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Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:25 pm
by Arnox
It has been posted in the MX News blog post for October 26th that "Change logs indicate that Debian will not be building 32 bit x86 kernels in Debian 13 and onward."
Doing a quick search on this, this does not appear to be correct, or at least, conflicts with the official Debian 13 documentation. (
https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/ ... s-now-i686) Instead, the official documentation basically states that the CPU instruction requirements for 32-bit Debian 13 will rise to the i686 level instead of the i586 level it was at before.
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:32 pm
by timkb4cq
There's no conflict with the docs you link. Debian will have 32bit packages built for i686+ processors, but those docs don't mention kernels.
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:38 pm
by Stevo
Also, Debian has stopped building kernels for 32bit x86 upstream, starting with 6.11 kernels. It's already happening.
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:44 pm
by Arnox
timkb4cq wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:32 pm
There's no conflict with the docs you link. Debian will have 32bit packages built for i686+ processors, but those docs don't mention kernels.
This just cannot be... It seems like a massive move made out of nowhere and a nonsensical one at that. Checking the news at debian.org/News/ doesn't seem to mention it either. Why would they still build 32-bit packages but not a 32-bit kernel? It's still listed as a supported architecture as well in said Debian 13 documentation. And if they were going to start dropping CPU support lines, why would they do it for x86 instead of, say, little-endian MIPS? Either the information in the changelog must be mistaken/miscommunicated, or a big mistake by the Debian maintainers is in the process of getting made.
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 2:39 am
by LinuxSpring1
With the issues that Intel is facing and the alleged offer by Qualcomm to Intel we might see the end of x86_64 and x86_32 lineup itself. As it is Intel chips cannot compete with ARM based chips either on efficiency or in power draw.
About the move to remove legacy support from Debian 13 that has been in works for a long time.
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 12:51 pm
by DeepDayze
LinuxSpring1 wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 2:39 am
With the issues that Intel is facing and the alleged offer by Qualcomm to Intel we might see the end of x86_64 and x86_32 lineup itself. As it is Intel chips cannot compete with ARM based chips either on efficiency or in power draw.
About the move to remove legacy support from Debian 13 that has been in works for a long time.
It should be soon that ARM laptops/desktop and even servers start becoming more mainstream and that's only if there's a common ARM chip/chipset design rather than having so many different flavors of ARM chips. It may well be Qualcomm becoming the Intel of the ARM world if it settles on and then offers a standard ARM CPU architecture. It is hoped that ARM can become a low cost and powerful successor to x86 chips.
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 12:58 pm
by Stevo
We have some concepts of a plan about using a 32-bit antiX kernel for MX 25, but it's still under discussion, and may not materialize.
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 2:31 pm
by AVLinux
Stevo wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 12:58 pm
We have some concepts of a plan about using a 32-bit antiX kernel for MX 25, but it's still under discussion, and may not materialize.
Even if that were not the case nobody said that Kernel source will no longer compile on 32bit systems so as long as there will be 32bit legacy Packaging then if any organization is interested in maintaining a 32bit Distro (although "why?" is becoming a more dominant question) it will fall upon the Distro Maintainers to build their own kernels. Debian not doing it isn't the end of the road at all..
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 2:47 pm
by timkb4cq
The current trixie kernel is 6.11.4. If you look through all the architectures debian has built it for at this link you'll see i386 is missing.
https://packages.debian.org/search?keyw ... age-6.11.4
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 5:04 pm
by Melber
Stevo wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 12:58 pm
We have some concepts of a plan...
I see what you did there
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 8:37 pm
by siamhie
Stevo wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:38 pm
Also, Debian has stopped building kernels for 32bit x86 upstream, starting with 6.11 kernels. It's already happening.
Yup. They stopped signing them in 6.6.7-1~exp1 and stopped building them in 6.11-1~exp1.
linux (6.6.7-1~exp1) experimental; urgency=medium
* New upstream stable update:
https://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel ... eLog-6.6.5
[ Bastian Blank ]
* [i386] No longer sign kernels.
* Properly merge Build-Depends, so that we don't carry hundred identical
entries.
* [udeb] Fix nic-shared-modules dependencies.
* Add dependency on image to headers package.
linux (6.11-1~exp1) experimental; urgency=medium
* New upstream release:
https://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_6.11
[ Ben Hutchings ]
* [x86] ACPI: Enable ACPI_EC_DEBUGFS as module (Closes: #980555)
* [i386] Stop building kernel packages
* rtla: Switch to out-of-tree build:
- Revert "tools/rtla: Restore option to set VERSION var to VERSION file's
contents"
- Fix installation from out-of-tree build
* rtla: Enable verbose build
* rtla: Build with dpkg's recommended compiler flags (regression in 6.9)
* rtla: Fix missing debug symbols
* rtla: Disable LTO
* rtla: Set LD correctly for cross-build
* objtool: Build with dpkg's recommended compiler flags (regression in
6.5.1-1¬exp1):
- Revert "tools build: Clean CFLAGS and LDFLAGS for fixdep"
- Update "fixdep: Allow overriding HOSTCC and HOSTLD" to clear the
buildflags when overriding
- d/rules.d/t/objtool: Put buildflags in the correct variables when
recursing
- d/rules: Delete blhc ignore regexp for objtool
https://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/ ... _changelog
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 8:42 pm
by topcat
Melber wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 5:04 pm
Stevo wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 12:58 pm
We have some concepts of a plan...
I see what you did there
In 2 weeks!
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 8:44 pm
by topcat
Melber wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 5:04 pm
Stevo wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 12:58 pm
We have some concepts of a plan...
I see what you did there
In 2 weeks!
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 9:58 pm
by Arnox
LinuxSpring1 wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 2:39 am
With the issues that Intel is facing and the alleged offer by Qualcomm to Intel we might see the end of x86_64 and x86_32 lineup itself. As it is Intel chips cannot compete with ARM based chips either on efficiency or in power draw.
Intel/x86 is far from out of the game, though ARM is definitely starting to invade their territory for sure. I suspect we'll get at least 5 more years of x86-64 dominance and maybe even longer after that depending on if Intel/AMD can innovate enough to keep up with ARM. In any case, it's not a sure thing.
LinuxSpring1 wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 2:39 am
About the move to remove legacy support from Debian 13 that has been in works for a long time.
Kinda, yeah. But they never gave a firm end-date for it to my knowledge. You'd expect them to give a much more locked-in deadline for this first before they actually did it.
Stevo wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 12:58 pm
We have some concepts of a plan about using a 32-bit antiX kernel for MX 25, but it's still under discussion, and may not materialize.
Doing some further investigation, I think what Debian is looking to do is continue offering and supporting the 6.10.x kernels with security updates for Debian 13 to fill the x86 hole, but nothing further than that. Don't know if that changes what you guys are planning.
This seems more reasonable, but at the same time... Why? Why not just ship the damn 6.11 kernels with x86 support and announce a firm cut-off date for later on? Now they have an extra kernel version they need to keep track of.
AVLinux wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 2:31 pm
Even if that were not the case nobody said that Kernel source will no longer compile on 32bit systems so as long as there will be 32bit legacy Packaging then if any organization is interested in maintaining a 32bit Distro (although "why?" is becoming a more dominant question) it will fall upon the Distro Maintainers to build their own kernels. Debian not doing it isn't the end of the road at all..
Of course it's not the end of the world, but it also puts unnecessary work and responsibility on the distro maintainers. The MX/AntiX team in particular already has a crapload of stuff to maintain. They don't need the hassle of compiling more kernels because the Debian team suddenly, without any warning, decided they can't be arsed to do it.
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 10:59 pm
by DukeComposed
topcat wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2024 8:42 pm
In 2 weeks!
"Get ready for a surprise."
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:25 am
by Eadwine Rose
Guys, no politics, also no hinting toward it, thanks.
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:13 am
by dolphin_oracle
debian announced this in the debian mailing list a year ago this December and it made the usual news sources. Here's the register's link.
https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/19/ ... op_x86_32/
debian will likely use the next LTS kernel for debian 13. this should drop before the end of the year, that's when they usually appear. could be 6.11, but might be 6.12. either way, I don't forsee a 32 bit kernel nor a 32 bit debian installer iso/app, at least in the x86 category. might still keep a 32bit arm I guess.
as for "firm" cutoff dates....debian rarely uses cutoff dates until they get into freeze cycle, and even then take them with a grain of salt.
antiX doesn't use debian kernels, so it doesn't change much for antiX. We have a decision to make, and we haven't made it yet, and likely won't until after debian feature freeze.
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:37 am
by AK-47
We will probably not know for sure until closer to the time. I'm not a big fan of trusting some tech journos that sensationalise everything as if the apocalypse is about to occur as a result of a Linux developer farting in Antarctica, don't cite any definitive source (eg. mailing list announcement) and just speculate on what may happen.
I do still have a 32-bit laptop, so not having MX on it may be a drag, but I'll survive. The installer will still have to support 32-bit anyway because antiX supports it, but there isn't much additional overhead for supporting 32-bit in the installer so why not.
Re: Regarding 32-Bit (x86) Support for Debian 13
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 10:35 am
by AVLinux
Also...
Isn't the reason antiX maintains their own 32bit Kernels is because a growing number of older 32bit computers don't work well with newer kernels anyway, I mean the hardware has already been supported for over a decade (maybe two!), aside from the security patches (which are designed to apply to older Kernels as well) what do 6.X+ Kernels really have of any benefit to legacy 32bit computers?
I suppose external peripheral hardware support would be one thing but if the main computer doesn't work well with a latest kernel I suppose that is a moot point..