MX Linux Forum

Danum nicely sent me a document with corrections and suggestions for Section 8.3 of the Manual, which Rich and I have now gone over, edited and merged with the section in the Manual that originally came from Joany. That merger involved a lot of decisions about content and format, but I believe the outcome is a significant improvement:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bdottjbzyta3a ... .html?dl=0

Please take a careful look at it as soon as you can (we have an important Manual upgrade already in the wings) and post here your reactions and suggestions. (Do all the click instructions work as written?)

TIA

Jerry

All links are working. Well written and very instructive. Maybe something could be added about how to find out if all recommended and suggested packages are installed?
Henry

Utopia wrote:All links are working. Well written and very instructive. Maybe something could be added about how to find out if all recommended and suggested packages are installed?
Henry

Do you mean a list of what packages are installed?

Now after a later read-through I am seeing a number of "infelicities" ... good thing we have this review time built in!

The menu editing was a good idea. I think having to install K3b might have a sentence. Everything looks pretty good. Another sentence on getting KDE Wallpapers might be good also.

I think there was a sentence about wallpapers that I forgot. K3b is a good thought.

Jerry3904 wrote:Now after a later read-through I am seeing a number of "infelicities" ... good thing we have this review time built in!

So can I, Thunar??, Links missing.

I will post an updated version later today as it 12.35am here.

We decided to remove the Thunar section, and just leave Dolphin. We concluded that Thunar didn't need to be mentioned in a n entry devoted to KDE.

Updates welcome--and will be edited of course (just a reminder...).

I think he is referring to the fact that thunar still appears in the caution about device notifier. Since Dolphin is the default file manager thunar is not in play.

richb wrote:I think he is referring to the fact that thunar still appears in the caution about device notifier. Since Dolphin is the default file manager thunar is not in play.

True, as for editing how many versions of KDE4 are in Wheezy (stable),

in both cases, the available installation candidate is KDE SC 4.8.5, originally released July 31, 2012. Note that this version is significantly older than the current stable and last release for Wheezy ( KDE SC 4.14.3), released on November 11, 2014. Various versions are available for installation through Synaptic or the MX Package Installer.

8.3.1 Installation
It is worth noting the the current KDE4 release in Debian Stable, KDE SC 4.8.5 was released on July 31, 2012.
While the current stable release from KDE, KDE SC 4.14.3 was released on November 11, 2014, and is the last release there will be for KDE4.
All future releases from KDE will be based on Qt5 and Frameworks 5.

kde-plasma-notebook N/A a minimalist plasma netbookinstall

with a link to a notebook?
kde-plasma-netbook, package. This is a minimalist plasma netbook install. You have to install all end-user applications later.
Which makes the Search & Launch Desktop available.
http://forum.mepiscommunity.org/viewtop ... 59&t=32582

The only version of KDE I know of in wheezy, (the default repos setup with MX14) is 4.8.5. Other versions can be installed with synaptic by enabling other repos, which is not covered in the install manual and I suggest should not be.

I missed that nicety when I reviewed it, and read it as synaptic could be used with the appropriate repos added.

<never mind>

Do you mean a list of what packages are installed?

No, I mean an instruction how to right-click packages in synaptic to get a list. It's very easy to install recommended and suggested packages that way.
Henry

Utopia wrote:

Do you mean a list of what packages are installed?

No, I mean an instruction how to right-click packages in synaptic to get a list. It's very easy to install recommended and suggested packages that way.
Henry

I guess I do not fully understand. That technique is not specific to KDE, and I am not sure how it would fit in with that section. Do you think we should list recommended KDE packages, like the K3b suggestion, or Gimp, etc.?

One important consideration for KDE installs is the default display manager, not for loading KDE from a fresh boot or restart, but for correctly rendering the login screen after logging out of an active desktop session when a basic driver is used for a graphics chip that needs a proprietary or specific driver to function properly.

Some chipset based nvidia and ati chips fail to render the kdm login screen after logging out of an active session and the user is left with a black screen with nothing but a cursor. The contents of the KDM login/greeter are still there, but they are not rendered. It is possible to find the entry fields by moving the cursor to where the user name and password fields should be, (the arrow changes when it passes over a text input field) type in a user name, press tab type in the password and hit return to login to KDE again, but it could be quite unnerving for some and they would think their system has crashed.

To avoid this, during the kde installation, I recommend the user choose lightdm instead of kdm when asked what default display manager (or greeter, can't remember exactly) should be used. When the correct graphics driver is loaded, this behaviour never happens and I have never seen it on an Intel graphics build.

Also, the blurb about 4.8.5 being older than the current stable 4.14.3 for wheezy is a bit confusing. Do we not have 4.8.4 and Jessie has 4.11.11?

I guess I do not fully understand

I meant that after installing KDE, people should check that they have all the packages needed. You get a very basic kde with limited capabilities unless you get recommended and suggested for your most used apps.
This was meant for newbies.
Henry

Utopia wrote:

I guess I do not fully understand

I meant that after installing KDE, people should check that they have all the packages needed. You get a very basic kde with limited capabilities unless you get recommended and suggested for your most used apps.
This was meant for newbies.
Henry

Understand. Perhaps more clarity should be added regarding the versions. KDE standard gives quite a full KDE version. I used the guide to install the standard version and have a "full" KDE install. Beyond that specific packages one may want, like Gimp are totally up to the user as is the case in most KDE distros.

KDE Lite is the basic version, but I assumed people who choose that have an understanding of what additional packages may need to be installed.

I would not be sure what specific KDE package in Synaptic would need to use the technique you suggest for recommends and suggested for the Lite version. Perhaps someone else does.

Do you think we should list recommended KDE packages

Difficult to write a list as the users have different needs. Only wanted a reminder in the manual, that if they can't do exactly what they want in KDE, they should look among the recommended and suggested packages.
Henry

Edited the how to to read, which will be posted later today,

The options for installing KDE4 using MX package Installer are
kde-standard package, A debian selection of common applications
kde-lite package, This is a minimalist plasma desktop install. You have to install all end-user applications later.(this is not recommended for newbies to KDE4)

The options for installing KDE4 using Synaptic are,
kde-full, package, The standard/upstream Debian release
kde-standard, package A debian selection of common applications
kde-plasma-desktop, package. This is a minimalist plasma desktop install. You have to install all end-user applications later.(this is not recommended for newbies to KDE4)
kde-plasma-netbook, package. This is a minimalist plasma netbook install. You have to install all end-user applications later.(this is not recommended for newbies To KDE4)
(kde-plasma-netbook also makes the Search & Launch Desktop available in a kde-standard and kde-plasma-desktop install)

@Danum. This is a better explanation of the options.

Danum wrote:Edited the how to to read, which will be posted later today,

The options for installing KDE4 using MX package Installer are
kde-standard package, A debian selection of common applications
kde-lite package, This is a minimalist plasma desktop install. You have to install all end-user applications later.(this is not recommended for newbies to KDE4)

The options for installing KDE4 using Synaptic are,
kde-full, package, The standard/upstream Debian release
kde-standard, package A debian selection of common applications
kde-plasma-desktop, package. This is a minimalist plasma desktop install. You have to install all end-user applications later.(this is not recommended for newbies to KDE4)
kde-plasma-netbook, package. This is a minimalist plasma netbook install. You have to install all end-user applications later.(this is not recommended for newbies To KDE4)
(kde-plasma-netbook also makes the Search & Launch Desktop available in a kde-standard and kde-plasma-desktop install)

That looks good, though I will probably retain my table format.

BTW to all: I will be editing tonight for the last time.

I would not be sure what specific KDE package in Synaptic would need to use the technique you suggest for recommends and suggested for the Lite version. Perhaps someone else does.

Gwenview is a case in point. kipi-plugins enable a host of manipulations that most would want. And they are not installed as dependencies.

lucky9 wrote:

I would not be sure what specific KDE package in Synaptic would need to use the technique you suggest for recommends and suggested for the Lite version. Perhaps someone else does.

Gwenview is a case in point. kipi-plugins enable a host of manipulations that most would want. And they are not installed as dependencies.

Yes and how many others and which ones? Hard to judge users want. If anything this would need to be done on a package like kdebase or one of the other base kde install candidates. I installed KDE standard via MX Tools. I looked at kde-full in Synaptic and many more apps would be installed most of which I am not all that sure users need. But I am not opposed to that procedure being added. But if so, it needs to be a very general statement, in my opinion.

This section can become a manual in itself if we are not careful. Not every customization that can be made is detailed. I can think of many other things people may want, like a root services menu. The goal is to have something that will result in a fully functioning KDE installation. And I believe this accomplishes that.

Per installing generally, a lot of people are completely new to Linux and a mere mention of dependencies, recommendations, suggestions might be in order. A lot of people appear to not even know there are such things as recommendations or suggestions and what they do. Not in the KDE section, but in the installing software section.

5.1.2 -- paragraph on dependencies
5.3.1 and Figure 66 -- recommendeds and suggesteds

richb wrote:

Utopia wrote:

I guess I do not fully understand

I meant that after installing KDE, people should check that they have all the packages needed. You get a very basic kde with limited capabilities unless you get recommended and suggested for your most used apps.
This was meant for newbies.
Henry

Understand. Perhaps more clarity should be added regarding the versions. KDE standard gives quite a full KDE version. I used the guide to install the standard version and have a "full" KDE install. Beyond that specific packages one may want, like Gimp are totally up to the user as is the case in most KDE distros.

KDE Lite is the basic version, but I assumed people who choose that have an understanding of what additional packages may need to be installed.

I would not be sure what specific KDE package in Synaptic would need to use the technique you suggest for recommends and suggested for the Lite version. Perhaps someone else does.

You do not enable recommends in Synaptic, you start editing,
/etc/ apt/apt.config.d/ Synaptic
which reads,
APT:: Install-Recomends "false"
and the main trouble with that is it will effect xfce4 installs as well. if you change false to true.

Right clicking a package in Synaptic, shows recommends and suggested. That is what I was referring to.

I have some reservations.

It is brilliant that people have posted their knowledge and experience of KDE4 and how it can be grafted onto MX. So kudos where it is due.

However, MX is designed as an Xfce distro. So, adding KDE to it and then making it the default should not really be considered a 'one-click' for noobs operation. Sure, we can make it as easy as possible, but I think we should also make it clear that user intervention and some knowledge is needed.

Couldn't see kdm mentioned. Wasn't there a difference between synaptic and the MX package installer? You couldn't get kdm through the MX package installer because you had to say yes, or is that fixed now?
Henry

Utopia wrote:Couldn't see kdm mentioned. Wasn't there a difference between synaptic and the MX package installer? You couldn't get kdm through the MX package installer because you had to say yes, or is that fixed now?
Henry

If you read m_pav's post: http://forum.mepiscommunity.org/viewtop ... 50#p360950, it sounds like you shouldn't install kdm anyway.

A conscious decision not to include kdm.

m_pav wrote: Also, the blurb about 4.8.5 being older than the current stable 4.14.3 for wheezy is a bit confusing. Do we not have 4.8.4 and Jessie has 4.11.11?

Yes, 4.8.4 for Wheezy, but Jessie has 4.11.3. They must have frozen KDE in Jessie quite early.

Jessie backports, has 4.14.2

OK...that sounds cool. Because of some past quality control issues in wheezy-backports, we were discussing not using jessie-backports, though we could enable it for a newer KDE in the package-installer. Some issues concerning systemd have yet to be determined, too. If we decide to go without it, some Jessie packages will still pull in systemd dependencies. They won't convert you to systemd, but the dependencies will just be cruft.

Edit: I can't find any bpo8.0 packages in the Debian pool. Are they hiding them until later?

Danum wrote:Jessie backports, has 4.14.2

?????

I don't see that there's anything in the jessie-backports repo yet: http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/dists/j ... nary-i386/

The Packages.bz2 and Packages.gz package files are just skeletons (14 and 20 bytes).

I have been using Jessie backports for a KDE4 install for over 2 months with no problems. the same with systemd in Jessie,
it should be interesting when plasma 5 gets into Debian, because that requires systemd by default.

kent, I did a basic KDE install from Jessie and Jessie backports what is installed is 4.14.2, those are the only Debian repos in the system.

Danum wrote:I have been using Jessie backports for a KDE4 install for over 2 months with no problems. the same with systemd in Jessie,
it should be interesting when plasma 5 gets into Debian, because that requires systemd by default.
kent, I did a basic KDE install from Jessie and Jessie backports what is installed is 4.14.2, those are the only repos in the system.

I do see 4:4.14.2-5 packages in the unstable/sid repo, but like I said before nothing is yet in the jessie-backports/main repo. Jessie hasn't been released yet, so that would make sense.

Also there's been no mention of a KDE4 backport at the debian backports and debian-backports-changes mailling lists,
https://lists.debian.org/debian-backports/recent
https://lists.debian.org/debian-backpor ... ges/recent
I check them several times a week and think I would've noticed it.

A search at debian.org for kde4 4.14.2-x for most kde4 packages in Jessie main. Example here:
https://packages.debian.org/jessie/libkdeui5

Anyway, none of this is going into the Manual. Could I suggest a separate thread...?

timkb4cq wrote:A search at debian.org for kde4 4.14.2-x for most kde4 packages in Jessie main. Example here:
https://packages.debian.org/jessie/libkdeui5

So 4:4.14.2-x is the version that Jessie's being released with, so there's no reason to have it in jessie-backports (and it isn't).

Fwiw I stopped paying attention to KDE4/5 update activity in Debian around the time MX14 started development.

I second Jerry's comment. This thread is for the manual. The discussion of the last few posts should be in its own thread.