MX Linux Forum

What would you do if FireFox went away?
Interesting article.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/an-endang ... s-firefox/

Continue to use Opera...

Keep using Google Chrome.

That article reads like pure FUD to me.

JayM wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:51 am That article reads like pure FUD to me.

Not quite, I mean you can see the writing on the wall, I foresee that our next release might come with something like Chromium or maybe even Brave.

... staying with Vivaldi!

2xRacer wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:45 am ... staying with Vivaldi!

Vivaldi is owned by its employees. And we plan to keep it that way.

Having no external investors gives us the freedom to listen to our users and, together with them, build the browser they deserve. We don´t track you and we will never sell your data.

No offense to anyone, but in my opinion, Google is evil and Opera is now nothing more than a Google clone. If Firefox fails, or becomes much more of a pita to turn off all their spammy crap, then something with the philosophy of Vivaldi would be my replacement.

ymmv...

Edit:

Adrian wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:18 am ...or maybe even Brave.

Sorry Adrian, didn't see that at first. Never heard of Brave before, but it also seems to be [a clone of / based on] Chromium.

Chromium is a free and open-source software project from Google.

So, personally, I'll skip Brave as well...

Go back to my 286 with DR-DOS and lynx.

That was a joke!

On MX we'll have plenty of choices. No worries.

Seaken64

Continue with Chrome and wait for a new group to salvage the pieces, fork the project, and launch a new streamlined version.

Michael-IDA wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:20 am Google is evil and Opera is now nothing more than a Google clone.

I trust Vivaldi. I was using Opera for many years but since these chinese companies took over it I don't fully trust it anymore.

2xRacer wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:19 pm

Michael-IDA wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:20 am Google is evil and Opera is now nothing more than a Google clone.

I trust Vivaldi. I was using Opera for many years but since these chinese companies took over it I don't fully trust it anymore.

I wouldnt put blanket statement on all chinese companies, thats similar to writing off all american companies because of google or facebook. thats pretty ignorant atitude, or pehaps thats what you were aiming for. the world is divided enough as it is.

I Switched to Vavaldi and am happy with that , haven't used FF for awhile now But do keep it installed. Also use chrome once in a great while. I also used Opera for a long time, But got tired for fixing the video play back on it every time a new version comes out.

kksmith wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:34 pm I wouldnt put blanket statement on all chinese companies

no that's not ignorant attitude and you missunderstood what I wanted to say. Of course not all chinese companies are bad but China is supervising and more or less suppressing most of it's citizens. I guess that they control and analyze data where they can and because of that I have the suspicion that Quihoo360, who bought Opera, may give my browsing data for analysis to the chinese control institutions. And particularly I didn't want to say that chinese people are bad but their government is. Look what they did and do to the Tibetean, to the Uigur and to many of their own people.

kksmith wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:34 pm

2xRacer wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:19 pm

Michael-IDA wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:20 am Google is evil and Opera is now nothing more than a Google clone.

I trust Vivaldi. I was using Opera for many years but since these chinese companies took over it I don't fully trust it anymore.

I wouldnt put blanket statement on all chinese companies, thats similar to writing off all american companies because of google or facebook. thats pretty ignorant atitude, or pehaps thats what you were aiming for. the world is divided enough as it is.

The Chinese govt. controls what companies in China do.

American companies control the American govt. more than the govt. controls them.

The issue with Opera is not (or not only) that is controlled by a Chinese company, but because the company seems to be crappy (makes money out of short term loans and selling your data)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PedU3mNm-3Y

There's really no reason to use Opera at this time and age... only that you are used to it but that's not really a good reason.

Remember everyone let's stick to the topic, be civil, and not get all drown in political back and forth talk.

SwampRabbit wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:53 am Remember everyone let's stick to the topic, be civil, and not get all drown in political back and forth talk.

My first, (sarcastic), thought was I should post, "What was the topic again?"

And then after wandering off, I realized, that oddly almost all of this conversation does relate to the original topic, “What web browser(s) do I want to use.” And I’ve actually learned a good bit here in helping me determine that. I knew I’d mostly given up on Opera, but didn’t know they were bought out by a company selling out their users, which is exactly the reason I’ve put Opera on my ‘do not use’ list.

The only real thing, (while seemingly entirely obvious to me, but possibly totally unknown to others), I can see as completely off topic is:

jeffreyC wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:16 am The Chinese govt. controls what companies in China do.
American companies control the American govt. more than the govt. controls them.

But, oddly, for some people making a choose on which piece of software to use where/by who/how the software is made is an important decision point. So (very!) obliquely that is actually relevant.

I agree, let’s keep it civil! And I almost want the OP to change the topic title to:

“A Review of Web Browsers”

And then copy all the relevant bits up to the first post for a compact summary.

Best All,
Michael

Michael-IDA wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:45 am My first, (sarcastic), thought was I should post, "What was the topic again?"

And then after wandering off, I realized, that oddly almost all of this conversation does relate to the original topic, “What web browser(s) do I want to use.” And I’ve actually learned a good bit here in helping me determine that. I knew I’d mostly given up on Opera, but didn’t know they were bought out by a company selling out their users, which is exactly the reason I’ve put Opera on my ‘do not use’ list.

The only real thing, (while seemingly entirely obvious to me, but possibly totally unknown to others), I can see as completely off topic is:

jeffreyC wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:16 am The Chinese govt. controls what companies in China do.
American companies control the American govt. more than the govt. controls them.

All I'm saying is we have forum rules, even in this section of the forum, so lets keep things as clean under all aspects as much possible.
No matter if someone, something, or entity can be debated on.

We don't need folks getting annoyed, upset, or threads getting closed.

Adrian wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:49 am The issue with Opera is not (or not only) that is controlled by a Chinese company, but because the company seems to be crappy (makes money out of short term loans and selling your data)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PedU3mNm-3Y

There's really no reason to use Opera at this time and age... only that you are used to it but that's not really a good reason.

I agree. I used to use Opera back when it still had the Presto engine. You knew a website was standards-compliant when it rendered flawlessly on the Presto engine. It was a decent browser and also came with a nice mail client called M2. Even before the Chinese took over it, the browser's usability suffered and it seemed like the company was being restructured on a regular basis. They eventually let M2 rot and, IIRC, got rid of it from the last Presto-based releases.

I think one of the founders quit Opera and is now in charge development of Vivaldi. First impressions are that this is noticeably snappier than Firefox and Chrome.

Palemoon is impressive, especially for an apparently small and tight-knit developer community to be able to develop a browser that can handle the modern web. I've used it for months at a time and can do 99% of my web stuff with it, and can just use Brave or Vivaldi for the remaining 1%.

For us less informed (never heard of Palemoon), if you would be so kind please add link(s), a description, company background, how to install on MX, and/or anything else that you think someone who's never heard of it before could use...

Here's one, so I'm not being hypocritical

Vivaldi
https://vivaldi.com/

Repository Installations:
https://help.vivaldi.com/article/manual ... ositories/
Note: Do not use their download page, https://vivaldi.com/download/

About: https://vivaldi.com/company/
Vivaldi is owned by its employees. And we plan to keep it that way. Having no external investors gives us the freedom to listen to our users and, together with them, build the browser they deserve.

From Wikipedia:
Vivaldi is a freeware, cross-platform web browser developed by Vivaldi Technologies, a company founded by Opera Software co-founder and former CEO Jon Stephenson von Tetzchner and Tatsuki Tomita. It was officially launched on April 6, 2016.

Although intended for general users, it is first and foremost targeted towards technically-inclined users as well as former Opera users disgruntled by its transition from the Presto layout engine to a Chromium-based browser that resulted in the loss of many of its iconic features. Despite also being Chromium-based, Vivaldi aims to revive the features of the Presto-based Opera with its own proprietary modifications.

As of April 2020, Vivaldi has 1.5 million active monthly users.

Vivaldi released a mobile (Android) beta version on September 6, 2019 and a regular release on April 22, 2020.

Michael-IDA wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:13 pm For us less informed (never heard of Palemoon), if you would be so kind please add link(s), a description, company background, how to install on MX...

All of these - Vivaldi, Palemoon, Opera, Firefox, Brave, Chrome, etc - are installed by using the MX Package Installer, Popular Applications Tab, under the "Browsers" section.

Michael-IDA wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:13 pm For us less informed (never heard of Palemoon), if you would be so kind please add link(s), a description, company background, how to install on MX, and/or anything else that you think someone who's never heard of it before could use...

Our very own Stevo is like THE packager for Palemoon. Link to the palemoon site is right here, so is the status, and yep.. MXPI kinda makes installing it a no brainer. viewtopic.php?f=140&t=52722&hilit=palemoon Its an amazing browser, takes a bit to get used to imho, but solid piece of tech.

Cool, see that's why it's good to provide info for us newbs

Wrong place for this, but installing Palemoon though the MXPI threw some errors (warnings?). Runs okay though...

Michael-IDA wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:20 pm Cool, see that's why it's good to provide info for us newbs

Wrong place for this, but installing Palemoon though the MXPI threw some errors (warnings?). Runs okay though...

Code: Select all

The following NEW packages will be installed:
  palemoon
0 upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 41.0 MB of archives.
After this operation, 114 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Get:1 http://mirrors.rit.edu/mxlinux/mx-packages/mx/repo buster/main amd64 palemoon amd64 28.12.0-1mx19+1 [41.0 MB]
Can't exec "debconf-kde-helper": No such file or directory at /usr/share/perl5/Debconf/FrontEnd/Kde.pm line 43, <> line 1.
Unable to execute debconf-kde-helper - is debconf-kde-helper installed?debconf: unable to initialize frontend: Kde
debconf: (debconf-kde-helper did not respond to ping in 15 seconds)
debconf: falling back to frontend: Qt
debconf: unable to initialize frontend: Qt
debconf: (Can't locate Debconf/FrontEnd/Qt.pm in @INC (you may need to install the Debconf::FrontEnd::Qt module) (@INC contains: /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.28.1 /usr/local/share/perl/5.28.1 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl5/5.28 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.28 /usr/share/perl/5.28 /usr/local/lib/site_perl /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl-base) at (eval 22) line 2.)
debconf: falling back to frontend: Dialog
dpkg-preconfigure: unable to re-open stdin: No such file or directory

Stevo should look at this. I wonder if debconf-kde-helper needs to be a dependency of Palemoon? Anyway, as you say it should work fine.

I have used Pale Moon for a long time. It can be easily installed from MXPI. It's the most customisable and privacy respecting browser with Mozilla telemetry being inactive and the code being stripped out bit by bit. It's a hard fork from Firefox 52 and no more forks can be made because the XUL tech that makes up the Pale Moon UI has been deleted from newer Firefox versions.

I was a big Firefox fan during the Firefox 3 era (2008-2010), but since then basically everything went downhill for the Fox except Web compatibility. Web compatibility is the weakness of Pale Moon. It does cover 95 % of my needs or more, but I have used Chrome when I didn't feel like taking chances (banking, online payments etc.).

I didn't feel good about proprietary Chrome so I looked for something else. I needed something for Android as well. I had Firefox installed on MX and and on Android. Mozilla laying off 25 % of their work force in 2020 while still getting their $400 million per year from Google was the last straw for me.

Is there another open source browser with decent Web compatibility? There is, Brave. I was initially sceptical, because Brave was caught hijacking affiliate links not that long ago. I don't fully trust Brave, but I trust it more than Chrome and Firefox.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/8/21283 ... eo-apology

Brave also scored highest from a privacy perspective in a recent study (Pale Moon and other smaller browsers weren't part of the study):
https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs ... rivacy.pdf

Firefox on the desktop can still be tamed by user.js, but that possibility isn't available for the Android version. I feel Firefox is so close to a Chromium based browser that the only things separating it are the rendering engine and that it is possible to have a menu bar, which is still lacking from all Chromium based browsers.

So I will use Pale Moon 90 % and Brave 10 %. If Pale Moon fades away then I could use Brave more, but ultimately all Chromium based browsers lack a decent UI in my opinion. I don't think I will go back to Firefox unless there is a major reorganisation of Mozilla.

Opera 12 with the Presto engine and customisable Qt UI was cool. RIP. It's a weakness that "everything" is based on Chromium these days and Mozilla is getting all their money from the Chromium maker. Doesn't inspire confidence in the Web as a public resource.

There likely won't be any new Web browsers:
https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reck ... scope.html

It won't surprise me if web browsers eventually become giant virtual machines running distributed apps of sorts, a la Java VM. Even that would be more simpler than the current mess of "innovative technologies" that are wrecking the usability of the web.