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MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:03 pm
by newkansan
A few comments that will hopefully be helpful to future revisions of MX:
-It's not clear to me what the difference is between installing a package from the MX Package Installer and installing it from Synaptic. I thought that maybe it was pulling from custom repos not available through Synaptic or was pulling extra packages in that aren't dependencies. I've tried installing Gnucash and Firefox and it seems that I could have installed these identically from Synaptic. I think my confusion is at least partially due to the wording "Install additional metapackages"
-After installing from MX Package Installer, when I re-enter the app, I expect the packages I installed to be checked (indicating they are already installed), but they are not. I think from a new user perspective, they might try to reinstall something that is already installed.
-maybe an additional line or two of description in the MX Installer window would help?

Thanks for listening. Great distro!

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:59 pm
by kmathern
newkansan wrote:...It's not clear to me what the difference is between installing a package from the MX Package Installer and installing it from Synaptic. I thought that maybe it was pulling from custom repos not available through Synaptic or was pulling extra packages in that aren't dependencies. I've tried installing Gnucash and Firefox and it seems that I could have installed these identically from Synaptic. ...
The main function of the MX Package Installer is to make it easier to install some of the more popular packages, but they could also be installed using Synaptic or from the command line using apt-get|aptitude|dpkg.

For the most part the MX Package Installer installs packages from the same repos that Synaptic uses. In some cases it might temporarily enable a repo if it's not currently enabled, to install a package. Examples of this would be the Firefox and Thunderbird packages where the MX Package Installer will temporarily enable the Mepis 12 CR testrepo (deb http://main.mepis-deb.org/mepiscr/testrepo/ mepis12cr test) if it's not currently enabled.

newkansan wrote:...After installing from MX Package Installer, when I re-enter the app, I expect the packages I installed to be checked (indicating they are already installed), but they are not. I think from a new user perspective, they might try to reinstall something that is already installed. ...
I'm not sure about having the currently installed packages "checked" when starting MX Package Installer, but do agree it would be nice to have some type of indication that a package is currently installed {maybe have a asterisk, or add another column to the show the current install status}

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:47 pm
by newkansan
The main function of the MX Package Installer is to make it easier to install some of the more popular packages, but they could also be installed using Synaptic or from the command line using apt-get|aptitude|dpkg.
Makes sense. Sort of a "Greatest Hits" software center that reduces some of the geek-factor from Synaptic. I do like the concept, but think its function could be more easily discoverable. I know it was just renamed from "metapackage-installer" to "MX Package Installer" but further refinement might be in order. Perhaps simply "Software Installer" or "Application Installer" with a description in the UI window (where it currently says "Install additional metapackages") to the effect of "We've placed installers for some of the most popular applications here. They could also be installed through Synaptic or the command-line. In some cases (like the Netflix metapackage), the installer here simplifies what would otherwise be a much more complicated process."
I'm not sure about having the currently installed packages "checked" when starting MX Package Installer, but do agree it would be nice to have some type of indication that a package is currently installed {maybe have a asterisk, or add another column to the show the current install status}
Yes, exactly. Along the same lines, might it make sense to either build an "uninstaller" or at least make it easy for the user to know what packages are in each "metapackage" so they could do a complete uninstall through Synaptic?

Thanks for your feedback!

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:40 pm
by lucky9
I thought the whole idea of the MX/Meta Package Installer is to make it easier to install popular items. If you want to know if it's installed open Synaptic and use it's 'Installed Packages' and then it's Search function. (After all there's not many choices in the MX/Meta Package Installer. You really should know what you have done there.)

At any rate the use of Synaptic to find out if you installed something is pretty straightforward. There is a lot of information in the wiki on Synaptic. Enter Synaptic in the wiki search box to see what's available.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:54 pm
by Stevo
Hey, don't be picking on my little Netflix projects! :p

That's a bad example--in M11, M12, and MX, it should just be a case of installing "netflix-desktop" and watching the gears spin. Add pipelight for some additional functionality, and enable the test repo to get the latest version.

The Pipelight folks do maintain a PPA that they claim is compatible with Debian. They provide a separate wine-compholio, though. For some reason, the folks at playonlinux don't provide a Wine patched to work with Netflix and Netflix-desktop, though you would think a cross-distro solution like that's would be a good answer.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:13 pm
by Adrian
It's a long history, initially the meta-install package was meant for installing meta-packages (a collection of packages, for example "graphics" would install all the important picture editors, but it also had the option to install packages one by one). Sometime in the MX-14 development cycle it was decided to add all the "best of bread" packages in it and become less of a meta installer because if you selected for example Desktop Environment would install all the desktop environments in the list: KDE, XFCE, Gnome, etc which obviously is not a good idea, so it became more of a custom installer -- it also installs some packages that are not handle well by Synaptic, for example it adds the needed sources for Firefox, installs Firefox and then remove the extra sources.

At some point it was discovered that we don't have the source code although the code was open sourced, so as a challenge I decided to re-write it as a Qt application (originally it was coded in PyGTK, since I didn't have the code I didn't even know that, I assumed it was PyQt), so the program changed from meta-installer to MX Package Installer -- it's no longer used to install meta packages and it's actually another application written from scratch in a different language, I also tried to make the output nicer by not loading it in a regular terminal but displaying the output directly in the program, that reduced a bit the flexibility of the program.

Your point about displaying what programs are installed is a good one, it's however a bit of a problem to code, it would make the program slower to launch and slower to refresh - it will need to parse all the custom bm files that contain the info about the packages, extract the name of the packages for each item (it's not a one-to-one relationship, some programs need more packages installed) and then run the dpkg commands to see if the packages are installed, and then mark the items in the menu as installed... also, keep in mind that is not supposed to replace Synaptic, it was originally meant to help people get packages that were not easy to install with Synaptic, so I expect people to use Synaptic most of the times and then start the MX Package Installer only to install some one off like Firefox, Opera, or Netflix app, therefore for me it's more important that the program launches and works fast than to display all the information available like Synaptic does.

In any case, if somebody knows Qt and has free time on their hands they are free to contribute, we have the source code here: https://github.com/AdrianTM/mx-packageinstaller

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:17 pm
by newkansan
Appreciate all the feedback. It was confusing for me (I'm by no means a linux guru, but I am a veteran linux desktop user of 7 years) until I did some research on my own, and even then, I had doubts until this thread cleared things up. Maybe I'm just overthinking it. :p I'm very used to Synaptic and command-line installs, and I just assumed the MX Package Installer was for custom packages I could not get any other way. Then I searched Synaptic for some of the apps offered in the MX Package Installer and saw them there too, which led to this thread being opened. No offense meant to all those who put their hard work into this.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:22 pm
by Jerry3904
No offense taken. We very much appreciate thoughtful feedback, especially where--as Adrian pointed out--the program has changed quite a bit since we first started using it. Your comments will go on the Dev list as we move forward, so thanks.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:24 pm
by newkansan
lucky9 wrote:I thought the whole idea of the MX/Meta Package Installer is to make it easier to install popular items. If you want to know if it's installed open Synaptic and use it's 'Installed Packages' and then it's Search function. (After all there's not many choices in the MX/Meta Package Installer. You really should know what you have done there.)

At any rate the use of Synaptic to find out if you installed something is pretty straightforward. There is a lot of information in the wiki on Synaptic. Enter Synaptic in the wiki search box to see what's available.
The point I was trying to make was that I thought "metapackage" meant it was installing a group of packages. For example, maybe it was pulling optional packages that normally wouldn't get installed if you installed the same package through Synaptic. If you then uninstalled the main package through Synaptic, it might then leave the optional packages on the system. Some users would consider orphaned packages "bloat". Apparently that is not happening, though. My misunderstanding...

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:43 pm
by gmagar
I have a prime example of differences between Synaptic and MX Installer.

I installed 'Pipelight' from Synaptic on 3 different installations of MX and none of them worked. They all gave me an 'error' in Silverlight in the Add-Ons Tab in Firefox/IceWeasel.

I installed Pipelight on another MX installation using the instructions on the FDS Team WebPage http://pipelight.net/cms/install/instal ... ebian.html and all worked perfectly. The difference was that this method pulled in the 'wine-compholio' package from synaptic as a dependency.

I installed Pipelight on yet another MX installation using the MX Package Installer and it worked. The difference was that it pulled in the 'wine-gecko' package from synaptic as a dependency. in lieu of the 'wine-compholio' package.

So, the MX Package Installer does indeed pull in useful, and perhaps necessary, dependencies for some applications that Synaptic does not. In my case, it has made Pipelight installation a breeze. And we use Pipelight alot in my household so this is significant.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:11 pm
by lucky9
MX Package Installer=an Installer that enables easy installation of some popular packages some of which are difficult or more involved than normal packages (it's not customizable and allows no fine-grained control)

Synaptic=a complete Package Management tool with the usual fine-grained control that such tools are supposed to come with (it's also customizable to a great degree)

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:19 am
by jdmeaux1952
MX Package Installer = Developers Choice Programs :happy:

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:58 am
by Adrian
The code is almost finished, I am not sure what to do with the packages that are already installed:
1. not show them at all?
2. showed them grayed out?
3. show them with a different color (green for example)?

Any opinions?

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:45 am
by asqwerth
I think the installed programs should be displayed greyed out.

Different-coloured text might not be helpful for the colour blind.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:40 am
by Utopia
Colors can be misunderstood. Green looks like something that can be installed, but not in all parts of the world.
If the installed packages are invisible, there will be no questions like: "I want to install, but it's grayed out?".
Henry

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:05 am
by richb
Utopia wrote:Colors can be misunderstood. Green looks like something that can be installed, but not in all parts of the world.
If the installed packages are invisible, there will be no questions like: "I want to install, but it's grayed out?".
Henry
Don't you think users will remember what they installed if reminded with grayed out in the listing? I would say grey them out.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:13 am
by Utopia
Don't you think users will remember what they installed if reminded with grayed out in the listing?
Maybe, but if there is more than one user who wants to install things?
We remember now, will we do it three years from now?
Henry

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:29 am
by richb
Another point is that greyed out items in menus and sub-menus are universally known as unavailable choices.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:36 am
by Utopia
Yes, but it doesn't say why they are unavailable.
Both alternatives that don't include color are fine with me.
Henry

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:42 am
by richb
Utopia wrote:Yes, but it doesn't say why they are unavailable.
Both alternatives that don't include color are fine with me.
Henry
It never does when graying is used. It is a convention. I will stop as all the points I can make have been made. The decision lies elsewhere.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:01 am
by Jerry3904
PM says: 1) grey them out, 2) add sentence on top: "Items greyed out have already been installed"

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:51 am
by Adrian
Here's the last build please give it a try and let me know if you like the changes: https://github.com/AdrianTM/mx-packagei ... 1_i386.deb

A bit different issue, I've noticed that Opera doesn't install, I tried even from command line and I get this:

Code: Select all

Untrusted packages could compromise your system's security.
You should only proceed with the installation if you are certain that
this is what you want to do.

  opera 

Do you want to ignore this warning and proceed anyway?
Although I added opera security key... mx-packageinstaller also runs "wget -O - http://deb.opera.com/archive.key | apt-key add -"

Any ideas, suggestions?

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:28 am
by kmathern
Adrian wrote:Here's the last build please give it a try and let me know if you like the changes: https://github.com/AdrianTM/mx-packagei ... 1_i386.deb

A bit different issue, I've noticed that Opera doesn't install, I tried even from command line and I get this:

Code: Select all

Untrusted packages could compromise your system's security.
You should only proceed with the installation if you are certain that
this is what you want to do.

  opera 

Do you want to ignore this warning and proceed anyway?
Although I added opera security key... mx-packageinstaller also runs "wget -O - http://deb.opera.com/archive.key | apt-key add -"

Any ideas, suggestions?
If you go here: http://deb.opera.com/ they say there are two different keys, a "2013" key and a "2013b" key. The wget command grabs the "2013" key.

There was also this:
For now, the "2013" key above is the one we use, but we may be switching to this one soon: ....
I'm guessing they've switched.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:30 am
by newkansan
Thanks, I agree on greying out and adding text to the top stating that greyed out items are already installed.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:31 am
by Adrian
How can we use wget to get that one?

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:57 am
by kmathern
This seems to work:

Code: Select all

wget -qO- http://deb.opera.com/ | tac | grep BEGIN -B999 -m1 | tac | grep END -B999 | apt-key add -
root@mx1:/home/kent# wget -qO- http://deb.opera.com/ | tac | grep BEGIN -B999 -m1 | tac | grep END -B999 | apt-key add -
OK
It adds some Opera keys, the first 3 are expired but the last one is good until July 3rd 2015
root@mx1:/home/kent# apt-key list|grep -i opera -A2 -B2

pub 1024D/6A423791 2006-09-26 [expired: 2009-09-25]
uid Opera Software Archive Automatic Signing Key <hostmaster@opera.com>

pub 1024D/927CCC73 2007-06-04
--

pub 1024D/9D1A0061 2009-08-31 [expired: 2011-01-23]
uid Opera Software Archive Automatic Signing Key 2010 <packager@opera.com>

pub 1024D/B9FBE3CE 2011-01-22
--

pub 1024D/336064B5 2011-11-08 [expired: 2013-01-11]
uid Opera Software Archive Automatic Signing Key 2012 <packager@opera.com>

pub 1024D/09F8ECEF 2009-12-11
--

pub 4096R/A8492E35 2013-07-03 [expires: 2015-07-03]
uid Opera Software Archive Automatic Signing Key 2013b <packager@opera.com>
sub 4096R/08B288D5 2013-07-03 [expires: 2015-07-03]


root@mx1:/home/kent#
If they make changes to the html code at the http://deb.opera.com page, you might need to change the wget command again.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:33 am
by Adrian
I'm a bit uncomfortable to scrub the page like that, it can change at any moment.

In any case here's the updated package:
https://github.com/AdrianTM/mx-packagei ... 2_i386.deb

Please test it.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:51 am
by kmathern
Opera installs without any errors.

To test the Opera key download, I first ran the `apt-key del opera` command to remove all opera keys (kept repeating it until it gave a gpg: key "opera" not found: eof message)


And I like greyed out entries that indicate that the package is already installed.

Re: MX Package Installer vs Synaptic

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:59 am
by lucky9
Ditto for grey for the installed items.