MX Linux Forum

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2024 2:18 am**

Good morning guys.
XFCE 4.20 was released.
https://www-new.xfce.org/about/news/?post=1734220800

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2024 3:27 am**

Moving to requests area, where it should be.

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2024 3:54 am**

predatorbassg wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2024 2:18 am XFCE 4.20 was released.

Here's the quiet part said loud:

The major focus during this development cycle was the preparation of the codebase to be ready for Wayland. So that we meanwhile have experimental Wayland support for most components.

Slowly but surely, progress continues.

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2024 8:15 am**

There are also tons of improvements on Thunar, multi display profiles and the config utilities.

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2024 11:43 am**

+1 The improvements appear to be pretty nice.

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2024 12:48 pm**

We tend to let Debian get it into Sid first, since we've been burned before when Debian decided to change library versions on us when we ported it ASAP from a PPA.

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2024 1:24 pm**

this one looks like it may need a little more testing time than previous releases. there are changes to how appearance sets dark themes, saved session support, xfconf output, and possibly dropping light-locker support in favor of pushing all screen locking settings into xfce4-screensaver. we will have to dig in a little to see how much dropping light-locker really drops light-locker. by default mx23 doesn't use light-locker, but I don't want to break user's systems either.

one thing for certain, Xfce will be on X for quite a while yet.

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2024 1:35 pm**

Makes perfect sense, and LOVE that everyone takes the time and energy to do the testing and is careful and watching out. Thank you!

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2024 3:02 pm**

I tried to install either downloading and from source but both were unsuccessful, some packages needed to be higher versions, glib and xfce4-dev-tools and some others ...

@dolphin_oracle will that affect other screen-lockers, too? Say, removing the xfce4-screensaver and installing i3lock or xtrlock (etc.) would be possible ?

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2024 3:20 pm**

Kermit the Frog wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2024 3:02 pm will that affect other screen-lockers, too? Say, removing the xfce4-screensaver and installing i3lock or xtrlock (etc.) would be possible ?

If you try that on a scratch install, you will find out soon enough, right?

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2024 3:26 pm**

Eadwine Rose wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2024 3:20 pm
Kermit the Frog wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2024 3:02 pm will that affect other screen-lockers, too? Say, removing the xfce4-screensaver and installing i3lock or xtrlock (etc.) would be possible ?
If you try that on a scratch install, you will find out soon enough, right?

Of course "if I once be able to install Xfce 4.20, too" .

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2024 3:40 pm**

Kermit the Frog wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2024 3:02 pm I tried to install either downloading and from source but both were unsuccessful, some packages needed to be higher versions, glib and xfce4-dev-tools and some others ...

@dolphin_oracle will that affect other screen-lockers, too? Say, removing the xfce4-screensaver and installing i3lock or xtrlock (etc.) would be possible ?

Well, yes, first the tools must be packaged before they can then be used to build the library packages that are then used to build the other packages,
The newer glib problem sounds like those are Ubuntu packages, though.

Posted: **Thu Dec 19, 2024 2:18 am**

https://packages.debian.org/sid/xfce4
XFCE 4.20 is landed in sid (unstable).

Posted: **Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:42 pm**

In my XFCE Siduction virtual machine, it has finished updating to version 4.20, here inxi -F of the machine:

System:
Host: gm-virtualbox Kernel: 6.12.5-1-siduction-amd64 arch: x86_64 bits: 64
Desktop: Xfce v: 4.20.0 Distro: siduction 2023.1.1 giants - xfce -
(202309091902)
Machine:
Type: Virtualbox System: innotek GmbH product: VirtualBox v: 1.2
serial: <superuser required>
Mobo: Oracle model: VirtualBox v: 1.2 serial: <superuser required>
BIOS: innotek GmbH v: VirtualBox date: 01/12/2006
CPU:
Info: single core model: AMD Athlon II X2 250 bits: 64 type: UP cache:
L2: 1024 KiB
Speed (MHz): 3014 min/max: N/A core: 1: 3014
Graphics:
Device-1: VMware SVGA II Adapter driver: vmwgfx v: 2.20.0.0
Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 21.1.14 driver: X: loaded: modesetting
unloaded: fbdev,vesa dri: swrast gpu: vmwgfx resolution: 1329x685~60Hz
API: EGL v: 1.5 drivers: kms_swrast,swrast
platforms: gbm,x11,surfaceless,device
API: OpenGL v: 4.5 vendor: mesa v: 24.2.8-1 renderer: llvmpipe (LLVM
19.1.4 128 bits)
Audio:
Device-1: Intel 82801AA AC97 Audio driver: snd_intel8x0
API: ALSA v: k6.12.5-1-siduction-amd64 status: kernel-api
Server-1: PipeWire v: 1.2.7 status: active
Network:
Device-1: Intel 82540EM Gigabit Ethernet driver: e1000
IF: enp0s3 state: up speed: 1000 Mbps duplex: full mac: 08:00:27:d6:38:f1
Device-2: Intel 82371AB/EB/MB PIIX4 ACPI type: network bridge
driver: piix4_smbus
Drives:
Local Storage: total: 80 GiB used: 10.2 GiB (12.7%)
ID-1: /dev/sda vendor: VirtualBox model: VBOX HARDDISK size: 80 GiB
Partition:
ID-1: /size: 68.58 GiB used: 10.2 GiB (14.9%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda1
Swaps:
ID-1: swap-1 type: partition size: 9.77 GiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%)
dev: /dev/sda2
Sensors:
Src: lm-sensors+/sys Message: No sensor data found using /sys/class/hwmon
or lm-sensors.
Info:
Memory: total: 1.88 GiB available: 1.81 GiB used: 663.2 MiB (35.7%)
Processes: 164 Uptime: 1m Shell: Bash inxi: 3.3.36

Posted: **Thu Dec 19, 2024 1:14 pm**

Please do not use quotes for code. You should use the copy button when posting QSI.

Posted: **Fri Dec 20, 2024 11:40 pm**

Am starting work on porting over the Sid packages for MX 23 test, hopefully will be a nice holiday present!

Posted: **Sat Dec 21, 2024 11:49 am**

Stevo wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 11:40 pm Am starting work on porting over the Sid packages for MX 23 test, hopefully will be a nice holiday present!

Awesome! Thank you Stevo!!

Posted: **Sat Dec 21, 2024 11:52 am**

Does anyone know if they fixed their display resolution scaling, or perhaps the limitations of GTK for fractional scaling are at issue..? All I know is if you enter a number higher than 1 everything gets much smaller, not larger and numbers below 1 make things larger but blurry.. Neither option is great

Posted: **Sat Dec 21, 2024 12:03 pm**

AVLinux wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 11:52 am Does anyone know if they fixed their display resolution scaling, or perhaps the limitations of GTK for fractional scaling are at issue..? All I know is if you enter a number higher than 1 everything gets much smaller, not larger and numbers below 1 make things larger but blurry.. Neither option is great

Possibly? ... There are three notes about scaling in the release notes: ( https://www.xfce.org/download/changelogs/4.20 )

Extension Library and then Panel they have this one:
- Load icons using icon theme scaling functions correctly

And under Settings Manager:
- display-settings: Switch to one-dimensional scaling

Posted: **Sat Dec 21, 2024 12:04 pm**

Here's the detailed changelog: https://www.xfce.org/download/changelogs/4.20

Posted: **Sat Dec 21, 2024 1:04 pm**

Since Wayland handling has experimental status in XFCE 4.20, will it be in MX Linux:

A) Disabled by default?
B) Enabled by default?
C) Partly enabled, and partly disabled?
D) Totally removed from stable?

Posted: **Sat Dec 21, 2024 1:30 pm**

We've got to get testing first...

Posted: **Sat Dec 21, 2024 1:41 pm**

Thank you!

Posted: **Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:52 am**

AVLinux wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 11:52 am Does anyone know if they fixed their display resolution scaling, or perhaps the limitations of GTK for fractional scaling are at issue..? All I know is if you enter a number higher than 1 everything gets much smaller, not larger and numbers below 1 make things larger but blurry.. Neither option is great

GTK3 and gtk4 can only do integer scaling. This is the short answer. If you want something else you have to use xrandr (=blurriness). This is implemented in a confusing way in Xfce display settings. However, since you are using MX Linux it is implemented in a much cleaner way in MX Tweak (Display tab) in Xfce. In MX Tweak you will understand what you are doing since labels are clear. So this is a nice gift from MX devs to Xfce users.

From a wider perspective this is only relevant to Xfce users. But how to deal with gtk applications on a non-gtk desktop? The GDK_SCALE value can only work with integer values. I believe the GDK_DPI_SCALE value is what is used by Qt desktops to scale gtk applications. This is font scaling, but works to some extent since bigger font also expands gtk buttons and toolbars. The problem is widgets such as radio buttons and checkboxes that don’t generally respond to font scaling.

However there seems to be a new trend. Firefox and Chrome seem to scale everything (including gtk widgets) when set to a higher font dpi. It seems font dpi scaling (as originally intended) is slowly being phased out and might not work as originally intended on Wayland. I remember reading that Plasma 6 desktop has removed font dpi scaling from Wayland sessions.

Windows 11 also supports font dpi scaling but some applications like Chrome treats it like a global scale value and scales everything.

Since you use Enlightenment the only gtk value you need to worry about is GDK_DPI_SCALE (unless you have 4K or higher resolution). If you want to try Xfce use scale settings in MX Tweak and ignore Xfce display settings for that purpose. In fact (as others have stated on this forum), if you want to avoid blurriness, font dpi scaling will get you a long way on a gtk based desktop.

Regarding Xfce 4.20 I don’t think anything has changed for practical purposes. They have refined some things, but the basics above still hold true.

Posted: **Sun Dec 22, 2024 8:47 am**

Xfce is known to change up not too much from version to version. That's one of the big reasons it's my go-to choice for any Linux system. Main focus in development surely is Wayland and it's good to see Xfce picking up the pace and getting ready for the transition which will come sooner or later.

Regarding implementation into MX we shouldn't rush things. MAYBE we can think about putting it into MX 25 in ~1 year depending on when exactly Debian 13 will be released and what package version Debian will choose as their default.

Posted: **Sun Dec 22, 2024 9:01 am**

MadMax wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 8:47 am ...
Regarding implementation into MX we shouldn't rush things. MAYBE we can think about putting it into MX 25 in ~1 year depending on when exactly Debian 13 will be released and what package version Debian will choose as their default.

Don't think you need to worry about it, based on how 4.18 XFCE was introduced into MX21.

https://mxlinux.org/blog/xfce-4-18-comi ... -to-mx-21/

After the devs' own testing, the devs invited adventurous/experienced users to test the new version from a separate experimental repo.

Posted: **Sun Dec 22, 2024 10:23 am**

To forestall any questions, 4.20 doesn't seem possible to package for MX 21 because it would need at least a newer glib-2.0 (GTK base libraries), and probably many more. I am able to build 4.20 on vanilla Bookworm. I've finished the major packages for 4.20, but now there's quite a few panel widgets to build on top of those...I don't think the docklike plugin is in Debian, I need to research that.

Posted: **Sun Dec 22, 2024 3:32 pm**

dreamer wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:52 am
AVLinux wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 11:52 am Does anyone know if they fixed their display resolution scaling, or perhaps the limitations of GTK for fractional scaling are at issue..? All I know is if you enter a number higher than 1 everything gets much smaller, not larger and numbers below 1 make things larger but blurry.. Neither option is great
GTK3 and gtk4 can only do integer scaling. This is the short answer. If you want something else you have to use xrandr (=blurriness). This is implemented in a confusing way in Xfce display settings. However, since you are using MX Linux it is implemented in a much cleaner way in MX Tweak (Display tab) in Xfce. In MX Tweak you will understand what you are doing since labels are clear. So this is a nice gift from MX devs to Xfce users.

From a wider perspective this is only relevant to Xfce users. But how to deal with gtk applications on a non-gtk desktop? The GDK_SCALE value can only work with integer values. I believe the GDK_DPI_SCALE value is what is used by Qt desktops to scale gtk applications. This is font scaling, but works to some extent since bigger font also expands gtk buttons and toolbars. The problem is widgets such as radio buttons and checkboxes that don’t generally respond to font scaling.

However there seems to be a new trend. Firefox and Chrome seem to scale everything (including gtk widgets) when set to a higher font dpi. It seems font dpi scaling (as originally intended) is slowly being phased out and might not work as originally intended on Wayland. I remember reading that Plasma 6 desktop has removed font dpi scaling from Wayland sessions.

Windows 11 also supports font dpi scaling but some applications like Chrome treats it like a global scale value and scales everything.

Since you use Enlightenment the only gtk value you need to worry about is GDK_DPI_SCALE (unless you have 4K or higher resolution). If you want to try Xfce use scale settings in MX Tweak and ignore Xfce display settings for that purpose. In fact (as others have stated on this forum), if you want to avoid blurriness, font dpi scaling will get you a long way on a gtk based desktop.

Regarding Xfce 4.20 I don’t think anything has changed for practical purposes. They have refined some things, but the basics above still hold true.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, that actually clarifies some fundamental things I didn't fully understand. I did actually try MX Tweak for XFCE4 scaling but on my 4K monitor it also made things blurry. I don't know what Voodoo Enlightenment is using and despite its many quirks and critics I find it scales E, QT and GTK beautifully and seamlessly and the font, icon and widget resolution is very crisp. My brief KDE visit also had good scaling but some png Icons and Widgets were appearing with pixel artifacts. Anyway, at least I now have some more realistic expectations for what XFCE4 is capable of under the hood.

Posted: **Sun Dec 22, 2024 10:39 pm**

It's now in our "temp" experimental repository, and the upgrades have gone smoothly, but I get a black screen of death with the experimental Wayland session. Other than that, it looks nice. I'll wait for an official announcement for testers. Maybe we can disable that wayland session in lightdm.

Posted: **Mon Dec 23, 2024 12:14 am**

Stevo wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 10:39 pm It's now in our "temp" experimental repository, and the upgrades have gone smoothly, but I get a black screen of death with the experimental Wayland session. Other than that, it looks nice. I'll wait for an official announcement for testers. Maybe we can disable that wayland session in lightdm.

What Wayland compositor are you trying to use? The release notes say that Xfwm isn't ready for Wayland yet. I think they recommend Labwc or Wayfire as Wayland compositors. Also, the wayland-utils package needs to be installed I believe.

Posted: **Mon Dec 23, 2024 10:44 am**

Stevo wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 10:39 pm... I get a black screen of death with the experimental Wayland session...

Here it just blinks once and and turns back to login screen.

Code: Select all

System:
  Kernel: 6.11.2-1-liquorix-amd64 arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc
    v: 12.2.0 parameters: audit=0 intel_pstate=disable
    BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-6.11.2-1-liquorix-amd64
    root=UUID=3b501b97-def8-4a35-ab87-139f05d4d960 ro quiet nosplash
    
  Desktop: Xfce v: 4.20.0 tk: Gtk v: 3.24.38 info: xfce4-panel wm: xfwm
    v: 4.20.0 vt: 7 dm: LightDM v: 1.26.0 Distro: MX-23.4_x64 Libretto July 31
    2023 base: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)

Code: Select all

Graphics:
  Device-1: NVIDIA GT216M [GeForce GT 230M] vendor: Hewlett-Packard
    driver: nouveau v: kernel non-free: series: 340.xx status: legacy (EOL)
    last: release: 340.108 kernel: 5.4 xorg: 1.20 arch: Tesla process: 40-80nm
    built: 2006-13 pcie: gen: 2 speed: 5 GT/s lanes: 16 ports: active: LVDS-1
    empty: HDMI-A-1,VGA-1 bus-ID: 01:00.0 chip-ID: 10de:0a28 class-ID: 0300
    temp: 64.0 C
    
  Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 1.21.1.7 compositor: xfwm v: 4.20.0 driver:
    X: loaded: modesetting unloaded: fbdev,vesa dri: nouveau gpu: nouveau
    display-ID: :0.0 screens: 1
    
  Screen-1: 0 s-res: 1366x768 s-dpi: 96 s-size: 362x204mm (14.25x8.03")
    s-diag: 416mm (16.36")
    
  Monitor-1: LVDS-1 model: Seiko Epson 0x3651 built: 2008 res: 1366x768
    hz: 60 dpi: 101 gamma: 1.2 size: 344x194mm (13.54x7.64") diag: 395mm (15.5")
    ratio: 16:9 modes: max: 1366x768 min: 640x350
    
  API: OpenGL v: 3.3 Mesa 24.2.2-1~mx23ahs renderer: NVA5 direct-render: Yes

Posted: **Tue Dec 24, 2024 3:47 pm**

I tried XFCE 4.20 with labwc, and did get something to work, but not well.

Note that without a separate working configuration for labwc, you will get a blank screen - as you would in openbox without a configuration. I happen to have a working labwc configuration that already works (menus, key bindings, sfwbar panel) that I used. I have been using labwc for a few years now, and it is pretty solid, although very basic.

For the XFCE panel, it is best to start with a configuration (brought over from X11) that does not include the workspace switcher, else the panel will refuse to work. I noticed major bugs with XFCE panel in wayland with fractional scaling. I am using a scale factor of 1.667 (Wayland scale factors are reciprocals of Xrandr scale factors, so this is 0.6 in Xrandr) on my primary monitor, and the XFCE panel fluctuates wildly. If I set the scale to an integer (1 or 2), it works. Also, the panel doesn't repaint itself well across scale changes, so you have to do something like change which display it is assigned to and then change it back before it redisplays properly. I don't like that the panel configuration is shared between X11 and Wayland - this will cause anyone who uses the workspace switcher (not yet supported at all in Wayland) to think the panel doesn't work at all. However, with this sharing, you can at least set up a panel in X11 that does not use the workspace switcher, then start xfce4-panel in Wayland and have it work. You will have to start xfce4-panel some way (labwc autostart file, for instance) because xfce4-session won't start it by default in Wayland (as far as I can tell).

There is no integration of XFCE settings with the compositor. Even parts of the theme that are not governed by the compositor (like the background/foreground colors in xfce4-terminal and thunar) are not operating as well. For instance, I have a script that flips between light and dark themes that works very well with X11/XFCE4, but not at all with Wayland/XFCE4. It uses xfconf-query to switch themes - and that doesn't take hold in the labwc setup until a restart of the desktop (logout/login).

BTW: I'm testing this in Debian testing, not in MX.

Posted: **Wed Dec 25, 2024 4:18 pm**

Back to X11.

Another minor bug: the XFCE 4.20 panel's window buttons and window menu do not pick up icons if they reside in non-system paths, such as ~/.icons. You can test this by copying any icon to ~/.icons/testicon.svg (or whatever extension is appropriate for that icon), then run

Code: Select all

xfce4-terminal -I ~/.icons/testicon.svg

The test icon will appear in its normal place at the top-left of the title bar (if you use server-side decorations as usual), and will also show up in the panel workspace switcher if you use preview mode there (and the terminal is big enough to show the icon in the preview). But you will see the standard xfce4-terminal icon in the panel window buttons and window menu. This is annoying if you have a few terminal-based apps and were using local icons to differentiate them (as I am) on the panel.

The workaround is to move whatever icons you keep in local user folders to some system folder instead, and refer to them there.

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