MX Linux Forum

I've seen Thinkpads recommended here and I'd like to buy one and install MX onto it.
I want to install it directly out of the box - NO booting at all into windows.
I don't want dual boot.
All guides I can find show how to dual boot or install after going into windows.
Can I do want I want?
How do I to disable fast boot and secure boot on a Thinkpad?
TIA

Resume wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 7:14 am I've seen Thinkpads recommended here and I'd like to buy one and install MX onto it.
I want to install it directly out of the box - NO booting at all into windows.
I don't want dual boot.
All guides I can find show how to dual boot or install after going into windows.
Can I do want I want?
How do I to disable fast boot and secure boot on a Thinkpad?
TIA

Realize that on any laptop made within the last twelve years you will have to boot into Windows at least once to disable Fast Start Up. If the target computer has Win 11 preinstalled, you will need Windows to disable BitLocker encryption as well as Fast Start Up. In all cases, you will also need to disable Secure Boot in the bios.

Listen to John. I have used thinkpads for decades and now with all the new microsoft BS I too needed a bit of help which ohn always helped me on.

I am like you but you need to tweak and shutoff a couple of things or make sure it is already shutoff which happened on my carbon laptop i just got. then install over the whole HD and all is golden!

https://www.thewindowsclub.com/disable- ... in-windows

https://www.howtogeek.com/856514/how-to ... indows-10/

hope these links help a bit

enjoy the thinpad! I love them.

thinkpadx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 8:10 am Listen to ohn. I have used thinkpads for decades and now with all the new microsoft BS I too needed a bit of help which ohn always helped me on.

I am like you but you need to tweak and shutoff a couple of things or make sure it is already shutoff which happened on my carbon laptop i just got. then install over the whole HD and all is golden!

https://www.thewindowsclub.com/disable- ... in-windows

https://www.howtogeek.com/856514/how-to ... indows-10/

hope these links help a bit

enjoy the thinpad! I love them.

I don't think that your "J" key is functioning properly. Its probably got some debris under it which you should be able to remove with some compressed air.

j2mcgreg wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 7:56 am Realize that on any laptop made within the last twelve years you will have to boot into Windows at least once to disable Fast Start Up. If the target computer has Win 11 preinstalled, you will need Windows to disable BitLocker encryption as well as Fast Start Up. In all cases, you will also need to disable Secure Boot in the bios.

If the OP isn't dual-booting, why would he need to Fast Startup and BitLocker encryption? I thought these were just Windows functions, and he will be blowing those away with his MX Linux install. What am I missing?

Chris

chrispop99 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 8:57 am

j2mcgreg wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 7:56 am Realize that on any laptop made within the last twelve years you will have to boot into Windows at least once to disable Fast Start Up. If the target computer has Win 11 preinstalled, you will need Windows to disable BitLocker encryption as well as Fast Start Up. In all cases, you will also need to disable Secure Boot in the bios.

If the OP isn't dual-booting, why would he need to Fast Startup and BitLocker encryption? I thought these were just Windows functions, and he will be blowing those away with his MX Linux install. What am I missing?

Chris

In Win 10 and 11, Microsoft gained the ability to make changes directly to the bios. So now disabling these services can only be done from within Windows. In effect, if a new user were to neglect take these preliminary steps and just proceed to install a distro on the whole drive, he / she would have to reinstall Win 10 or 11 after the fact in order to make the changes.

j2mcgreg wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 9:34 am

chrispop99 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 8:57 am

j2mcgreg wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 7:56 am Realize that on any laptop made within the last twelve years you will have to boot into Windows at least once to disable Fast Start Up. If the target computer has Win 11 preinstalled, you will need Windows to disable BitLocker encryption as well as Fast Start Up. In all cases, you will also need to disable Secure Boot in the bios.

If the OP isn't dual-booting, why would he need to Fast Startup and BitLocker encryption? I thought these were just Windows functions, and he will be blowing those away with his MX Linux install. What am I missing?

Chris

In Win 10 and 11, Microsoft gained the ability to make changes directly to the bios. So now disabling these services can only be done from within Windows. In effect, if a new user were to neglect take these preliminary steps and just proceed to install a distro on the whole drive, he / she would have to reinstall Win 10 or 11 after the fact in order to make the changes.

How would one proceed if you purchased a machine with a W11 install, and wanted change the HDD to install Linux, keeping the original disk if wanting to sell the machine on later? Would that not be possible?

What about a used machine with a broken Window install?

Chris

Thank you @j2mcgreg and @thinkpadx for the clear answers and the great links on "how to".

@chrispop99 wrote:

How would one proceed if you purchased a machine with a W11 install, and wanted change the HDD to install Linux, keeping the original disk if wanting to sell the machine on later? Would that not be possible?

What about a used machine with a broken Window install?

In the early builds of Win 10 and in its predecessors Fast Start Up was a bios switch called Quick Start which anybody with bios access could disable if they wished. In the later Win 10 builds and now in Win 11 it can only be disabled from within that OS. I don't know for sure whether BitLocker also makes changes to the bios, but I do know that when I disabled Secure Boot on my HP 15 and HP 17, I was asked to indicate that I had previously disabled BitLocker and if my intention was to install another operating system, so I assume that it does.
With a machine with a broken Win 10 or Win 11 install, I would reinstall that OS as a first step (provided that the Quick Start bios control wasn't available).

ya sorry john. JJJJJJ

glitchy keyboard - but gets better with use.

If you're planning to install MX on used/refurbished Thinkpad(s), I would suggest you replace the disk with a new one. Everything is just much easier then :)

The MX User Manual is available online. Section 2 covers Installation. The 'How-To' of doing a standard installation begins in section 2.5.1 titled 'Detailed installation steps'.

https://www.mxlinux.org/manuals PDF in multiple languages.

j2mcgreg wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 12:26 pm With a machine with a broken Win 10 or Win 11 install, I would reinstall that OS as a first step (provided that the Quick Start bios control wasn't available).

Thanks MS - what a faff!

Chris

j2mcgreg wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 7:56 am Realize that on any laptop made within the last twelve years you will have to boot into Windows at least once to disable Fast Start Up.

The OP said they want to install Linux as the only operating system on the machine, want to install directly out of the box, and don't wish to use Windows in any way. In cases like this - given that you are able to boot into your installation media - you will not need to boot into Windows to disable Fast Startup first. Just make the installer use the whole disk for Linux, and allow it to format it (to the recommended ext4).

I have tested this on multiple systems, and have installed MX Linux on three personal modern Thinkpads. One of them came with a Windows 10 installation, two of them had Windows 11, one Win11 installation even in the default state from Lenovo. In each case, I did not change anything inside Windows prior to installation, as the end result I was after was what the OP is asking, too; I used the whole disk for the Linux installation, formatted to ext4. The most recent one was a Ryzen 5 Pro system this summer. Again, the Fast Startup setting in Windows will not interfere if literally doing what the OP is wanting to do.

@Nokkaelaein wrote:

In cases like this, you will not need to boot into Windows to disable Fast Startup. Just make the installer use the whole disk for Linux, and allow it to format it (to the recommended ext4).

That's wrong. With the advent of Win 10, the bios control "Quck Start" became the Windows feature "Fast Start Up" and the only way to disable it is within Windows 10 or 11.

j2mcgreg wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2024 10:24 am That's wrong. With the advent of Win 10, the bios control "Quck Start" became the Windows feature "Fast Start Up" and the only way to disable it is within Windows 10 or 11.

Please link a respectable and verifiable source that states you need to disable this in Windows before installing Linux if you are not installing a dual-boot system and not interested in using the existing Windows partition(s) - and instead, using the drive from scratch, creating and formatting ext4 partition(s) on the device.

Also, I repeat, I have literally done this on three modern Thinkpads, one of them having Windows 11 in factory state from Lenovo (just this summer), and turned nothing off in Windows, as I installed Linux as the sole operating system on the machine, formatting to ext4.

Nokkaelaein wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2024 10:37 am

j2mcgreg wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2024 10:24 am That's wrong. With the advent of Win 10, the bios control "Quck Start" became the Windows feature "Fast Start Up" and the only way to disable it is within Windows 10 or 11.

Please link a respectable and verifiable source that states you need to disable this in Windows before installing Linux if you are not installing a dual-boot system and not interested in using the existing Windows partition(s) - and instead, using the drive from scratch, creating and formatting ext4 partition(s) on the device.

Also, I repeat, I have literally done this on three modern Thinkpads, one of them having Windows 11 in factory state from Lenovo (just this summer), and turned nothing off in Windows, as I installed Linux as the sole operating system on the machine, formatting to ext4.

Be that as it may, Fast Start Up is a hidden bios switch whose control has been ceded to Microsoft, but it remains a bios switch. As such it resides in the bios, a location separate from the HDD or SSD. It will remain in play even in situations where an SSD or HDD has been replaced.
As to your argument, Thinkpads may be different, but on the HP, Dell, Ideapads and MSI machines that I have worked on since the introduction of Win 10 it has been necessary to disable Fast Start Up prior to installing Linux.

j2mcgreg wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2024 11:40 am As to your argument, Thinkpads may be different, but on the HP, Dell, Ideapads and MSI machines that I have worked on since the introduction of Win 10 it has been necessary to disable Fast Start Up prior to installing Linux.

Your above "That's wrong" is not manufacturer specific. This is a well-defined claim, about installing by creating the partition(s) from scratch, to which you replied it is wrong. Again, please link a respectable and verifiable source that states you need to disable this in Windows before installing Linux, if you are not installing a dual-boot system, and not interested in using the existing Windows partition(s) - and instead, use the drive from scratch, creating and formatting ext4 partition(s) on the device. Otherwise this is just a pointless back and forth from this point onwards.

(I did a search just now, and find no such source stressing the need to do this. Instead, I can find case examples from people who, for example, forgot to disable this in Windows, on non-Thinkpad systems also, and then were stuck with a read-only Windows partition - but then decided to install Linux from scratch as the sole operating system by completely reformatting to ext4. To reiterate once more, I have installed from scratch multiple times, and have never disabled this in Windows 10/11 prior, and have never seen an official source mentioning this being necessary when installing Linux in this manner.)

@Nokkaelaein You may not have hit this in Thinkpads yet, but in Lenovo's and HP's newer models... it is most definitely "a thing" and has been for several years.

Fast Boot is a feature in UEFI/BIOS that reduces your computer boot time with initialization of a minimal set of devices required to launch active boot option.

Note the "initialization of a minimal set of devices"

https://www.elevenforum.com/t/enable-or ... s-11.4922/

https://www.cgdirector.com/what-is-fast-boot-in-bios/

https://itigic.com/fast-boot-setting-in ... ot-faster/

and a search for "fast boot bios" will lead you to MANY known links.

CharlesV wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2024 12:57 pm @Nokkaelaein You may not have hit this in Thinkpads yet, but in Lenovo's and HP's newer models... it is most definitely "a thing" and has been for several years.

Fast Boot is a feature in UEFI/BIOS that reduces your computer boot time with initialization of a minimal set of devices required to launch active boot option.

Note the "initialization of a minimal set of devices"

https://www.elevenforum.com/t/enable-or ... s-11.4922/

https://www.cgdirector.com/what-is-fast-boot-in-bios/

https://itigic.com/fast-boot-setting-in ... ot-faster/

and a search for "fast boot bios" will lead you to MANY known links.

This is different. This is the Fast Boot functionality of the UEFI/BIOS. Note how the instructions you link describe the settings in the actual BIOS/UEFI setting screen of the computer, the first step literally being "Boot to UEFI BIOS firmware settings."

In other words, this is accessed from booting into the settings screen (accessed by a specific keypress during the bootup process), not within Windows. Again, Fast Boot is different from the Fast Startup feature in Windows, and what j2mcgreg is talking about is the latter.

This confusion also leads me to say, explicitly:

j2mcgreg wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2024 11:40 amFast Start Up is a hidden bios switch whose control has been ceded to Microsoft, but it remains a bios switch. As such it resides in the bios, a location separate from the HDD or SSD. It will remain in play even in situations where an SSD or HDD has been replaced.

Please link to Microsoft documentation or some other such source that verifies this being the case and preventing installing from scratch in the way I described.

Nokkaelaein wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2024 1:00 pm Again, Fast Boot is different from the Fast Startup feature in Windows, and what j2mcgreg is talking about is the latter.

I tend to agree with you.

Sorry post #17 disagrees - at least what I read he IS talking about the BIOS level Fast Boot.

MS has worked with many companies (Lenovo especially) to make sure that Windows can turn this Biso Feature on and off from windows settings.

That bios level feature can help things boot faster.. but the cost of that is the non initialization of some hardware on the mobo.. and this can leave you in a bad state if something took place before.

On both my latest HP's, as well as a brand new Lenovo ThinkStation , turning on or off Fast Startup in Windows changed the FastBoot Bios setting.

HP Envy Laptop 17-cw0xxx
HP ENVY x360 2-in-1 Laptop 15-ew0xxx
(Sorry I dont have a QSI for the Thinkstation)

CharlesV wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2024 1:10 pm Sorry post #17 disagrees - at least what I read he IS talking about the BIOS level Fast Boot.

This was about a Fast Startup feature in Windows, in j2mcgreg's words the Fast Startup setting only settable from within Windows, somehow affecting a BIOS level setting (a hidden one, again according to j2mcgreg) in such a way that it interferes with installing Linux from scratch in the manner I described, i.e. creating a new filesystem, and formatting ext4 partition(s) from scratch. According to him, you need to reinstall Windows to change this setting to a good state. To all of this I say: this needs official info and documentation, to back up these specific claims.

Fast Boot is a different thing.

@Nokkaelaein wrote:

In other words, this is accessed from booting into the settings screen (accessed by a specific keypress during the bootup process), not within Windows. Again, Fast Boot is different from the Fast Startup feature in Windows, and what j2mcgreg is talking about is the latter.

It's the same thing. On machines with Win 8.1 and earlier it was a user accessible bios control called Quick Start. With Microsoft gaining the ability in Win 10 to write changes to the bios, it became a Windows switch called Fast Start Up but it still remains a bios component.

j2mcgreg wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2024 1:22 pm It's the same thing. On machines with Win 8.1 and earlier it was a user accessible bios control called Quick Start. With Microsoft gaining the ability in Win 10 to write changes to the bios, it became a Windows switch called Fast Start Up but it still remains a bios component.

The Fast Startup feature in Windows is patently not the same thing as the Fast Boot (or Quick Start) in the BIOS. Please back up all of this from some official MS documentation or similar, please. If you can show me an MS document saying what you just said, these things being one and the same, I will instantly concede and state I'm in the wrong here. After all, this is about providing factual information on how these things are. But please, without such documents, at least do not continue just in order to "appear being right" about this.

Here's a nice explanation from Zorin forums:


Shortly:

https://forum.zorin.com/t/secure-boot-fast-boot-fast-startup-explained/25765 wrote:

• BIOS/UEFI Fast boot: Bypasses certain hardware initialization processes during startup.

• Windows Fast Startup: Stores "Last State" instance's, On Startup, Booting back to Last State (like hibernation)

Consequently: It shouldn't require Windows to just enable/disable it.

(P.S. When Fast Boot is enabled you may not be able to enter Bios settings. In that case select reboot then retry).

So now @Nokkaelaein, if you're correct, what exactly are the steps?
Do I start the compter and immediately go into bios/uefi to disable secure boot, and then install MX on the entire drive?

Resume wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2024 2:49 pm So now @Nokkaelaein, if you're correct, what exactly are the steps?
Do I start the compter and immediately go into bios/uefi to disable secure boot, and then install MX on the entire drive?

If you install on the entire drive, creating a new filesystem and formatting, just follow the installation section in the official MX Linux user manual; it goes into detail on the installation procedure. You haven't told the exact Thinkpad model you are installing onto, but in any case, it's a good idea to try googling that exact model and seeing if something of note comes up in its configuration / hardware makeup, also. On every Thinkpad I've used for MX Linux, it has gone smoothly like this, yes, with no need to alter anything whatsoever inside Windows, specifically, pre-installation. When installing from scratch, and not considering dual booting or leaving a Windows partition behind, etc. etc, I am very sceptical of any such setting that you'd first need to set within Windows. Wait a while if someone comes up with actual official documents on the contrary but I have never encountered any (setting or document, that is).

Ok, thanks. I have no problem using live usb, turning off secure boot, installing to whole drive, etc. I've been doing it for many years.
It's just that I don't want to have to deal with Windows and its problems in any way (it's not just for ideological reasons btw).
I'll follow your advice and wait a bit.
I really appreciate everyone's input!

... Then just see if you're able to enter Bios settings. If yes: Disable secure boot and fast boot and while you're at it also change sata mode to Ahci (if there's such an option or if it's set to Raid by default). Save and Exit, that's it.

Nokkaelaein wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2024 3:12 pm Wait a while if someone comes up with actual official documents on the contrary but I have never encountered any (setting or document, that is).

A quick search of 'Windows Fast Startup' with site:microsoft.com sprinkled in gave the 2 below. I'm sure anyone can find more in that search if they are so inclined.

Distinguishing Fast Startup from Wake-from-Hibernation

Delivering a great startup and shutdown experience - Fast startup

I'm retired from Microsoft server support - I only have time for Linux nowadays :-)

Since I didn't really know which Thinkpad to get, and I just don't want to jump through Windows' hoops, I decided to order a System76 mini desktop, and just install MX over it (don't want PopOS). It costs a little less than a Thinkpad, anyway.
Thanks again, everybody!

FullScale4Me wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2024 2:09 am

Nokkaelaein wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2024 3:12 pm Wait a while if someone comes up with actual official documents on the contrary but I have never encountered any (setting or document, that is).

A quick search of 'Windows Fast Startup' with site:microsoft.com sprinkled in gave the 2 below. I'm sure anyone can find more in that search if they are so inclined.

Distinguishing Fast Startup from Wake-from-Hibernation

Delivering a great startup and shutdown experience - Fast startup

I'm retired from Microsoft server support - I only have time for Linux nowadays :-)

Yeah , thanks for linking MS material about Fast Startup. (What I meant above specifically was, I haven't seen such official documents that would point to anything contrary to what I have described here, and which would confirm the claims made by j2mcgreg :)).

Summing up, food for thought: if the following was true...

j2mcgreg wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 7:56 am Realize that on any laptop made within the last twelve years you will have to boot into Windows at least once to disable Fast Start Up.

...shouldn't it be mentioned in the installation section of the MX Linux user manual? Twelve years, that's a long time. And a mandatory procedure, for any laptop with Windows - quite a vital bit of information, having to do this even when installing completely fresh, not preserving any Windows partition. Why not put it in the manual?

Nokkaelaein wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2024 4:33 am
...shouldn't it be mentioned in the installation section of the MX Linux user manual? Twelve years, that's a long time. And a mandatory procedure, for any laptop with Windows - quite a vital bit of information, having to do this even when installing completely fresh, not preserving any Windows partition. Why not put it in the manual?

Agreed. Without that info the installation guide doesn't help.

Resume wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2024 7:29 am Agreed. Without that info the installation guide doesn't help.

The implication was, it isn't true, and it isn't mentioned in the manual because saying so would be misleading. If it was such a vital bit of information ("on any laptop made within the last twelve years you will have to boot into Windows at least once to disable Fast Start Up"), and it was needed on laptops during the last twelve years (it isn't), it would have been added to the installation section in the manual many times already :P. If you see my very first reply in this thread, responding to that claim, that's basically still what I'm saying, all of it.

Alongside this debate, I just purchased a reconditioned Thinkpad X280 with Win10 Pro freshly installed. I have installed MX-23 over the Windows installation but I can't conclusively say whether I needed to use Win10 to disable Fast Startup. What I found was that hitting Enter on boot (Lenovo default) wasn't recognised and the machine continued to Win10. My son disabled Fast Start & Secure Boot, Enter gave BIOS & Boot menus and I booted the live MX-23 without problem. I hadn't checked whether just hitting F12 for the Boot menu would work. I didn't think of trying a restart from Win10 either.

No great hassle with a Win user in the room and I now have a very nice small laptop for £150. The last one lasted me over 7 years for about the same price.

Phil