 8:10 pm**

Hi, Glen. I've tried with enlightenment, but man, I haven't felt like such a beginner in years. There's no big thing wrong with it, just a passel of what I consider micro-annoyances. And for sure it is mostly me not being used to it. The one weird gripe is occasionally the ui is not all drawn. Now I could investigate and troubleshoot, but right now I have my hands full just learning Ardour and Musescore. I didnt think I'd have a problem with it because I'm comfortable with XFCE, Gnome, and Plasma, and even a tiler here and there. Right now I'm heading back to XFCE and will check back with AVLINUX one I start seriously recording.

Thanks for all your hard work.

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2024 11:02 am**

tomcashen wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 8:10 pm Hi, Glen. I've tried with enlightenment, but man, I haven't felt like such a beginner in years. There's no big thing wrong with it, just a passel of what I consider micro-annoyances. And for sure it is mostly me not being used to it. The one weird gripe is occasionally the ui is not all drawn. Now I could investigate and troubleshoot, but right now I have my hands full just learning Ardour and Musescore. I didnt think I'd have a problem with it because I'm comfortable with XFCE, Gnome, and Plasma, and even a tiler here and there. Right now I'm heading back to XFCE and will check back with AVLINUX one I start seriously recording.

Thanks for all your hard work.

Hi, I get your point, although if actual parts of the UI are missing that seems to point to Video card or OpenGL problems, Enlightenment has it's quirks for sure but the UI not working is not a feature...lol.. Work is ongoing to make Enlightenment work smoother out of the box and a short(er) Video about setting it up is planned. If you haven't already watched the AVL 23 release Video on the AVL website I strongly suggest it, it is packed with Enlightenment info.

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2024 1:29 pm**

As always Glen Never a bad word for you, respect all the people who do this in there free time,no sir chapeau.
I will try the xfce version, solve some things but i must confess you video was a big help in the beginning.
And i am to blame for being a grumpy old man that loose many things many take for granted. So as you always offer to help a thank you you singing XXXX lol.
With many greetings Jan

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2024 7:17 pm**

How might I change the desktop environment and display manager after installing AV Linux?

I'm trying to repurpose a so-called thin client PC and am finding a difference between how much the GPU is being utilized differently, using radeontop, between AV Linux and Lubuntu (not Ubuntu).

I don't see this as being so much about Ubuntu (and its flavors) vs MX Linux (and its flavors including AV Linux) as much as it is about LXQt and sddm vs what is used by AV Linux but I could be mistaken.

I'm wondering how difficult it may be to install LXQt and sddm on top of AV Linux.

As for the thin client PC, it's an HP T620, a rather unremarkable PC with the single exception of being small, fanless and completely silent.

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2024 7:53 pm**

"... if actual parts of the UI are missing that seems to point to Video card or OpenGL problems..."

I am sure you are correct, sir. And yes, I have watched your excellent video, which actually inspired me to take AVLINUX for a test drive and be excited about Enlightenment for a time.

But for me it's timing. I'm newly retired and just getting my feet wet in music production. Learning a new interface is not part of that plan. Don't get me wrong. In the past few years, THAT was my casual hobby. From ganome to gahyprland, I had fun with exploring the ideas of others. MX played a big part in helping understand Linux in general. Gratitude for all involved. Your work has also helped me develop a framework for exploring all that I need to learn to get this music that been rattling in my brain for 40 some years into my grandchildren's ears.

Nowadays, tho, correcting muscle memory to the point that I can stop saying bad words every time I double click a title bar is probably too much for this old man.

If you do build Avlinux atop the MX XFCE, that will absolutely be my studio machine.

Posted: **Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:43 pm**

If you do build Avlinux atop the MX XFCE, that will absolutely be my studio machine.

I support that

Posted: **Mon Nov 25, 2024 9:22 pm**

Hello,

I cannot fathom why the developer of AVLinux decided to destroy their reputation, and the distro, with this 'Enlightenment' mess.... Completely disarmed by the choice.

Are we able to get xfce4 back on AVLinux again?

Also, I tried downloading the last version with xfce, AVLinux 21.3, but the links to the download have been broken by the dev!! O.o

Does anyone know how to contact the developer of AVLinux to let them know of all my issues? No contact link on the site, either.

IMHO, if you need a whole instruction video to introduce window management after 30 years, something is badly wrong!

Maybe newbies, who have never used anything better, will stick with it, but given the plethora of other, better, window managers out there, Enlightenment is at the bottom of the list. It's far too buggy and maliciously un-intuitive. Using it by default was the first mistake. Not adding a 'switch to xfce4' button was the 2nd.

Many thanks.

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:20 am**

another_account wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2024 9:22 pmAre we able to get xfce4 back on AVLinux again?

Just install it with MXPI or

Code: Select all

apt install xfce4

I installed KDE Plasma on the latest AVL-MXE and it works fine

Does anyone know how to contact the developer of AVLinux to let them know of all my issues? No contact link on the site, either.

You just did. OP of this topic is the AVL developer.

Or you could read the dozens of other posts by people who don't understand Enlightenment.

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 1:02 am**

Awesome. Thank you for the info.

Last time I used KDE, it was had a problem replicating buttons and interface elements :/ It must be much better now.

I think understanding and accepting are two different things.

If it can't draw menus properly, red flag.

If the system menu is botched and glitchy, red flag.

It's so bad, even the AV Linux dev himself replaces it, red flag.

Please, drop Enlightenment. It has an unreasonable learning curve, which kinda ruins the expectation of upgrading your AVLinux box. You expect an upgrade and you get a complete refit and you're instantly on the back foot... All before actually using the system for what you installed it for.

I don't understand the decision to create a learning curve where none should exist. Why not just make a WM picker like Debian, Zorin or the like rather than forcing this thing on people?

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 1:34 am**

@another_account Wow, have you even read any of the content in this thread? I think not because if you did, you would have realized Glen who started this thread IS THE DEVELOPER and the thing you seek has already been covered in this thread twice.
Add to that Glenn has heard more opinions than legit queries he can answer to.

Had you truly appreciated Glenn's work and that of the MX devs that went the extra mile to help him to get this gargantuan project off the line, and learned the reason behind his very difficult choice to use E, you might have not criticised his choice and reasoning for using it.

Fluxbox in it's default form is not a thing of beauty, but a dedicated small team made it better than it's ever been in any prior iteration. It's not for everyone, but at least a point and click user can get around it.

We're not talking about Fluxbox here, but we will not denounce anyone who has ideas, passion and the drive to make a Steak meal out of a sows ear ( I know sorry, bad analogy) we will not denigrate that one.

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:43 am**

m_pav wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 1:34 am @another_account Wow, have you even read any of the content in this thread? I think not because if you did, you would have realized Glen who started this thread IS THE DEVELOPER and the thing you seek has already been covered in this thread twice.
Add to that Glenn has heard more opinions than legit queries he can answer to.

Had you truly appreciated Glenn's work and that of the MX devs that went the extra mile to help him to get this gargantuan project off the line, and learned the reason behind his very difficult choice to use E, you might have not criticised his choice and reasoning for using it.

Fluxbox in it's default form is not a thing of beauty, but a dedicated small team made it better than it's ever been in any prior iteration. It's not for everyone, but at least a point and click user can get around it.

If there's something people have in abundance, it's opinions.

Ok. I did read a few of the 7 pages in this thread before I realised I read nothing of relevance and my frustration kicked in, again.

After a while, faced with the prospect of dealing with potentially more irrelevant conversational text, I decided I would simply ask, one of the simpler and more affirmative actions, since this was the least stressful thing for me to do.

It was also easier than trawling through pages of random people's conversations.

Forums are good for general, roundabout conversations on any given topic, but they're no replacement for structured documentation. Maybe, if you want fewer subjectivity and opinions, maybe you should use a platform with more structure and features for performing technical support? O.o

After talking with developers of another forum platform, Discuss, they agreed that it's no good for technical support and offered alternatives. But it is still being used for technical support lol

The lack of organisation makes it hard to find relevant, applicable information.

I am terribly sorry, but I didn't come here for a social interaction, I was hoping to find out something quite simple.

But, after searching the web and not finding any reference, I came to this forum (my last choice, tbh) posted a question on a thread returned from a search, which didn't initially show anything of use to me, but I followed it anyway to make sure.

The sheer number of posts and walls of text to go through, the specific terms and turns of phrase I have to search for, coupled with the frustrations of not having a simple manual.

While the forums structure was not a problem with a few dozen members, nowadays forums are an inefficient vestigial artefact of the 90s Internet.

Structured information is not the purpose of a forum. Using one is a 'time-saving exercise' IMHO. It forgoes consistency, structure and accessibility.

m_pav wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 1:34 am We're not talking about Fluxbox here, but we will not denounce anyone who has ideas, passion and the drive to make a Steak meal out of a sows ear ( I know sorry, bad analogy) we will not denigrate that one.

Now, I have no idea what you mean about Fluxbox and denegration :/ This is why I see forums as a clique and assumptive. Is that an in-joke?

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:50 am**

Did you pay for AV Linux? I find your entitlement astounding. How dare the developer make a decision that inconvenienced YOU!

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:57 am**

Shot:

another_account wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:43 am Forums are good for general conversations on a topic

if you want fewer opinions, maybe don't use a social platform?

Chaser:

another_account wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:43 am I am terribly sorry, but I didn't come here for a social interaction

Translation: "I came to a social platform to complain because I recognize it's an easy place to start a dialogue, but I don't want to start a dialogue. I just want to complain. Capitulate to me."

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 11:11 am**

@another_account You will either become a normal participant of the forum, or you will leave, but we do not cater to other peoples' whims. Thanks.

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 11:47 am**

@another_account

I'm the maintainer of AV Linux, I had to sleep on this before replying here, and thanks to others for replying and for your support.

First, I wouldn't talk to a dog let alone a total stranger the way you have 'said hello' here, projects are people, Linux projects are mostly people doing something in their spare time out of the love of doing it and when you do something you love you there is an emotional attachment.. That doesn't mean you have to like everything about it because we all have opinions, but I do expect people to be polite at the very least when they voice those opinions. I value feedback and do what I can in most cases to improve things but nobody likes to be talked down to..

Enlightenment is a Desktop, a Panel and some Icons just like everything else out there, sure some settings are different and a few things are in different places. Thunar from XFCE4 is there which is the core of XFCE4 so this isn't really that radically different but because I knew it would be a big change I took the time to make a release Video to help identify those differences. I've used Enlightenment daily on several machines for about 4 years now and in no way has it been an impediment to doing Audio and Video production and I love it and it's not going anywhere. Work is ongoing to take the feedback from the AV Linux 23 release and help streamline things and make Enlightenment work better and the MX Linux developers have been extremely helpful at helping with making the Live ISO and installation more suited to Enlightenment's needs for future releases. Work is also ongoing to isolate the AV Linux utilities and tools and make them self-contained to be installed in any MX Linux variant but all of this takes TIME outside of work and family so it doesn't happen instantly. If none of that is acceptable then as others have said XFCE4 or KDE are easily installed from the Package Manager, I myself tested KDE for a few months and although it is quite nice it wasn't a step forward and is quite complicated to fully customize for deployment. AV Linux isn't the only game in town, there is Ubuntu Studio or repository-based overlays like LibraZik or GeekOSDAW for openSUSE..

As far as AV Linux 21.3 being available I pay for my own VPS out of pocket for ISO hosting and I have limited space and only link the most recent version on my website however I still host it and it can be found here:
https://downloads.bandshed.net/AVL-MXE-21.3/

On this topic as soon as my work schedule clears I will be putting out a "10 things I hate about Enlightenment" Video that will illustrate some differences, quirks and workarounds..

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:18 pm**

DukeComposed wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:57 am Shot:

another_account wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:43 am Forums are good for general conversations on a topic

if you want fewer opinions, maybe don't use a social platform?
Chaser:

another_account wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:43 am I am terribly sorry, but I didn't come here for a social interaction
Translation: "I came to a social platform to complain because I recognize it's an easy place to start a dialogue, but I don't want to start a dialogue. I just want to complain. Capitulate to me."

Correction: "I see a link to a forum. I search the site looking for the required information or at least a manual. Can't find what I need. See the forum link again... So I search with Google but find nothing relevant, again... I look at the forum link a third time and sigh... I recognise that forums are social platforms and I may not be able to find the information I need. Anxiety time. I overcome my detestation and REGISTER on the forum, handing over personal details to a platform I already have reservations about. I search the platform and get myriad of possibly partly relevant results. I try to find an applicable one and read. After ~3 pages of paragraphed text, my ADHD kicks in and I stop being able to read and take things in and I get more frustrated... 'Why can't I just find this one little piece of information? WHY do I have to engage with random people? Just this one little change and I can get on with using setting up this PC for recording.' Hit a brick wall, so I decide that the best thing I can do is ask the question anyway, what's the worst than could happen? Oh, yeah, the clique. I wanted information, but I got conversation. Now I've wasted 3 hours of my day editing and reediting a response over and over."

But, yeah... Keep assuming things about strangers who use your forum. :/

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:28 pm**

Eadwine Rose wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 11:11 am @another_account You will either become a normal participant of the forum, or you will leave, but we do not cater to other peoples' whims. Thanks.

I think choosing Enlightenment has created more usability issues than keeping xfce4 would have.

It saves 128Mb RAM, but double-clicking on the titlebar shades the window? O_o

Do we all have to start using window shading now? Is that not also a whim? Is Enlightenment's esoteric design not a whim? A flight of fancy? An expedition into the unknown? A risk?

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:32 pm**

AVLinux wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 11:47 am as soon as my work schedule clears I will be putting out a "10 things I hate about Enlightenment" Video that will illustrate some differences, quirks and workarounds..

This sounds like a really neat idea and I look forward to watching it.

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:40 pm**

another_account wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:18 pm After ~3 pages of paragraphed text, my ADHD kicks in and I stop being able to read and take things in and I get more frustrated

Excusing their poor behavior by blaming their ADHD is something children learn not to do. It's an early developmental sign of maturity. A friend of mine has an 11 year old with special needs who's figured this out.

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:46 pm**

Apparently, spending a time typing replies can take longer than the session time-out, so a lot of my replies have been lost. I am too tired to continue typing, now. I've spent ~4 hours rewording and rehashing my replies. I adjust because my tone seems too passive and autistic but then ends up being too aggressive.

I'll stick to talking face to face in future.

Thank you for the information and the work, Glen.

Apologies for the misunderstandings. Although, I can't be responsible for the emotions (however inaccurate) projected onto my text.

Good luck with the forum.

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:48 pm**

DukeComposed wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:40 pm
another_account wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:18 pm After ~3 pages of paragraphed text, my ADHD kicks in and I stop being able to read and take things in and I get more frustrated
Excusing their poor behavior by blaming their ADHD is something children learn not to do. It's an early developmental sign of maturity. A friend of mine has an 11 year old with special needs who's figured this out.

Thank you for the cloaked ad-hoc insult.

FWIW, I am glad they got their diagnosis in childhood before the masking and bad habits settled in.

Thank you for your... understanding.

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:49 pm**

Since the original question as reflected in the topic title has been answered by the developer of the respin I am closing this topic.

MX Linux Forum

What about a regular MX Linux with AV Linux config?

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Can we have XFCE4 back please?

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