MX Devs: Do you think the Linux ecosystem is getting worse?

[Arnox]

Perhaps the biggest worrying thing I'm seeing in Linux lately is the consolidation of numerous open-source software solutions. The most famous of these right now is probably the consolidation of the Linux init systems and window managers. Everything is going over to systemd. Everything is going over to Wayland... Another issue as well is the possible corporate take-over of important open-source software solutions.

Now, I have heard an interesting take in the past that this consolidation might actually be a good thing as it helps to eliminate redundant work and unify Linux as a whole (something that has been needed for a while), but regardless, I'm uneasy, personally.

[m_pav]

Hey the whole world is going crazy atm and this max exodus of hands-on coding in favour of AI is not going to assist us in the way we thought it would. Linux Torvolds has already voiced some harsh words towards those who have submitted AI generated code, telling them in no uncertain terms to never submit that <hello!> again.

The issues you bring up are nothing more than the see-saw cycle of change. Early on, the software needed better hardware, then the pendulum swung and the hardware needed more capable software as moores law was being observed in action. This too-ing and fro-ing is a continual cycle inherit in the IT industry where the changes are accelerating, bringing new hardware features and capabilities that require a code re-write or totally new code to make it useful for the masses, and seesaw keep on swinging up and down.

Nothing new to see here, just the typical norms of the razors edge, and it's why we hold back a little and stick to the tried and true with Debian Stable. We let others slide down the razors edge and when it edge is worn off, we can walk down it with less propensity to slip-n-slice.

[CharlesV]

We let others slide down the razors edge and when it edge is worn off, we can walk down it with less propensity to slip-n-slice.

OH I love that!!

[dreamer]

I'm not an MX Linux dev, but I think fragmentation is the real issue here. When I started it was easy. People used Gnome2 or KDE3.

Now there is complexity everywhere:
Many, many desktop environments
Many toolkits, not just gtk2 and Qt3
UEFI
Secure Boot
Many inits
Two incompatible display systems
AppImages, Flatpaks and Snaps

I think starting with Linux today is harder, because there are just too many variables. The influx of young people is limited as seen on many Linux forums. Or maybe they just don't post.

[timkb4cq]

There's been complexity and fragmentation as long as I have been using Linux.
I remember packaging programs circa 2007 that used WxWidgets, Motif, SWT, Tcl/Tk, & FlTk as well as the more common Qt & Gtk toolkits.
Booting with Lilo, grub, or grub2
Display systems where you had to type the parameters of your graphics card and monitor into a config file before X would work.

Starting with Linux today is easier than it's ever been. Most distros will boot and install from a thumb drive and have the all the hardware auto-configured.

And the young kids are using Linux. It's what powers their phones, tablets, game consoles, Smart TVs, and Chromebooks. What they're not using as much are old-fashioned PCs.

[m_pav]

What they're not using as much are old-fashioned PCs.

Exactly, and it's for convenience because to get real work done, a fully fledged PC/Laptop is the superior option. One benefit of Desktop Linux (preferrably MX) over devices is, at least it will not listen to your conversations 24/7, send that data to advertisers and suddenly you're getting ads about the very thing you were speaking of in private.

[rambo919]

Its a common problem where both software and hardware is more complex than it used to be but the people that have been getting used to the growing complexity don't actually notice it..... and they will argue you to death with responses like "it's much easier to get into now than ever" without ever noticing they are arguing something completely different than the concern actually being addressed.

Call it fish not noticing the water it swims, call it frog in the heating pot it's all basically the same problem.

As for worse or not.... the problem is the complexity is starting to force fragmentation. First systemd started replacing init and everyone grumbled but kinda accepted it.... MX loudly and proudly used to scream from the rooftops "we are systemd free unless you want it" now it's become a grouchy "init or systemd but probably actually systemd in practice" as reality is starting to become unignorable. This to date has for the most part not really been a problem except recently when systemd started breaking accessibility software by simply deprecating an important component and going "well what are you going to do about it? our sofware our rules!"

Now with xorg vs wayland it's a WHOLE other kettle of fish where people are hoping the same exercise can be repeated and are getting enraged and going on froth at the mouth rantings and ravings about "conspiracy theories" and"qwaks" and "dangerous elements" and "misinformation" and whatever else if someone points out that wayland is nor REALLY ready to actually replace xorg yet. Some actually go so far as to say it's not wayland's fault that it cannot do everything xorg can it's the fault of the various application devs that they cant figure out how to do these things..... when a lot of the time the only way of actually doing it is using a translation layer that actually runs xorg in wayland if that even actually works.

The obvious problem is you don't need a init translation layer to do things that systemd cannot.

And then there is the constant attempts to deprecate all 32-bit code.... pretending "we are ready" and when something falls apart "the community is to blame not us".

And with all the drama it's quite obvious who is actually causing all the real problems. The corporate entities that partially control Linux in practice through various means wants both complete and utter control over it as well as trying to force through paradigm changes that benefit their interests at the expense of everyone else. You even had attempts to hijack FOSS as a concept where certain parts are re-interpreted, the most famous one being "open ai" that's not open at all and only kinda ai anyway. And whenever you dare publicly mention that the hippies are in the pocket of the capitalists? SILENCE WITH YOUR CONSPIRACY THEORY GARBAGE YOU HERETIC

I'm not going to even bother pointing fingers, everyone knows by now whom everyone else is. The dream is basically dead, Linux at this pace will soon basically be Windows in a few decades instead of a refuge from Windows.... and Windows is desperately trying to be Mac. Ubuntu used to be the poster boy for this nonsense and now Red Hat has taken the crown, Debian is controlled by the infiltration of colonized neurodivergents but no one knows (or really cares yet) to what point so hopefully it does not fall apart because of some random stupid nerd civil war at some point. Mint almost erupted in a communal b-fight over Israel....

The problem is not the software.... it's the people in positions of dominance over it being narcissists making every little thing a personal war to virtue signal to themselves how "worthy" they are of love or something. Linus is already on the brink of a random fatal stroke the way he carries on... when he retires it's gonna get wild as the corporations start grabbing turf.

[dolphin_oracle]

MX Devs: Do you think the Linux ecosystem is getting worse?

no.

[AVLinux]

@rambo919

I kind of agree some wind has seemingly gone out of the sails for general public interest in Linux although as @timkb4cq points out the restless untethered churn of development and competing ideas has always been there and the fear of change presented by systemd and wayland are much worse than the technologies themselves.

Personally out of workflow necessity recently I've been using Windows 10 (self-installed with ad targeting stuff and onedrive turned off) and for what I've been doing it has been a very productive and refreshing experience. No deals being made to get things to work, no Wine bridging or finding random github solutions to fill gaps. The software I'm using (Topaz Labs, Davinci Resolve, TMPGEnc) all works fully without missing features, the Audio hardware works with it's full functionality and the Drivers work well and often have extra usability features and GUI components that are missing in Linux.. Sure I'm using some commercial software and it has both subtle and quite noticeable advantages over some of it's FOSS counterparts. We have a lot of great FOSS stuff and the arc of improvement over the last 15 years has been incredible but there are still often compromises great and small. What HAS changed immensely is that my main Linux apps (Ardour, Mixbus, Firefox, GIMP, Hydrogen, Kdenlive, VLC, MPV, ffmpeg) are all available and working quite well on Windows..

But this temporary bliss is also short-lived with Win 10 going away and of course in Windows I miss all the daily convenience features and exhaustive right-click actions and endless User configurability of Linux. If and (I believe it's a shrinking if) the demise of Windows 10 does send casual PC Users to Linux I think it may both be easier than ever to install a working Linux but also the most turbulent time for everything under the hood of Linux going on at the same time and this will be felt by some people after they make the switch and how well the mainline Distros handle this and insulate the User will be vital in keeping whatever migration may happen.

[mxer]

I'm not a dev, but I don't think it is getting any worse than it has been, there has always been perhaps too many choices, but what I don't like is Commercial interests changing things to their own advantage.

Personally, I keep my hand in with BSD, just in case the Corporate interests really bugger Linux up, which is the way it does seem to be going, unfortunately.