Dedoimedo review of MX-18
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:11 pm
Here's his review:
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/mx-18-lenovo.html
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/mx-18-lenovo.html
Support for MX and antiX Linux distros
http://www.forum.mxlinux.org/
I agree. I've been banging around a bit playing with things....Adrian wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:07 pm Great review, we also should not be complacent and try to improve things.
I have been prototyping that (multiple panels) in the children's MX Desktop I'm building. There's good and bad news to using xfce-panels rather than Plank.richb wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:28 pm Always room for improvement. Perfection is an elusive goal we should aspire to. One comment, an application only panel can be achieved by adding a second xfce panel without needing plank or other panel apps. But that is not obvious and maybe an MX Tweak option could be developed. Thinking out loud.
I am glad id doesn't.xfce-panel looks really old school because the icons do not change size as you Mouseover them....
The thing is that people younger than we are... yes, there are a few :lipsrsealed: ... are used to having certain icon behaviors. Xfce-panel doesn't have them.richb wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:49 pmI am glad id doesn't.xfce-panel looks really old school because the icons do not change size as you Mouseover them....![]()
You are right and I was going to refer to my old fa%^ism but desisted.manyroads wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:54 pmThe thing is that people younger than we are... yes, there are a few :lipsrsealed: ... are used to having certain icon behaviors. Xfce-panel doesn't have them.richb wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:49 pmI am glad id doesn't.xfce-panel looks really old school because the icons do not change size as you Mouseover them....![]()
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Yes it veered off from a comment about the panel addition he made. My fault.Jerry3904 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:46 pm This thread unraveled pretty quickly...loose threads all over the place.
I'm new enough here to miss the nuances. Sorry.Jerry3904 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:55 pm I'm not particularly pleased with the review or the bottom line. Need to think about this for a while...
IMO we should try to replicate and address some of the issues. If this is possible.Jerry3904 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:55 pm I'm not particularly pleased with the review or the bottom line. Need to think about this for a while...
I can see the reviewer's concerns about 'beauty' & eye-candy; but xfce has constraints. I, also, agree with @anticapitalista, beauty should not be more important than technical excellence. antiX & MX are technically excellent (full stop).
I agree that D. complained about aesthetics but he also pointed out bugs and other problems. I'm not going to copy and paste them all here. IMO D.'s reviews have always been valuable to us. I'm sure there are some things we can't fix and other things we don't want to fix but there are also things that we should try to fix. I don't have the time/energy now but we could copy and paste D's various issues into a list and then decide how to handle each one.manyroads wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:23 pmThe question is: "Are we happy with the aesthetics of MX?" If not, then we have work to do...
Here's the thread viewtopic.php?t=46164I also wanted to use the global menu (topmenu) plugin for Xfce, as I've shown you in my tutorial, but I hit a whole slew of problems there. The plugin did nothing, and only after making a whole bunch of environment changes did it run. I actually used a thread on MX Linux forums to do this.
Maybe he should go for vala-panel-appmenu; I used to put it on the top panel for some time on MATE (Ubuntu repo) and it worked out of the box. It's Xfce-compatible as well.colin_b wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:07 pm I agree with BitJam, if someone offers constructive criticism then it should be considered.
From the article:
Here's the thread viewtopic.php?t=46164I also wanted to use the global menu (topmenu) plugin for Xfce, as I've shown you in my tutorial, but I hit a whole slew of problems there. The plugin did nothing, and only after making a whole bunch of environment changes did it run. I actually used a thread on MX Linux forums to do this.
Criticism with a suggested solution.
That's useful.
We do all of that and more: the Most Extensive Live-usb on the Planet!dreamer wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:25 pm Dedoimedo is sensitive about the live session and that the live session should save changes made. I think this is an odd opinion. Most people "play" in live-mode before installing. Then when they install they expect the distro to be in mint (untouched) condition.
So if live changes are to be saved, there should be a dialog asking if you want those changes to carry over to the installation. From a support perspective it's important to know that people start with a fresh installation.
Wow, that's surprising to me -- I thought this sort of problem must be quite rare.BitJam wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:47 pmWe've had problems in the past of the live system working but the installed system failing. The live system will often make changes tuned for your particular hardware. If these changes aren't carried over then the installed system may not boot or work properly. The idea is that since the live system booted, the safest default is to use the same settings the live system used for the installed system. Since we implemented this idea the number of reports of certain types of problems have plummeted.
I think his main issue was that his network settings and password was not carried over to his installed MX18, when it did in his tests and reviews of earlier releases. I seem to recall him being impressed in an earlier review that his wifi connection carried over after install so he didn't need to set up his password again.dreamer wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:25 pm Dedoimedo is sensitive about the live session and that the live session should save changes made. I think this is an odd opinion. Most people "play" in live-mode before installing. Then when they install they expect the distro to be in mint (untouched) condition.
So if live changes are to be saved, there should be a dialog asking if you want those changes to carry over to the installation. From a support perspective it's important to know that people start with a fresh installation.
Here's the thread viewtopic.php?t=46164
Criticism with a suggested solution.
I've read his articles for years. What got me started with him, besides his being a member of a security forum that I was a member of long ago, was his ranting against regressions in Linux distros.asqwerth wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:30 am But issues that appear to be regressions from MX17 are of concern and should be checked on.
Yes and no.asqwerth wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:30 am
I think his main issue was that his network settings and password was not carried over to his installed MX18, when it did in his tests and reviews of earlier releases. I seem to recall him being impressed in an earlier review that his wifi connection carried over after install so he didn't need to set up his password again.
If so, then that is possibly a regression so needs to be checked out.
the user already has to specify that live home folder changes will be saved, its not automatic, and such I don't feel a dialog is necessary in that case. I'm glad he likes the option though.dreamer wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:25 pm Dedoimedo is sensitive about the live session and that the live session should save changes made. I think this is an odd opinion. Most people "play" in live-mode before installing. Then when they install they expect the distro to be in mint (untouched) condition.
So if live changes are to be saved, there should be a dialog asking if you want those changes to carry over to the installation. From a support perspective it's important to know that people start with a fresh installation.
Hmm, re-reading his review and searching through his older reviews, I think he might be saying that when he saved the live session settings previously, the connection settings used to be copied over and now it doesn't, not that the installed system used to automatically connect to the saved network settings.dolphin_oracle wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:52 am I've avoided this thread because I don't generally like to publicly comment on reviewer article content, but I'll respond to these 2 items from mx users.
Yes and no.asqwerth wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:30 am
I think his main issue was that his network settings and password was not carried over to his installed MX18, when it did in his tests and reviews of earlier releases. I seem to recall him being impressed in an earlier review that his wifi connection carried over after install so he didn't need to set up his password again.
If so, then that is possibly a regression so needs to be checked out.
debian's implementation of network-manager defaults to only allowing the user that creates the network connection to connect to it later. since our live-USB uses the "demo" account and an installed system is not likely to have a "demo" account, the user isn't allowed to connect, by default. the connection settings themselves do copy over.
the solution is what ubuntu does...default to allowing "all users" to connect to a defined wifi connection. If you do this manually on a live system and then install, the installed system will connect upon reboot.
This is not actually a regression, its exactly the same since mx15. ....
MX15 comments on same thing:...However, in the installed desktop, my Wireless network wasn't preserved!
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/mx-15.html...my live session data was saved, including network config, even the failed Bluetooth games, all my screenshots and downloads, my panel configurations, everything.
You should always check Package Installer first, where that app requires a single click on your part!I prefer Audacious, which was was in the repository. But! I did have to install it myself, and I had to click and enter a password, my arthritic fingers did so.
I agree in general with his complaints about regressions in Linux. It's why I've focused more and more on Debian and Debian-based distros. Ubuntu and Ubuntu-based distros seem continually filled with regression, some of which is constant kernel updates, and that is the one place I've seen regressions on my own hardware with MX. It seems too often in the Linux community distros and devs are too obsessed with the 'latest and greatest' instead of fixing bugs and focusing on stability--so I'm fully on board with that complaint. Thankfully MX has continually proved to be one of the most stable, only suffering from problems with newer kernels and Firefox's rapid updates without bug fixing which is not an MX issue.Redacted wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:31 am
I've read his articles for years. What got me started with him, besides his being a member of a security forum that I was a member of long ago, was his ranting against regressions in Linux distros.
I don't know about these particular ones in MX, but if you look at the Linux world in general, he has a strong point.
Q1: Would it be possible (and sensible) to make allowing "all users" to connect the default on the live-iso? Maybe root is allowed anyway because both demo and root need net access so this issue doesn't arise until an install.dolphin_oracle wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:52 amdebian's implementation of network-manager defaults to only allowing the user that creates the network connection to connect to it later. since our live-USB uses the "demo" account and an installed system is not likely to have a "demo" account, the user isn't allowed to connect, by default. the connection settings themselves do copy over.
the solution is what ubuntu does...default to allowing "all users" to connect to a defined wifi connection. If you do this manually on a live system and then install, the installed system will connect upon reboot.
I have finally learned that! My first instinct is still synaptic, but, I'm working on that. Yes, the Package Installer is great.Jerry3904 wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:41 amYou should always check Package Installer first, where that app requires a single click on your part!I prefer Audacious, which was was in the repository. But! I did have to install it myself, and I had to click and enter a password, my arthritic fingers did so.
I do recall this in the past and I think one of the policy files in /usr/ had to be altered for the default to be save for all users. Cannot recall the details but I am sure they would be in the forums somewhereBitJam wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:32 pmQ1: Would it be possible (and sensible) to make allowing "all users" to connect the default on the live-iso? Maybe root is allowed anyway because both demo and root need net access so this issue doesn't arise until an install.dolphin_oracle wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:52 amdebian's implementation of network-manager defaults to only allowing the user that creates the network connection to connect to it later. since our live-USB uses the "demo" account and an installed system is not likely to have a "demo" account, the user isn't allowed to connect, by default. the connection settings themselves do copy over.
the solution is what ubuntu does...default to allowing "all users" to connect to a defined wifi connection. If you do this manually on a live system and then install, the installed system will connect upon reboot.
Q2: If "no" to Q1, would it be possible or easy to change the Network Manager user from "demo" to the new account created by the user during install?
There is always a trade-off between security and convenience but this feature seems to add a lot of inconvenience for a modicum of security. But maybe there are failure modes I'm unaware of.
Nice useful info, thanks. My plan is to free my software from being tied to specific hardware. I'm tired of maintaining multiple installations. Internal disk space can be used as storage space for files that aren't important.BitJam wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:47 pm We do all of that and more: the Most Extensive Live-usb on the Planet!
If and when any distribution starts its live test session with so much as a tiniest network-related glitch, be it Samba, printing, a copy operation or anything or that sort, I will terminate the testing immediately and report back with the most scathing review and a perfect zero score.
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/lin ... -rosa.htmlMy day is ruined now, thank you. Rosa, 0/10. Total fail. Next please.
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/lin ... -xfce.htmlNo matter what I tried, Rosa Xfce handled it gracefully, with speed and elegance. This warrants a perfect score. It's been a while, but we're back in the game. 10/10. Rosa Xfce, YOUR next distro.