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Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:11 pm
by Redacted

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:07 pm
by Adrian
Great review, we also should not be complacent and try to improve things.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:16 pm
by manyroads
Adrian wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:07 pm Great review, we also should not be complacent and try to improve things.
I agree. I've been banging around a bit playing with things.... :p :eek:

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:28 pm
by richb
Always room for improvement. Perfection is an elusive goal we should aspire to. One comment, an application only panel can be achieved by adding a second xfce panel without needing plank or other panel apps. But that is not obvious and maybe an MX Tweak option could be developed. Thinking out loud.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:36 pm
by kc1di
Good review.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:45 pm
by manyroads
richb wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:28 pm Always room for improvement. Perfection is an elusive goal we should aspire to. One comment, an application only panel can be achieved by adding a second xfce panel without needing plank or other panel apps. But that is not obvious and maybe an MX Tweak option could be developed. Thinking out loud.
I have been prototyping that (multiple panels) in the children's MX Desktop I'm building. There's good and bad news to using xfce-panels rather than Plank.
  • Plank doesn't come through on a snapshot always. I don't know why.
  • xfce-panel looks really old school because the icons do not change size as you Mouseover them....
  • xfce-panel though is stable, survives snapshots nicely and just works.
I do think MX would benefit greatly from an enhanced xfce-panel, as would the rest of the xfce world. Just offering an opinion with out thinking too hard (which is dangerous for me. :lipsrsealed: )

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:49 pm
by richb
xfce-panel looks really old school because the icons do not change size as you Mouseover them....
I am glad id doesn't. :rolleyes:

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:54 pm
by manyroads
richb wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:49 pm
xfce-panel looks really old school because the icons do not change size as you Mouseover them....
I am glad id doesn't. :rolleyes:
The thing is that people younger than we are... yes, there are a few :lipsrsealed: ... are used to having certain icon behaviors. Xfce-panel doesn't have them. :bawling:

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:59 pm
by richb
manyroads wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:54 pm
richb wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:49 pm
xfce-panel looks really old school because the icons do not change size as you Mouseover them....
I am glad id doesn't. :rolleyes:
The thing is that people younger than we are... yes, there are a few :lipsrsealed: ... are used to having certain icon behaviors. Xfce-panel doesn't have them. :bawling:
You are right and I was going to refer to my old fa%^ism but desisted.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:03 pm
by manyroads
Yes... perhaps best left as it is. ;) As my oldest grandson said this week (he's 5.5), "opa (that's me) I love you, even if you are old." :happy:

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:46 pm
by Jerry3904
This thread unraveled pretty quickly...loose threads all over the place.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:51 pm
by richb
Jerry3904 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:46 pm This thread unraveled pretty quickly...loose threads all over the place.
Yes it veered off from a comment about the panel addition he made. My fault.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:55 pm
by Jerry3904
I'm not particularly pleased with the review or the bottom line. Need to think about this for a while...

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:01 pm
by manyroads
Jerry3904 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:55 pm I'm not particularly pleased with the review or the bottom line. Need to think about this for a while...
I'm new enough here to miss the nuances. Sorry.

I do look forward to hearing your concerns @Jerry3904. I hope you know I am happy to help address challenges, obviously, within the limits of my skills.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:08 pm
by anticapitalista
TBH I have never liked his reviews (even though he has made positive ones about MX) since I think his focus is far too narrow i.e. far too much about aesthetics. (his main complaint about MX-18 is down to looks, which mostly relate to xfce - he seems to be in love with kde plasma looks now).
Fortunately, he has never reviewed antiX ( we would probably get less than 5)

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:10 pm
by BitJam
Jerry3904 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:55 pm I'm not particularly pleased with the review or the bottom line. Need to think about this for a while...
IMO we should try to replicate and address some of the issues. If this is possible.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:23 pm
by manyroads
BitJam wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:10 pm
Jerry3904 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:55 pm I'm not particularly pleased with the review or the bottom line. Need to think about this for a while...
IMO we should try to replicate and address some of the issues. If this is possible.
I can see the reviewer's concerns about 'beauty' & eye-candy; but xfce has constraints. I, also, agree with @anticapitalista, beauty should not be more important than technical excellence. antiX & MX are technically excellent (full stop).

"Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" --- anonymous, 3rd century BC Greece

The question is: "Are we happy with the aesthetics of MX?" If not, then we have work to do...

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:49 pm
by KBD
Clearly the guy is much happier with KDE where you can configure everything in three different ways :) But Xfce is faster, simpler in a good way, and yes--not always as pretty, but it's stable. I could pick apart KDE like he did Xfce for different issues. There are trade-offs with everything in Linux, or with any other OS for that matter.
He does have a few good points though. Bluetooth could be better. There is always room for improvement. Overall a good review with some nitpicking on eye candy.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:56 pm
by BitJam
manyroads wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:23 pmThe question is: "Are we happy with the aesthetics of MX?" If not, then we have work to do...
I agree that D. complained about aesthetics but he also pointed out bugs and other problems. I'm not going to copy and paste them all here. IMO D.'s reviews have always been valuable to us. I'm sure there are some things we can't fix and other things we don't want to fix but there are also things that we should try to fix. I don't have the time/energy now but we could copy and paste D's various issues into a list and then decide how to handle each one.

For example, when booting via UEFI on the live system we try to avoid the jump in resolution that D complains about by setting gfxpayload to the highest possible resolution. The jump happens when udev starts and a modesetting graphics driver is being used. Unless the "video=xxxx" boot parameter was given, the graphics driver will jump to the highest possible resolution. If we start out with that resolution then there is no jump or a very minimal one.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:07 pm
by colin_b
I agree with BitJam, if someone offers constructive criticism then it should be considered.

From the article:
I also wanted to use the global menu (topmenu) plugin for Xfce, as I've shown you in my tutorial, but I hit a whole slew of problems there. The plugin did nothing, and only after making a whole bunch of environment changes did it run. I actually used a thread on MX Linux forums to do this.
Here's the thread viewtopic.php?t=46164

Criticism with a suggested solution.

That's useful.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:29 pm
by manyroads
I think there are some beautiful implementations of MX shown here in the forums (in the showcase thread). Perhaps we could find a way to allow new users to select from some of those... perhaps downloading from the web so we don't make the install too fat. ;)

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:47 pm
by tomec
colin_b wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:07 pm I agree with BitJam, if someone offers constructive criticism then it should be considered.

From the article:
I also wanted to use the global menu (topmenu) plugin for Xfce, as I've shown you in my tutorial, but I hit a whole slew of problems there. The plugin did nothing, and only after making a whole bunch of environment changes did it run. I actually used a thread on MX Linux forums to do this.
Here's the thread viewtopic.php?t=46164

Criticism with a suggested solution.

That's useful.
Maybe he should go for vala-panel-appmenu; I used to put it on the top panel for some time on MATE (Ubuntu repo) and it worked out of the box. It's Xfce-compatible as well.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:25 pm
by dreamer
Dedoimedo is sensitive about the live session and that the live session should save changes made. I think this is an odd opinion. Most people "play" in live-mode before installing. Then when they install they expect the distro to be in mint (untouched) condition.

So if live changes are to be saved, there should be a dialog asking if you want those changes to carry over to the installation. From a support perspective it's important to know that people start with a fresh installation.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:47 pm
by BitJam
dreamer wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:25 pm Dedoimedo is sensitive about the live session and that the live session should save changes made. I think this is an odd opinion. Most people "play" in live-mode before installing. Then when they install they expect the distro to be in mint (untouched) condition.

So if live changes are to be saved, there should be a dialog asking if you want those changes to carry over to the installation. From a support perspective it's important to know that people start with a fresh installation.
We do all of that and more: the Most Extensive Live-usb on the Planet!

In the installer you have the choice of a fresh install or saving your changes from the live system. IMO, from a support perspective it is easier for us if people copy over their working live system. We've had problems in the past of the live system working but the installed system failing. The live system will often make changes tuned for your particular hardware. If these changes aren't carried over then the installed system may not boot or work properly. The idea is that since the live system booted, the safest default is to use the same settings the live system used for the installed system. Since we implemented this idea the number of reports of certain types of problems have plummeted.

When we make a snapshot, all of these changes made by the live system and copied over to the installed system are undone so a live-usb made from the iso you created from snapshot is in "pristine" condition as far as running live is concerned. Likewise, even if you use root persistence or remaster on a live-usb, we save machine specific changes separately for each machine you run on.

We support both snapshots and live-usb remasters. From a support perspective it makes little difference to us if changes were made before or after the install. You can go from a live system to an installed system back to a live system and so on, making changes all along the way. I don't know of any other distro that is designed to do this as well as we do it.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:26 am
by malspa
BitJam wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:47 pmWe've had problems in the past of the live system working but the installed system failing. The live system will often make changes tuned for your particular hardware. If these changes aren't carried over then the installed system may not boot or work properly. The idea is that since the live system booted, the safest default is to use the same settings the live system used for the installed system. Since we implemented this idea the number of reports of certain types of problems have plummeted.
Wow, that's surprising to me -- I thought this sort of problem must be quite rare.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:30 am
by asqwerth
dreamer wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:25 pm Dedoimedo is sensitive about the live session and that the live session should save changes made. I think this is an odd opinion. Most people "play" in live-mode before installing. Then when they install they expect the distro to be in mint (untouched) condition.

So if live changes are to be saved, there should be a dialog asking if you want those changes to carry over to the installation. From a support perspective it's important to know that people start with a fresh installation.
I think his main issue was that his network settings and password was not carried over to his installed MX18, when it did in his tests and reviews of earlier releases. I seem to recall him being impressed in an earlier review that his wifi connection carried over after install so he didn't need to set up his password again.

If so, then that is possibly a regression so needs to be checked out.

Similarly with his report about Clementine not being able to play his phone media, while VLC had no issues. I think what he's saying is that it was fine in an earlier release but now not working in MX18.

Top-menu plugin - could the main issue be that it's a gtk3 plugin and we are still on gtk2 XFCE panel? Did something change recently in the development of the plugin? The Forum thread he linked to has someone saying it doesn't work now, but it did in MX17. So again the concern is another possible regression, unless some update to the plugin itself is the problem.


Aesthetics which are XFCE-specific issues, we can't do too much about it. I wouldn't bother too much about it. Ditto the complaint about how Thunar works.


But issues that appear to be regressions from MX17 are of concern and should be checked on.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:24 am
by GerardV
Here's the thread viewtopic.php?t=46164

Criticism with a suggested solution.

Except it did not work on my MX18 install

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:31 am
by Redacted
asqwerth wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:30 am But issues that appear to be regressions from MX17 are of concern and should be checked on.
I've read his articles for years. What got me started with him, besides his being a member of a security forum that I was a member of long ago, was his ranting against regressions in Linux distros.
I don't know about these particular ones in MX, but if you look at the Linux world in general, he has a strong point.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:52 am
by dolphin_oracle
I've avoided this thread because I don't generally like to publicly comment on reviewer article content, but I'll respond to these 2 items from mx users.

asqwerth wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:30 am
I think his main issue was that his network settings and password was not carried over to his installed MX18, when it did in his tests and reviews of earlier releases. I seem to recall him being impressed in an earlier review that his wifi connection carried over after install so he didn't need to set up his password again.

If so, then that is possibly a regression so needs to be checked out.
Yes and no.

debian's implementation of network-manager defaults to only allowing the user that creates the network connection to connect to it later. since our live-USB uses the "demo" account and an installed system is not likely to have a "demo" account, the user isn't allowed to connect, by default. the connection settings themselves do copy over.

the solution is what ubuntu does...default to allowing "all users" to connect to a defined wifi connection. If you do this manually on a live system and then install, the installed system will connect upon reboot.

This is not actually a regression, its exactly the same since mx15.
dreamer wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:25 pm Dedoimedo is sensitive about the live session and that the live session should save changes made. I think this is an odd opinion. Most people "play" in live-mode before installing. Then when they install they expect the distro to be in mint (untouched) condition.

So if live changes are to be saved, there should be a dialog asking if you want those changes to carry over to the installation. From a support perspective it's important to know that people start with a fresh installation.
the user already has to specify that live home folder changes will be saved, its not automatic, and such I don't feel a dialog is necessary in that case. I'm glad he likes the option though.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:07 am
by asqwerth
dolphin_oracle wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:52 am I've avoided this thread because I don't generally like to publicly comment on reviewer article content, but I'll respond to these 2 items from mx users.

asqwerth wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:30 am
I think his main issue was that his network settings and password was not carried over to his installed MX18, when it did in his tests and reviews of earlier releases. I seem to recall him being impressed in an earlier review that his wifi connection carried over after install so he didn't need to set up his password again.

If so, then that is possibly a regression so needs to be checked out.
Yes and no.

debian's implementation of network-manager defaults to only allowing the user that creates the network connection to connect to it later. since our live-USB uses the "demo" account and an installed system is not likely to have a "demo" account, the user isn't allowed to connect, by default. the connection settings themselves do copy over.

the solution is what ubuntu does...default to allowing "all users" to connect to a defined wifi connection. If you do this manually on a live system and then install, the installed system will connect upon reboot.

This is not actually a regression, its exactly the same since mx15. ....
Hmm, re-reading his review and searching through his older reviews, I think he might be saying that when he saved the live session settings previously, the connection settings used to be copied over and now it doesn't, not that the installed system used to automatically connect to the saved network settings.

I'm not so sure though.

MX18 comments:
...However, in the installed desktop, my Wireless network wasn't preserved!
MX15 comments on same thing:
...my live session data was saved, including network config, even the failed Bluetooth games, all my screenshots and downloads, my panel configurations, everything.
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/mx-15.html

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:22 am
by manyroads
Hello all...
I have to say, I am most impressed with the analysis & introspection. :number1:

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:36 am
by hhkr
Pretty good review, I like it so much I put it up on 2 new machines. Still fiddling with things but I like it a lot.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:21 am
by paulfsams
(Tongue in cheek) Well, heck,
Like Dedoimedo, I don't like the sidebar, so I changed it to the top. For a long time I wanted my panels on the bottom, but, dang it, now I prefer them on top, my trifocals have caused me to make adjustments. It is true, the live image did not preserve my network settings, so it took me a few second to enter my password again. Clementine? I have no complaints about it, I don't use it. I prefer Audacious, which was was in the repository. But! I did have to install it myself, and I had to click and enter a password, my arthritic fingers did so. It's true, the plasma desktop looks nice, but, I like XFCE4 better. I'm older and set in my ways. I like drag and drop, it's easier for me. I also notice that the panel icons, and the folders in thunar are single click by default. Therefore I was denied the opportunity to go into the settings to set them for single clicking. I will say though, that since single click was what I like, but you took away something for me to complain about. I read Dedoimedo's reviews and have gotten used to his style. Just wait until he is 65 years old like I am. :number1: :happybday: :turtle:

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:41 am
by Jerry3904
I prefer Audacious, which was was in the repository. But! I did have to install it myself, and I had to click and enter a password, my arthritic fingers did so.
You should always check Package Installer first, where that app requires a single click on your part!

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:31 pm
by KBD
Redacted wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:31 am
I've read his articles for years. What got me started with him, besides his being a member of a security forum that I was a member of long ago, was his ranting against regressions in Linux distros.
I don't know about these particular ones in MX, but if you look at the Linux world in general, he has a strong point.
I agree in general with his complaints about regressions in Linux. It's why I've focused more and more on Debian and Debian-based distros. Ubuntu and Ubuntu-based distros seem continually filled with regression, some of which is constant kernel updates, and that is the one place I've seen regressions on my own hardware with MX. It seems too often in the Linux community distros and devs are too obsessed with the 'latest and greatest' instead of fixing bugs and focusing on stability--so I'm fully on board with that complaint. Thankfully MX has continually proved to be one of the most stable, only suffering from problems with newer kernels and Firefox's rapid updates without bug fixing which is not an MX issue.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:32 pm
by BitJam
dolphin_oracle wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:52 amdebian's implementation of network-manager defaults to only allowing the user that creates the network connection to connect to it later. since our live-USB uses the "demo" account and an installed system is not likely to have a "demo" account, the user isn't allowed to connect, by default. the connection settings themselves do copy over.

the solution is what ubuntu does...default to allowing "all users" to connect to a defined wifi connection. If you do this manually on a live system and then install, the installed system will connect upon reboot.
Q1: Would it be possible (and sensible) to make allowing "all users" to connect the default on the live-iso? Maybe root is allowed anyway because both demo and root need net access so this issue doesn't arise until an install.

Q2: If "no" to Q1, would it be possible or easy to change the Network Manager user from "demo" to the new account created by the user during install?

There is always a trade-off between security and convenience but this feature seems to add a lot of inconvenience for a modicum of security. But maybe there are failure modes I'm unaware of.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:00 pm
by paulfsams
Jerry3904 wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:41 am
I prefer Audacious, which was was in the repository. But! I did have to install it myself, and I had to click and enter a password, my arthritic fingers did so.
You should always check Package Installer first, where that app requires a single click on your part!
I have finally learned that! My first instinct is still synaptic, but, I'm working on that. Yes, the Package Installer is great.

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:43 am
by antiX-Dave
BitJam wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:32 pm
dolphin_oracle wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:52 amdebian's implementation of network-manager defaults to only allowing the user that creates the network connection to connect to it later. since our live-USB uses the "demo" account and an installed system is not likely to have a "demo" account, the user isn't allowed to connect, by default. the connection settings themselves do copy over.

the solution is what ubuntu does...default to allowing "all users" to connect to a defined wifi connection. If you do this manually on a live system and then install, the installed system will connect upon reboot.
Q1: Would it be possible (and sensible) to make allowing "all users" to connect the default on the live-iso? Maybe root is allowed anyway because both demo and root need net access so this issue doesn't arise until an install.

Q2: If "no" to Q1, would it be possible or easy to change the Network Manager user from "demo" to the new account created by the user during install?

There is always a trade-off between security and convenience but this feature seems to add a lot of inconvenience for a modicum of security. But maybe there are failure modes I'm unaware of.
I do recall this in the past and I think one of the policy files in /usr/ had to be altered for the default to be save for all users. Cannot recall the details but I am sure they would be in the forums somewhere

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:12 pm
by dreamer
BitJam wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:47 pm We do all of that and more: the Most Extensive Live-usb on the Planet!
Nice useful info, thanks. My plan is to free my software from being tied to specific hardware. I'm tired of maintaining multiple installations. Internal disk space can be used as storage space for files that aren't important.

If this works out I feel I'll be one step closer to the future :alien: ;)

What does this have to do with Dedoimedo? Not much. Dedoimedo expects a lot from the live session. If the live session isn't good enough, he might lose his mind. It has only happened once as far as I know. He was unhappy with Linux Mint 17.3 Rosa and reviewed it without even installing it. Network related problems are the worst, but he is a technical guy and sometimes he goes to great lengths to fix things.
If and when any distribution starts its live test session with so much as a tiniest network-related glitch, be it Samba, printing, a copy operation or anything or that sort, I will terminate the testing immediately and report back with the most scathing review and a perfect zero score.
My day is ruined now, thank you. Rosa, 0/10. Total fail. Next please.
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/lin ... -rosa.html

Re: Dedoimedo review of MX-18

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:13 pm
by dreamer
The difference between 0 and 10 is spelled "Xfce"!

Linux Mint 17.3 Rosa Cinnamon - score 0
Linux Mint 17.3 Rosa Xfce - score 10
No matter what I tried, Rosa Xfce handled it gracefully, with speed and elegance. This warrants a perfect score. It's been a while, but we're back in the game. 10/10. Rosa Xfce, YOUR next distro.
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/lin ... -xfce.html