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"I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:57 am
by JayM
This isn't reflecting on anyone in the forum at all, it's actually something I observed back in days of yore when I was doing on-site desktop computer support for a living. I just happened to think of it this morning.

I noticed that a few normal, reasonable, intelligent people seem to throw their common sense and their ability to think and reason right out the window as soon as a computer enters the equation. They can no longer even read and follow instructions. It's as though they've convinced themselves on a subconscious level that they can't do $TASK because they're "bad with computers", even when you give them a step-by-step cheat sheet to follow or when the on-screen prompts are so simple a child could understand them. Yet they're able to do other complex things that I would have no idea even where to start on.

I mean, things like when they get a login prompt asking for their password, they ask "What do I do now?" (Well, gee, I don't know, maybe you could try typing your password? ) Or a form with fields asking for their name and address: "What do I type?" It's like their brains completely freeze up or something just because they're sitting in front of a computer. They suddenly become as dumb as a sackful of hammers.

If any of you have ever done computer support, have you ever noticed this?

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:21 am
by oops
Yes, it is that why for these people, the best way is probably to start the computer from a CD/DVD or usb live iso, to have the minimum skilling before to start a PC from the hdd. They are afraid to do a mistake.
And start, for example, from easy software like Abiword, Gnumeric, boomaga instead Libreoffice. Confirmation before delete files into thunar especially with the "Suppr" key , etc.
viewtopic.php?p=556522#p556522
A good idea is also, like antiX has done, to put the Xkill icon into the menu and a desktop shortcut easy to access, in case of freeze of a software.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:00 am
by JayM
@oops, maybe that's it. Maybe they get intimidated by the computer and are afraid that they're going to break it or something.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:37 am
by oops
JayM wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:00 am @oops, maybe that's it. Maybe they get intimidated by the computer and are afraid that they're going to break it or something.
... It is my opinion.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:37 am
by chrispop99
I do support users, on a non-professional basis. It's quite frustrating that some people won't make the effort to find out a little about something they use a lot, but in my experience it's not just with computers. How many car owners even bother opening the handbook that comes with their car? I don't reckon it's many!

Chris

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:02 am
by freemedia2018
JayM wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:57 amI noticed that a few normal, reasonable, intelligent people seem to throw their common sense and their ability to think and reason right out the window as soon as a computer enters the equation. They can no longer even read and follow instructions. It's as though they've convinced themselves on a subconscious level
ive talked about this for years, im trying to write a (short, simple) book about it as we speak.

computers werent really hard to use in the 80s. when i was 5, it was NOT HARD to type:

pbrush and hit enter. that was all it took to run what is now called "mspaint." oh, its fair to say the disk had to be in the drive. the door on the drive had to be down. see? already two more things that could go wrong. the latter of which was solved by 3.5" floppy drives (they latched automatically-- no drive door.)

they werent hard to use, but they were very intimidating. funnily enough, no amount of user-friendly design has stopped this trepidation. and in the 1990s, schools stopped teaching computer literacy and moved to application training. this basically turned schools into microsoft salespeople-- any near-monopoly turned into a complete monopoly in schools.

and with that monopoly, users could be dragged from one design/ui fad to the next, meaning that the application training (learning on the most superficial level) was only good for a couple years, before microsoft changed things again. you see that happening now in free software as well, as influence from corporate monopolies increase. but its harder to pull off when things can be forked.

users are kept helpless, which means they need more and more help from the companies exploiting them. teachers are also kept helpless-- they didnt receive adequate computer training, and wont be able to provide it. but at least that will vindicate their own lack of understanding-- they will produce students who are as helpless as they are.

i dont blame the teachers as much as the industry. but we must have computer literate teachers or the public will continue to be yoked by these companies promising to "help".

one thing im not against is user-friendly design. im against monopoly; without it, you can have geek friendly designs-- those will actually come first, because thats what geeks will use to create friendlier designs (sometimes.) only when there is monopolistic influence do the superficial layers become all-important at the expense of the necessities.

the problem started with application training instead of computer education. reverting back to computer education means we need to undo the following:

1. the user cant be afraid of a computer without a working hard drive. they dont need to be able to install an os, but they should learn what a live distro is.

2. the user must know what a command line is, because a ridiculous industry is built on the fear of it. they dont need to be proficient, they just need to know enough to not panic or fear it, or think it means "the computer is broken."

3. the best way to increase computer literacy is to teach a small amount of simple coding. again, in the 80s it did not take much.

computers do not run software applications-- they run code. software applications are when code is put together to emulate a product. and thats fine, but teaching this twisting of basic facts benefits monopolistic companies more than it benefits people trying to help the user instead of yoking them.

as for how to make this happen, this is the plan ive spent years tweaking slightly: http://techrights.org/wp-content/upload ... freesw.png

i started out trying to promote free software. i looked for various ways to do it, i talked to people, i wrote letters to the library, i offered to help people dual boot, i showed people my computer running free software. i showed them the fsf website.

nobody wants to install an os. most people dont even want a computer. but they have one, because "it does stuff." they dont want the computer, they want the stuff that it does. this is an important distinction, because you or i might want a computer. because we associate the computer with its abilities. they dont. at least not all of them.

"does it do facebook?" (i hate facebook as much as anybody, but i know how many people want to know this, despite the fact that i recommend people not use it.) it used to be email, now its facebook.

even operating systems say more about a computer than the computer itself. im a mac-- im a pc. i do facebook. this is about software, not hardware. most people dont think about hardware when they think about computing. they think in terms of applications, as theyre trained to do.

all the same, they know when the computer is broken-- thats typically when their software stops working. it might not have anything to with the computer itself. or perhaps they spilled something. but i stopped fixing windows computers, i stopped trying to convince people to dual-boot.

i simply told people with working computers that i take used computers and fix them and give them away. then i would take their used computers, fix them and give them away. the way i did this was to wait for someone to have computer problems and say "you can borrow this one. if you like it, you can keep it."

most people dont want a computer, let alone a spare. so they like knowing they dont "have to" keep the free computer. thats the only way some will let an extra one into their home. however once theyre happy with it, they want to keep it. so they have the option (it was my intention all along to let them keep it.)

and this was how i promoted free software, specifically debian. until about 2015, when i quit to design simple programming languages instead.

im still looking for a good distro to replace debian. i do think of the debian-based distros, mx and antix have the most promise. i spent a lot of time with devuan. i developed my favourite programming language on devuan. i havent really used devuan for more than a few minutes in well over a year.

we need computer literate people to help us make it through the next era of free software development. we cant rely on schools to produce them. we cant rely on our software to remain free-as-in-freedom unless we stand up for users, as well as ourselves.

but we need to try to solve the literacy problem. and thats what ive spent the past few years trying to rally people about. we dont need them to all be developers, just like traditional literacy isnt about getting everyone to write a novel.

we need to find a cure for the visceral fear of learning that schools instill in computer users. we can still make user-friendly software, but we should not cater to the fearmongering and encouraged helplessness that marketers and monopolies rely on. if we were all part-time educators in this, we could produce an abundance of education.

and make that part of the gnu/whatever-kernel experience. (i dont think linux is going to be the most popular kernel in 10-15 years.)

i already know what sorts of reasons people think this wont work, or why they think its wrong. ive already taken those reasons into account when i say these things. but simple educational languages are a requirement. all ui is based on communication. but too much of it is designed as a way of avoiding basic literacy. thats fine for beginners, but it robs people who have already used computers for years. they deserve better options, and training that is less incomplete.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:45 am
by Artim
I'm one of those people.
It's a completely irrational fear, but it's quite real. I have always felt like I am playing with fire whenever I use a computer. It's a great tool, but if it "gets away from you" it could burn the whole world up. Press one wrong button and...

Image


That irrational fear remains even though I have done all kindsa geeky scary things with my computer, partitioning the hard drive and changing OSes and other things that still scare the heck out of me but have to be done anyway sometimes. Just knowing that the worst thing that can happen is not a nuclear blast, but merely the loss of data or maybe damage to the machine helps me be "brave" and do what needs to be done.

Like any other phobia, there's no reasoning with it. Just overcoming with "desensitizing," repeatedly confronting the fear. A little at a time to start, then gradually working up to bolder and bolder stuff - like partitioning a hard drive and installing a whole 'nother OS.

It's a true phobia, as much as fear of flying, fear of heights, claustrophobia, and all the rest.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:52 am
by freemedia2018
computers Do Stuff and until you understand computers, the stuff is unexpected.

in order to have expectations, you need to have knowledge and experience.

experience isnt enough. people have experienced the dark without gaining knowledge of whats in it. the fear of the unknown is a factor here, though i still blame education. why? because its what changed the most from something that could work to something that doesnt. education, vs. fear of the unknown. the problem is that education is lacking. that is, education-- not self-education. not everyone is eager enough or equipped to be an autodidact at first.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:26 am
by oops
Artim wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:45 am ...
It's a true phobia, as much as fear of flying, fear of heights, claustrophobia, and all the rest.
+1, Exactly.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:02 am
by Pierre
some folks, even get lost, when "an Icon" is *not* in it's usual place:
- they don't look around the Entire Desktop Screen - - which ain't that big .. ..

it doesn't help. when one of those Big Computer Software Companies - - keeps changing, the way "things work".
- - that alone, does confuse most folks.

they don't look for H is for Help
- - at the top of the screen .. no - higher up .. right at the Top .. that's it !.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:54 am
by KoO
"I don't know anything about computers" Ya YES but your computer knows lots about YOU. :hell:

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:11 am
by jeffreyC
chrispop99 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:37 am I do support users, on a non-professional basis. It's quite frustrating that some people won't make the effort to find out a little about something they use a lot, but in my experience it's not just with computers. How many car owners even bother opening the handbook that comes with their car? I don't reckon it's many!

Chris
But strangely enough they still drive the car............... much as I wish many of them would stay off the road.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:34 am
by dolphin_oracle
I was once told that 99% of tech support is being willing to push the button.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:37 am
by radonrose
chrispop99 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:37 am How many car owners even bother opening the handbook that comes with their car? I don't reckon it's many!
Exactly this. A lot of people nowadays use computers, but most of them did not have mandatory training at first. Whereas the important stuff of a car's handbook are taught in driver's lessons as well (you still need to read it, as more and more technologies are integrated into automobiles).
freemedia2018 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:52 am the fear of the unknown is a factor here, though i still blame education. why? because its what changed the most from something that could work to something that doesnt. education, vs. fear of the unknown. the problem is that education is lacking.
When I was in elementary school, not all schools had English classes. In junior high, students were separated into beginners and advanced, so as to prepare each group in a different way for senior high, where a basic knowledge of English was mandatory. On paper, this was perfect; beginners were supposed to learn English strictly as a language, and advanced students were supposed to dwell into more cultural aspects like literature and poetry, without losing contact (and in some high schools this worked as expected).
Computer classes started in junior high school as well, and we were unofficially separated into beginners and advanced users as well. But this was only for leniency, and most of us didn't learn anything after at least four years, one hour per week. I remember students who had experience with MS Paint and Office from home, finishing high school knowing nothing more. I've studied info/com, and I remember people not knowing how to install Dev-C++ for first semester homework.
But I've also seen people at my parents' age being offered free lessons in their workplace, offered one hour off of work to take a two-hour lesson, and they opted out. This made me cynical enough to say that we either make lessons mandatory, or just leave the computer-phobics out on their own.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:46 am
by richb
dolphin_oracle wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:34 am I was once told that 99% of tech support is being willing to push the button.
I have told people to just push every button you see, You will learn something.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:59 am
by rokytnji.1
I don't over think these things. The online world is burning me out as it is.
Yeah, I noticed.

I take into consideration I did not learn Spanish in a day. So I give some slack.


Like computers. Learning new language can be intimidating also. Learning Linux after becoming Windows expert.
I equate with knowing the Kings English in Jaurez Mexico. Useless.

Example. sda1 vs c drive.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:24 pm
by freemedia2018
Pierre wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:02 am some folks, even get lost, when "an Icon" is *not* in it's usual place:
- they don't look around the Entire Desktop Screen - - which ain't that big .. ..
this is a perfect example really. lay everything out in a 2x2 grid, and people will expect to find something in the same place, regardless of how the grid works.

three things go wrong there: first, they arent taught how to find things. second, the grid is not reliable (im not saying a grid of icons should be reliable, but there are so many other things that get moved around without good cause, leading to problems and need for the same superficial retraining.) third, the lack of a solution that doesnt require knowing what spot on the screen to find something.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:27 pm
by Mauser
Interesting observations and opinions. When it comes to computers some people are born with the ability to be savvy while others aren't. It's like you are born mechanically inclined or not and if you have two left hands there is no teaching that can change that. Same like Linus Torvalds said that he is horrible when it comes to computers and doing the kernel is his thing. The other thing I remember watching a video years ago that explained it best about Linux is it's easier if you never used Windows or Mac. Once you use either long enough it's tough to break old habits. The hardest for me coming from Windows to Linux is the command line because I born without the ability to learn it even though I have tried since the early 1980's. What I do now is save commands in a document on what they do when someone posts it. I was born with excellent mechanically abilities mentally and physically. We have people from all different backgrounds and education in the Linux community, not everyone went to school to learn computers like in my case there was no such thing as computer classes in school.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:07 pm
by Artim
My school has mandatory "computer literacy" classes, but they're all classes on how to Microsoft Outlook, Microsoft Office, Microsoft this and Microsoft that! Even the kids who have Macs have to learn all that Microsoft stuff. It makes me wonder if the school is getting some kind of money deal to push MS products. I'm breezing through the class, but not one bit happy about it. I asked the teacher why we should be locked into a single vendor when there are (better) alternatives. No one knows.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:17 pm
by freemedia2018
Artim wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:07 pm My school has mandatory "computer literacy" classes, but they're all classes on how to Microsoft Outlook, Microsoft Office, Microsoft this and Microsoft that! Even the kids who have Macs have to learn all that Microsoft stuff. It makes me wonder if the school is getting some kind of money deal to push MS products.
bill and melinda gates foundation.

thats not computer literacy, its consumer training. microsoft has exploited public schools for decades. apple is no saint, either. the schools should be ashamed.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:38 pm
by JayM
freemedia2018 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:17 pm
Artim wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:07 pm My school has mandatory "computer literacy" classes, but they're all classes on how to Microsoft Outlook, Microsoft Office, Microsoft this and Microsoft that! Even the kids who have Macs have to learn all that Microsoft stuff. It makes me wonder if the school is getting some kind of money deal to push MS products.
bill and melinda gates foundation.

thats not computer literacy, its consumer training. microsoft has exploited public schools for decades. apple is no saint, either. the schools should be ashamed.
I'm pretty sure that's inaccurate. Microsoft has had a policy of donating or subsidizing software and licenses to schools for decades.

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is a global charitable institution that's done a lot of good things for a lot of people. Here in the Philippines for example they've provided rabies vaccinations for animals to try to eradicate rabies from the country, and worked with local governments and city/provincial veterinarian's offices to set up free vaccination clinics in all the neighborhoods, towns and villages as well as in more remote areas.

I don't think the two have anything to do with each other.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:42 pm
by junoluna
i installed MX for a friend a few weeks back ... she sent me a message this morning asking why she couldn't make google work

her electric was off ...

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:52 pm
by JayM
An ex cow-orker (co-worker) of mine used to do computer support for a small regional bank. He told me that one of their branches was changing locations and one user decided that instead of waiting for IT to move his computer to the new building and set it up he'd move his own PC on a weekend, then he called support because he couldn't make it turn on. It turns out he'd plugged the PC and monitor into the power strip, then plugged the power strip...into the power strip! No connection to the power outlet in the wall. :frustrated:

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:56 pm
by freemedia2018
JayM wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:38 pmMicrosoft has had a policy of donating or subsidizing software and licenses to schools for decades.
pushers have a habit of getting people hooked on free stuff so that they become regular customers.

i know that metaphor is going to convince a couple people im just being prejudiced here; gates is not a nice person. like many incredibly rich people, he has more money than he will ever be able to spend and has invested some of it in a legacy. mark zuckerberg does the same kind of stuff that the gates foundation does-- hes not a nice person either.
The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is a global charitable institution that's done a lot of good things for a lot of people. Here in the Philippines for example they've provided rabies vaccinations for animals to try to eradicate rabies from the country, and worked with local governments and city/provincial veterinarian's offices to set up free vaccination clinics in all the neighborhoods, towns and villages as well as in more remote areas.
hes invested in a lot of bad stuff too. stuff that we are told will feed the world, but is more likely to give them cancer.
I don't think the two have anything to do with each other.
its a popular subject among disillusioned techies.

when bad people get involved in charity, the causes get money and the bad people get more control over non-profits.

microsofts tactics taking over for-profit institutions is well known.

a lot of their biggest "competition" straddles the non-profit sector. bill wants his hands on the medical industry and the foundation has angered a lot of teachers over the years.

you can use non-profit foundations to drag public institutions in whatever direction you want. with regards to education specifically, the gates foundation has worked to push schools in the direction that gates wants-- all that money has strings attached.

the two are not completely unrelated at all, just because they really should be.
JayM wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:52 pmIt turns out he'd plugged the PC and monitor into the power strip, then plugged the power strip...into the power strip!
ideally this would create a portable, unlimited supply of power for computers and peripherals. i wasnt able to get it working though.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:53 pm
by Mauser
junoluna wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:42 pm i installed MX for a friend a few weeks back ... she sent me a message this morning asking why she couldn't make google work

her electric was off ...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:16 pm
by tascoast
JayM wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:52 pm
It turns out he'd plugged the PC and monitor into the power strip, then plugged the power strip...into the power strip!

ideally this would create a portable, unlimited supply of power for computers and peripherals. i wasnt able to get it working though.
The trick is to plug into the power outlet to get the electrickery spinning inside the computer, then quickly swap the plug to the power board before the electrickery inside the computer stops spinning, so that the whole thing keeps running by itself.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:37 am
by mjtux
JayM wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:57 am I noticed that a few normal, reasonable, intelligent people seem to throw their common sense and their ability to think and reason right out the window as soon as a computer enters the equation. They can no longer even read and follow instructions.
I STILL get that way sometimes, when I'm tired and frustrated.
I've been using computers for over thirty years and started with a programming curriculum in 1986.
It helps to remember where I started. The first computer I tried to use was a Kaypro portable. Two 5.25 inch floppys and no hard drive. I couldn't figure out how to turn it ON. There was no visible button or switch. It was humiliating. I had to find the User's Manual and hunt for an answer - the power supply switch on the back.
Once turned on, I saw a bunch of text that was meaningless.
The last line was something about "Non-system disk ...". There was no other response so I turned it off.
Pierre wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:02 am some folks, even get lost, when "an Icon" is *not* in it's usual place:
- they don't look around the Entire Desktop Screen - - which ain't that big .. ..
One morning I got a call that people in an office were freaking out because some colors had changed in their database software. They thought the whole network had been hacked.
I had done some online maintenance the night before. When I finished, I decided to make things look a little better. WOW, big mistake!

richb wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:46 am I have told people to just push every button you see, You will learn something.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

JayM wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:52 pm An ex cow-orker (co-worker) of mine ...
:laugh:

..... he called support because he couldn't make it turn on. It turns out he'd plugged the PC and monitor into the power strip, then plugged the power strip...into the power strip! No connection to the power outlet in the wall. :frustrated:
That doesn't seem possible.
I've heard of people calling tech support because the printer wouldn't work. When the technician got there, the printer was not plugged in.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:36 am
by JayM
mjtux wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:37 am The first computer I tried to use was a Kaypro portable. Two 5.25 inch floppys and no hard drive. I couldn't figure out how to turn it ON. There was no visible button or switch. It was humiliating. I had to find the User's Manual and hunt for an answer - the power supply switch on the back.
Once turned on, I saw a bunch of text that was meaningless.
The last line was something about "Non-system disk ...". There was no other response so I turned it off.
Mine was an Altair 8080 connected to a teletypewriter that had a paper tape reader/writer on the side. The boot sequence consisted of toggling in a byte using a row of 8 toggle switches and a momentary-contact push-button switch to enter it, then repeating for the remaining bytes until it could recognize the TTY. Then I'd load a roll of paper tape that had BASIC, then another one for whatever game I wanted to play: mugwumps, lunar lander, battleship, or to print my biorhythms for the day. Each move in the games got printed on a roll of newsprint-like paper. It wasn't my computer, it belonged to the college I was attending at the time (1975-78.)
Pierre wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:02 am some folks, even get lost, when "an Icon" is *not* in it's usual place:
- they don't look around the Entire Desktop Screen - - which ain't that big .. ..
When I was doing desktop support I had a user/customer exactly like that. Her desktop had to be set up just so including her icons and shortcuts, and if anything didn't work correctly she'd get so upset she'd go home sick with a "migraine" headache. Even something like not being able to print to the networked printer she was used to using, when there were plenty of others on the same floor not that far away. Nice person, but boy! Did she ever require patience and mollycoddling. Re-imaging her computer took an entire afternoon where with most people maybe 20 minutes.
mjtux wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:37 am One morning I got a call that people in an office were freaking out because some colors had changed in their database software. They thought the whole network had been hacked.
I had done some online maintenance the night before. When I finished, I decided to make things look a little better. WOW, big mistake!
You should never do that in a production environment without getting prior approval, you know. Or at least, you know now. :happy:

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:07 pm
by freemedia2018
tascoast wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:16 pm The trick is to plug into the power outlet to get the electrickery spinning inside the computer, then quickly swap the plug to the power board before the electrickery inside the computer stops spinning
worked, thanks!

tip: wear insulted pvc gloves when doing work with the electrickery spinner! (any good insult will do)

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:28 pm
by seaken64
JayM wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:57 am They can no longer even read and follow instructions.

If any of you have ever done computer support, have you ever noticed this?
In my experience if someone does in fact read and follow instructions they will be fine. Most people prefer not to read instructions. They believe they "should be able to use the damn thing without having to read nuthin!"

The people who want to know how it works will be fine. If a person wants to know how to change their own oil in the car, or replace the battery, they will read up on it (a book about cars in our day, or, these days, at least watch a YouTube video or two). But most users do not want to know how or why. All they know is "it's broken" and call you to fix it.

Further up in the topic someone mentioned they couldn't figure out how to turn it on. A good client gets out the manual and reads about how to turn it on. But most people will call the tech and wait. The tech comes and flicks the switch - it's fixed!

I am also a technician for gas stoves and fireplaces. Most people are afraid of gas. I can show them how to light the pilot or replace the batteries in the remote. But most will just call and wait for me to come do it. They are afraid. I think it's the same with computers. (Although it's less reasonable with computers - nothing's going to blow up!)

My best clients can be talked thru it on the phone and they often surprise themselves. But they call me again if they don't recognize what they see, even after they have already done it. Fear.

And yes, never change the screen color, or type size, or add an entry box, or anything else without first having a staff meeting to let everyone know that things are going to change. They'll just sit there until you come in so they can show you their screen. Been there, done that!

Seaken64

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:58 pm
by Mauser
seaken64 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:28 pm
JayM wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:57 am They can no longer even read and follow instructions.

If any of you have ever done computer support, have you ever noticed this?
In my experience if someone does in fact read and follow instructions they will be fine. Most people prefer not to read instructions. They believe they "should be able to use the damn thing without having to read nuthin!"

The people who want to know how it works will be fine. If a person wants to know how to change their own oil in the car, or replace the battery, they will read up on it (a book about cars in our day, or, these days, at least watch a YouTube video or two). But most users do not want to know how or why. All they know is "it's broken" and call you to fix it.


Seaken64
It doesn't always work like that. Depending on how well the instructions are written and if they are written in laymen terms or not determines if they can follow those instructions. If they can't understand understand the instructions they won't be fine. As for changing oil you are wrong. I am a retired automotive technician and I have seen my share of those following instructions that have two left hands. Two gaskets on an oil filter, stripped oil pan threads and drain plug threads, loose drain plugs, leaking oil drain plug seal because they didn't change it when it needed to be changed, not loosing an oil filter first that faces down so the dirty oil can drain into the oil pan, extended oil change intervals, and wrong oil used, and using those cheap Group 7 oil filters that the filter media usually breaks apart clogging the oil pickup. I look at it as job security.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:13 pm
by seaken64
Mauser wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:58 pm
seaken64 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:28 pm
JayM wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:57 am They can no longer even read and follow instructions.

If any of you have ever done computer support, have you ever noticed this?
In my experience if someone does in fact read and follow instructions they will be fine. Most people prefer not to read instructions. They believe they "should be able to use the damn thing without having to read nuthin!"

The people who want to know how it works will be fine. If a person wants to know how to change their own oil in the car, or replace the battery, they will read up on it (a book about cars in our day, or, these days, at least watch a YouTube video or two). But most users do not want to know how or why. All they know is "it's broken" and call you to fix it.


Seaken64
It doesn't always work like that. Depending on how well the instructions are written and if they are written in laymen terms or not determines if they can follow those instructions. If they can't understand understand the instructions they won't be fine. As for changing oil you are wrong. I am a retired automotive technician and I have seen my share of those following instructions that have two left hands. Two gaskets on an oil filter, stripped oil pan threads and drain plug threads, loose drain plugs, leaking oil drain plug seal because they didn't change it when it needed to be changed, not loosing an oil filter first that faces down so the dirty oil can drain into the oil pan, extended oil change intervals, and wrong oil used, and using those cheap Group 7 oil filters that the filter media usually breaks apart clogging the oil pickup. I look at it as job security.
Yes, point taken. But if someone really wants to learn they will do it. It might take them some time and they may make some mistakes and need someone to show them where they went wrong. Most people just don't want to learn stuff. If they can afford it they call the tech. But if they can't afford to pay the tech then they will have to learn, or not drive, or go without the computer.

And people always complain that the manual sucks!

Seaken64

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:21 pm
by Mauser
seaken64 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:13 pm
Mauser wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:58 pm
seaken64 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:28 pm

Yes, point taken. But if someone really wants to learn they will do it. It might take them some time and they may make some mistakes and need someone to show them where they went wrong. Most people just don't want to learn stuff. If they can afford it they call the tech. But if they can't afford to pay the tech then they will have to learn, or not drive, or go without the computer.

And people always complain that the manual sucks!

Seaken64
You still don't get it. There are some that no matter how hard they try to learn about computers they can't. The same goes for working on Automobiles. You are born with certain talents and born without other talents. No teaching in the world can change that. Here is a good example of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHGTs1NSB1s So you are saying Linus Torvalds doesn't want to learn? Quote didn't work correctly.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:46 pm
by seaken64
Mauser wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:21 pm You still don't get it. There are some that no matter how hard they try to learn about computers they can't. The same goes for working on Automobiles. You are born with certain talents and born without other talents. No teaching in the world can change that. Here is a good example of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHGTs1NSB1s So you are saying Linus Torvalds doesn't want to learn? Quote didn't work correctly.
I suppose. I can't argue against your statement. There are learning disabilities. But something tells me that people like Linus would learn what they need to learn. Learning disabilities aside, I think anyone can learn regardless of talent. I think it has more to do with fear and desire than it does the inability to learn. But your idea on this is just as valid.

Seaken64

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:15 pm
by freemedia2018
seaken64 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:46 pmI think anyone can learn regardless of talent. I think it has more to do with fear and desire than it does the inability to learn.
that is certainly the direction things are going in. they are finding that the better the education gets, the better the odds of learning. this does not mean that good education is common. just as incompetent and unskilled users can still end up using a cd tray as a cup holder (ok, im sure thats 98% urban legend. but im just sure that someones really done it) there are teachers who get hired without an ability to teach. and most of them going to take out their lack of skills on their students. dunning kruger applies here.

however, one thing that supports what mouser is saying is that manuals often assume more knowledge than the user needs. that-- and lack of taking instructions seriously, means there are always people who screw things up. some could rehabilitate themselves. many never will. but i think its important to maintain the real difference between cant and wont. and also lazy, narcissistic teachers vs. allegedly hopeless students.

not that a lazy student is likely to do well. they arent. not everything can be blamed on the teacher. but a lazy student doesnt mean theyre born unteachable. it lowers the odds that they will learn-- more than their innate ability.

people are born with certain aptitudes, yes-- and being good at something does encourage people to learn more about it. we arent all going be mozart, but everybody can play a piano chord or mary had a little lamb-- theres a lot of range between those-- even i can play mary had a little lamb. sometimes people have unreasonably high expectations too-- asian parents for example (its NOT just a stereotype, people actually die over it.) but that doesnt mean we need to dumb down everything. it means there are unreasonably low expectations-- then reasonable expectations-- then unreasonably high expectations. which expectations are which comes down to real life data and statistics, as well as improvements in teaching (which hardly ever make it into mainstream education, of course!)

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:24 pm
by jeffreyC
No, the cup holder story is not an urban myth, I knew the guy that got that tech support call back in the mid 1990s.

Ignorance about computers was normal then.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:48 am
by freemedia2018
jeffreyC wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:24 pmIgnorance about computers was normal then.
its more normal now, there is simply less excuse.

i dont blame anybody entirely. the reasons are interesting. im very interested in fixing them, or at least creating a viable plan for fixing them. as far as passion about it goes, im a bit like the greta thunberg of computer literacy-- with fewer backers, alas. i dont care about the money. i dont care about the fame (happy to hand that off to someone else.) i want the results.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:03 am
by Artim
I used to have a screensaver that read,

Code: Select all

Press any key to continue or any other key to quit

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:24 pm
by seaken64
Artim wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:03 am I used to have a screensaver that read,

Code: Select all

Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
And you were looking for the keys marked "Any" and "Any Other"? :happy:

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:37 pm
by jeffreyC
Years ago when I saw 'Press Any Key' I did just that, and after pressing every key one after another I found that the only key that worked is the space bar. The definition of any which I was taught in school is clearly different from that of the instruction writers.

This is more confusing than the UNIX tradition of calling the Enter key the Return key, or calling the Windows key either Super or Meta.

Makes me more sympathetic to those resisting learning about computers when I think about how obtuse some of the directions are.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:26 am
by freemedia2018
jeffreyC wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:37 pm This is more confusing than the UNIX tradition of calling the Enter key the Return key, or calling the Windows key either Super or Meta.
i started with timex and ibm-brand keyboards. i dont think i noticed a "return" key until i used an apple. but i dont think this is about the operating system.

"enter" is a computer-related term, for data entry, i think. return means carriage return, the thing on the typewriter (or teletype-- so rather than a unix thing this could just be a generational thing) that you slide back after each line is typed so it can keep moving the paper past the centre-aligned typewriter heads. ibm electric typewriters had a moving head (like on a dot matrix printer) so the carriage didnt move. im sure they called it "return" on dtss (dartmouth) and multics as well.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:14 am
by Artim
seaken64 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:24 pm
Artim wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:03 am I used to have a screensaver that read,

Code: Select all

Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
And you were looking for the keys marked "Any" and "Any Other"? :happy:
One of the benefits of autism, for me at least, has been literalism! It has become a source of many funny stories.

Re: "I don't know anything about computers"

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:03 am
by oops
Artim wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:14 am
seaken64 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:24 pm
Artim wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:03 am I used to have a screensaver that read,

Code: Select all

Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
And you were looking for the keys marked "Any" and "Any Other"? :happy:
...
LOL ... Press any key to continue or any other key to quit, or both to escape ;-)