Page 4 of 5
Re: "I don't know anything about computers"
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:58 pm
by Mauser
seaken64 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:28 pm
JayM wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:57 am
They can no longer even read and follow instructions.
If any of you have ever done computer support, have you ever noticed this?
In my experience if someone does in fact read and follow instructions they will be fine. Most people prefer not to read instructions. They believe they "should be able to use the damn thing without having to read nuthin!"
The people who want to know how it works will be fine. If a person wants to know how to change their own oil in the car, or replace the battery, they will read up on it (a book about cars in our day, or, these days, at least watch a YouTube video or two). But most users do not want to know how or why. All they know is "it's broken" and call you to fix it.
Seaken64
It doesn't always work like that. Depending on how well the instructions are written and if they are written in laymen terms or not determines if they can follow those instructions. If they can't understand understand the instructions they won't be fine. As for changing oil you are wrong. I am a retired automotive technician and I have seen my share of those following instructions that have two left hands. Two gaskets on an oil filter, stripped oil pan threads and drain plug threads, loose drain plugs, leaking oil drain plug seal because they didn't change it when it needed to be changed, not loosing an oil filter first that faces down so the dirty oil can drain into the oil pan, extended oil change intervals, and wrong oil used, and using those cheap Group 7 oil filters that the filter media usually breaks apart clogging the oil pickup. I look at it as job security.
Re: "I don't know anything about computers"
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:13 pm
by seaken64
Mauser wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:58 pm
seaken64 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:28 pm
JayM wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:57 am
They can no longer even read and follow instructions.
If any of you have ever done computer support, have you ever noticed this?
In my experience if someone does in fact read and follow instructions they will be fine. Most people prefer not to read instructions. They believe they "should be able to use the damn thing without having to read nuthin!"
The people who want to know how it works will be fine. If a person wants to know how to change their own oil in the car, or replace the battery, they will read up on it (a book about cars in our day, or, these days, at least watch a YouTube video or two). But most users do not want to know how or why. All they know is "it's broken" and call you to fix it.
Seaken64
It doesn't always work like that. Depending on how well the instructions are written and if they are written in laymen terms or not determines if they can follow those instructions. If they can't understand understand the instructions they won't be fine. As for changing oil you are wrong. I am a retired automotive technician and I have seen my share of those following instructions that have two left hands. Two gaskets on an oil filter, stripped oil pan threads and drain plug threads, loose drain plugs, leaking oil drain plug seal because they didn't change it when it needed to be changed, not loosing an oil filter first that faces down so the dirty oil can drain into the oil pan, extended oil change intervals, and wrong oil used, and using those cheap Group 7 oil filters that the filter media usually breaks apart clogging the oil pickup. I look at it as job security.
Yes, point taken. But if someone really wants to learn they will do it. It might take them some time and they may make some mistakes and need someone to show them where they went wrong. Most people just don't want to learn stuff. If they can afford it they call the tech. But if they can't afford to pay the tech then they will have to learn, or not drive, or go without the computer.
And people always complain that the manual sucks!
Seaken64
Re: "I don't know anything about computers"
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:21 pm
by Mauser
seaken64 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:13 pm
Mauser wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:58 pm
seaken64 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:28 pm
Yes, point taken. But if someone really wants to learn they will do it. It might take them some time and they may make some mistakes and need someone to show them where they went wrong. Most people just don't want to learn stuff. If they can afford it they call the tech. But if they can't afford to pay the tech then they will have to learn, or not drive, or go without the computer.
And people always complain that the manual sucks!
Seaken64
You still don't get it. There are some that no matter how hard they try to learn about computers they can't. The same goes for working on Automobiles. You are born with certain talents and born without other talents. No teaching in the world can change that. Here is a good example of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHGTs1NSB1s So you are saying Linus Torvalds doesn't want to learn? Quote didn't work correctly.
Re: "I don't know anything about computers"
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:46 pm
by seaken64
Mauser wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:21 pm
You still don't get it. There are some that no matter how hard they try to learn about computers they can't. The same goes for working on Automobiles. You are born with certain talents and born without other talents. No teaching in the world can change that. Here is a good example of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHGTs1NSB1s So you are saying Linus Torvalds doesn't want to learn? Quote didn't work correctly.
I suppose. I can't argue against your statement. There are learning disabilities. But something tells me that people like Linus would learn what they need to learn. Learning disabilities aside, I think anyone can learn regardless of talent. I think it has more to do with fear and desire than it does the inability to learn. But your idea on this is just as valid.
Seaken64
Re: "I don't know anything about computers"
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:15 pm
by freemedia2018
seaken64 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:46 pmI think anyone can learn regardless of talent. I think it has more to do with fear and desire than it does the inability to learn.
that is certainly the direction things are going in. they are finding that the better the education gets, the better the odds of learning. this does not mean that good education is common. just as incompetent and unskilled users can still end up using a cd tray as a cup holder (ok, im sure thats 98% urban legend. but im just sure that someones really done it) there are teachers who get hired without an ability to teach. and most of them going to take out their lack of skills on their students. dunning kruger applies here.
however, one thing that supports what mouser is saying is that manuals often assume more knowledge than the user needs. that-- and lack of taking instructions seriously, means there are always people who screw things up. some could rehabilitate themselves. many never will. but i think its important to maintain the real difference between cant and wont. and also lazy, narcissistic teachers vs. allegedly hopeless students.
not that a lazy student is likely to do well. they arent. not everything can be blamed on the teacher. but a lazy student doesnt mean theyre born unteachable. it lowers the odds that they will learn-- more than their innate ability.
people are born with certain aptitudes, yes-- and being good at something does encourage people to learn more about it. we arent all going be mozart, but everybody can play a piano chord or mary had a little lamb-- theres a lot of range between those-- even i can play mary had a little lamb. sometimes people have unreasonably high expectations too-- asian parents for example (its NOT just a stereotype, people actually die over it.) but that doesnt mean we need to dumb down everything. it means there are unreasonably low expectations-- then reasonable expectations-- then unreasonably high expectations. which expectations are which comes down to real life data and statistics, as well as improvements in teaching (which hardly ever make it into mainstream education, of course!)
Re: "I don't know anything about computers"
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:24 pm
by jeffreyC
No, the cup holder story is not an urban myth, I knew the guy that got that tech support call back in the mid 1990s.
Ignorance about computers was normal then.
Re: "I don't know anything about computers"
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:48 am
by freemedia2018
jeffreyC wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:24 pmIgnorance about computers was normal then.
its more normal now, there is simply less excuse.
i dont blame anybody entirely. the reasons are interesting. im very interested in fixing them, or at least creating a viable plan for fixing them. as far as passion about it goes, im a bit like the greta thunberg of computer literacy-- with fewer backers, alas. i dont care about the money. i dont care about the fame (happy to hand that off to someone else.) i want the results.
Re: "I don't know anything about computers"
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:03 am
by Artim
I used to have a screensaver that read,
Code: Select all
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
Re: "I don't know anything about computers"
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:24 pm
by seaken64
Artim wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:03 am
I used to have a screensaver that read,
Code: Select all
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
And you were looking for the keys marked "Any" and "Any Other"?
Re: "I don't know anything about computers"
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:37 pm
by jeffreyC
Years ago when I saw 'Press Any Key' I did just that, and after pressing every key one after another I found that the only key that worked is the space bar. The definition of any which I was taught in school is clearly different from that of the instruction writers.
This is more confusing than the UNIX tradition of calling the Enter key the Return key, or calling the Windows key either Super or Meta.
Makes me more sympathetic to those resisting learning about computers when I think about how obtuse some of the directions are.