MX Linux Forum

I tried a daily build of Xubuntu 19.04 in live mode (made with Unetbootin from test repo) because I wanted to check the state of Xfce. It may not be the absolute newest Xfce components, but it's mostly GTK3.

Except for a few layout glitches in Settings Manager that cut off text (if you use a large font), I didn't find anything to complain about during an hour in the live session. Xfce GTK3 is both familiar and "bug free" as far as I can tell. So well done to the Xfce devs. My gut feeling tells me there might be a Xfce 4.14 release in August (this year )...

Xubuntu (in live session) was also working better than expected. Fully functional desktop, no crashes and Internet connection. Maybe there is life after systemd after all. It's pretty vanilla so I don't see a reason to install it. But I'm glad to see a stable (one hour) Ubuntu based distro, because last time I felt Ubuntu and stable could be used in the same sentence was in 2014...

The Snap backdoor (snapd) can be uninstalled, but not the various libsnap packages because they bring pulseaudio with them which most people probably need/want. Good to see they don't push Snaps down the throat of people because having snapd running is a backdoor just like Windows Update in Windows.

RAM usage was high (700+) but CPU was low. Systemd could have made slightly more sense to me if they included one of those fancy systemd management GUIs that have been developed. Unfortunately it seems that those GUIs are mostly abandoned. Probably because systemd has changed so much over the years that keeping a GUI application up to date becomes too much work.

@dreamer, I think you might find the arch gtk3 variant of xfce to be fairly bleeding edge. I like the manjaro flavor.

I bet those two don't use 700 MB to start with, either.

Thanks for posting the review.

the various libsnap packages because they bring pulseaudio with them which

Similarly, the AppImage construct necessarily makes "baseline" assumptions
(list of packages presumed to be present on "any linux", list of dontchadare replace with alternate, packaged, versions)
so I can't fault snapcraft (or whatever it's currently called) for paving an ensured consistent set of baseline packages.
snapd is a "Backdoor"? Wow, I really hadn't considered it in that light, but I understand your point.

RAM usage was high

High because every imaginable service is configured to autostart, toward ensuring a "just works, without fiddling" User Experience?

fancy systemd management GUIs [..] are mostly abandoned. Probably because

...or (and I do NOT know this to be factual)
they exist, but have not been and will not be opensourced
~~ available, as installable binaries, to current RedHatEnterpriseLinux subscribers
(license and timekey -bound, designed to be usable only on currently licensed systems)

because systemd has changed so much over the years that keeping
a GUI application up to date becomes too much work.

Bingo! That identical tactic can be observed across GTK3.x breakages, and in the policykit... wait, policykit-1 revision 1.point.now (and your pre-existing stuff is now broken, er "deprecated")... wait, polkit (and and your pre-existing stuff is now broken) nonsense.

manyroads wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:26 pm @dreamer, I think you might find the arch gtk3 variant of xfce to be fairly bleeding edge. I like the manjaro flavor.

What are your impressions of Xfce GTK3? I don't think it's going to be disruptive at all. I really like the Xfce mentality. Add a feature here and there. Port to newer tech if necessary, but keep it simple. Release when ready...

I don't like rolling distros (except PCLOS which is conservative). I just wanted to take a look at Xfce GTK3 and I like what I see.
I also wanted to try the Ubuntu base, because Ubuntu was my first distro so I wanted to see what it's like today.

dreamer wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:46 pm

manyroads wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:26 pm @dreamer, I think you might find the arch gtk3 variant of xfce to be fairly bleeding edge. I like the manjaro flavor.

What are your impressions of Xfce GTK3? I don't think it's going to be disruptive at all. I really like the Xfce mentality. Add a feature here and there. Port to newer tech if necessary, but keep it simple. Release when ready...

I don't like rolling distros (except PCLOS which is conservative). I just wanted to take a look at Xfce GTK3 and I like what I see.
I also wanted to try the Ubuntu base, because Ubuntu was my first distro so I wanted to see what it's like today.

To be honest there are very few 'noticeable' differences between my experience(s) in the bleeding edge gtk3 and current MX gtk2 versions (with Test repo enhancements from @stevo). I am happy letting the gurus here drive the car.

skidoo wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:39 pm High because every imaginable service is configured to autostart, toward ensuring a "just works, without fiddling" User Experience?

Yes, but MX Linux is also configured with every service running and it's 300 MB less.

...or (and I do NOT know this to be factual)
they exist, but have not been and will not be opensourced
~~ available, as installable binaries, to current RedHatEnterpriseLinux subscribers
(license and timekey -bound, designed to be usable only on currently licensed systems)

There are (abandoned) fully open sourced systemd management apps made by unpaid devs. Even KDE made a couple of those. I don't know if any of those are still fully functional. One example:

http://mmstick.github.io/systemd-manager/

Bingo! That identical tactic can be observed across GTK3.x breakages, and in the policykit... wait, policykit-1 revision 1.point.now (and your pre-existing stuff is now broken, er "deprecated")... wait, polkit (and and your pre-existing stuff is now broken) nonsense.

I know what you are talking about. This (tactic) is the saddest thing that has happened to Linux. It's like Red Hat (IBM) and Microsoft are friends...

I am a person who has along 'breakage history'. I am able to do more here (on MX) with fewer crashes than ever before. It TRULY works (I am okay that I have to do some of the 'just' part of "just works") :lipsrsealed: I'm guessing that in my dottage I should, and am, most appreciative. My grandsons like that opa (me) has more time for them, too!

skidoo wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:39 pm

fancy systemd management GUIs [..] are mostly abandoned. Probably because

...or (and I do NOT know this to be factual)
they exist, but have not been and will not be opensourced
~~ available, as installable binaries, to current RedHatEnterpriseLinux subscribers
(license and timekey -bound, designed to be usable only on currently licensed systems)

Wouldn't that be in violation of systemd's GPL(2) licence?

Anyway, I think Debian have the gtk3 version of XFCE in the experimental repositories.

dreamer wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:00 pm RAM usage was high (700+)

That looks way too high.

I just checked the 3 Xubuntu live USB sticks I have. I booted them and without touching anyting else I immediately opened a terminal and did uname -a to figure out which was which and free -h.
18.04.2 LTS = 391 M
18.10 = 424 M
19.04 beta = 432 M

BV206 wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

dreamer wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:00 pm RAM usage was high (700+)

That looks way too high.

I just checked the 3 Xubuntu live USB sticks I have. I booted them and without touching anyting else I immediately opened a terminal and did uname -a to figure out which was which and free -h.
18.04.2 LTS = 391 M
18.10 = 424 M
19.04 beta = 432 M

Thanks, those are better numbers. I must have had something running in the background (daily build April 5). This is great because then Xfce 4.13 isn't a memory hog.

For comparison my Xubuntu 18.10 USB was 424 M.
My Xubuntu 18.10 installed to SSD with all the unnecessary services disabled is 319 M.
My MX 18.1 persistent USB with all the unnecessary services disabled is 293 M.

BV206 wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:56 pm For comparison my Xubuntu 18.10 USB was 424 M.
My Xubuntu 18.10 installed to SSD with all the unnecessary services disabled is 319 M.
My MX 18.1 persistent USB with all the unnecessary services disabled is 293 M.

Good numbers!

One thing I might add is that systemd can be slower to release memory so it's possible it held onto memory. That's one thing that differs from SysV. Systemd feels more like an engine like svchost.exe in Windows. It's constantly "active" in a way that reminds me more of Windows than Linux. Maybe systemd doesn't release memory if it doesn't have to? Maybe it speeds up the system by holding more stuff in memory?

I want systemd to work well, but I don't think I'll ever like it. I like certain things in Windows, but svchost.exe isn't one of them. What I like about a SysV system is how calm it feels. Calm, but responsive. That's all I need.

euclid5.iso
debian+mx packages

ram usage only 100 MB

bled wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:17 am euclid5.iso
debian+mx packages

ram usage only 100 MB

This is the second time you've shilled for Puppy Linux here. Please stop it.

BV206 wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

dreamer wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:00 pm RAM usage was high (700+)

That looks way too high.

I just checked the 3 Xubuntu live USB sticks I have. I booted them and without touching anyting else I immediately opened a terminal and did uname -a to figure out which was which and free -h.
18.04.2 LTS = 391 M
18.10 = 424 M
19.04 beta = 432 M

I have Xubuntu 18.04 installed on my second machine and it uses 370 M on the boot, I'm using Plank dock and it uses around 30-40 M.

Wouldn't that be in violation of systemd's GPL(2) licence?

The additional management tools could be designed such that they avoided "sharing code" with systemd components, and just provided a frontend for interacting with the configuration files of systemd components (along with sysfs files). Arguably, the "aggregate" need not be fully opensource.