Xorg has been Forked!  [Solved]

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asqwerth
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Re: Xorg has been Forked!

#31 Post by asqwerth »

Artim wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 11:08 am If you say so... but I do hope they keep the software alive and healthy.
Here it is already in the Arch AUR... I think the first official release is June 21st.
I don't really have any view on XLibre .

However, I'm not sure you can put much significance on an individual choosing to prepare PKGBUILDS of whatever packages they want in the AUR.

It's not an official Arch thing.
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dreamer
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Re: Xorg has been Forked!

#32 Post by dreamer »

dolphin_oracle wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:49 pm
Adrian wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:21 pm That's a good point, but there's no reason for those desktop/window managers not to add Wayland support, Xfce has experimental support for Wayland.
yeah but they do it by scraping their xfwm4 window manager.

for me, I'll worry about when I have to, and not before.
I agree.
I think people underestimate how long X.org will be around (patched by X.org devs). At least 2030, but probably longer. It's available in RHEL9.
Also, as far as I know no one will upgrade classic window managers to Wayland since it requires a complete rewrite.
Regarding KDE I have read X.org support will be there until KDE 7. KDE 7 is probably not even in the planning stage, since it requires Qt7. KDE5 had versions up to 5.27. Now KDE is at version 6.4.
SysVinit is still kept around by maintainer Jesse, MX Linux, Devuan and PCLOS. Expect X.org to have a similar fan base to keep it going.
Another thing: There is a small bug in lightdm that prevents Wayland sessions from being launched. I think XFCE (and Cinnamon) devs have prepared a workaround, but for anyone wanting to use Wayland today, upstream lightdm isn't there yet (patch rejected for now).

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anticapitalista
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Re: Xorg has been Forked!

#33 Post by anticapitalista »

dolphin_oracle wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:49 pm
Adrian wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:21 pm That's a good point, but there's no reason for those desktop/window managers not to add Wayland support, Xfce has experimental support for Wayland.
yeah but they do it by scraping their xfwm4 window manager.

for me, I'll worry about when I have to, and not before.
Very sensible.
For antiX, we'll see what comes of this fork, but I'm not holding my breath.
(I would love to be wrong though).
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Re: Xorg has been Forked!

#34 Post by AVLinux »

Hi,

I don't know all of the full and technical explanations for Xorg vs. Wayland but I think Wayland will also be slowed down a bit by the huge number of applications that haven't yet been pressure tested with the Xwayland X11 compatibility layer. As an example for Audio production I use the Ardour recording program which is also the base of Harrison Mixbus. On the Ardour forum there are numerous reports of people having performance issues with Ardour on Gnome and KDE relating to using the Wayland session, these problems disappear when Xorg is used. Pretty much all production programs that utilize Plugins have a double helping of potential issues because there are thousands of Plugins and they are currently designed for X11 (or use X11 toolkits). To be clear I'm not 'against' Wayland I'm simply saying there are a lot of scenarios where it is not yet working smoothly and it is not yet widespread enough in Linuxdom to have gotten exposed to every task that people use their Linux computers for. In production circles the same thing is occurring with PipeWire, although it was a pretty seamless transition from PulseAudio the JACK (pipewire-jack) side of PipeWire is still not working as well as it's JACK predecessor and PipeWire is quite mature now. I'm sure there are many Wayland and Xwayland incompatibilities to yet be discovered.

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Re: Xorg has been Forked!

#35 Post by Nokkaelaein »

AVLinux wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 4:44 pm Pretty much all production programs that utilize Plugins have a double helping of potential issues because there are thousands of Plugins and they are currently designed for X11 (or use X11 toolkits). To be clear I'm not 'against' Wayland I'm simply saying there are a lot of scenarios where it is not yet working smoothly and it is not yet widespread enough in Linuxdom to have gotten exposed to every task that people use their Linux computers for.
Heh, this is 100% my sentiment as well; I considered writing about it here, but decided not to. Everything you said is spot on in the current situation, yes. Running production software both (extremely) current and legacy, spanning four different plugin standards, three different native hosts, everything configured manually on a case by case basis, around thousand different executable binaries, all of them showing a GUI of some kind; adding to these, modular environments that have their own such standards, and so on and so forth. Everything installed and in many cases locally compiled, from outside of any apt repo or similar. There are just way too many special use cases like this that are still on way shaky ground in regards to switching to Wayland and expecting everything needed to "just work", also considering the realtime nature of systems like this. I don't doubt I'll be switching to Wayland at some point but when that time comes, it is still going to take weeks/months to even test whether everything works or not.

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DukeComposed
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Re: Xorg has been Forked!

#36 Post by DukeComposed »

Artim wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 11:08 am If you say so... but I do hope they keep the software alive and healthy.
X11 is neither alive nor healthy. X11 is old. X11 is designed to solve problems that existed 30 or 40 years ago, and hasn't adapted well to modern hardware, or modern use cases. Is Wayland perfect? No, of course not. But Wayland has the advantage of being built on top of what we've learned and improved over the years since X11 was the only game in town.

A lot of people love systemd because it's a learned improvement on sysvinit. Where sysvinit was primitive, they say, systemd is sophisticated. A lot of people still use Morse code, too. And once in a while you'll still find somebody who uses a slide rule to solve math problems instead of a calculator.

There are pros and cons in throwing out the old thing and adopting the new thing. There are certainly growing pains, as many of the Linux users who were early Wayland adopters will admit. There are, too, cons about staying on the old thing. Growing up is hard. Splitting off, grafting, and replanting onto a new stock is hard. Linux is fully in its awkward teenage phase now: too old to be completely revamped with a new technology stack, too young to have a foundational dependency everyone is forced to rely upon. It's time for an upgrade, one decades in the making. And each project that depends on X11 is working through how to complete the transition at their best pace.

Edit: typo
Last edited by DukeComposed on Fri Jun 20, 2025 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Xorg has been Forked!

#37 Post by DukeComposed »

Adrian wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:24 pm BSD rubs me the wrong way (it's not the license, I'm fine with that), I don't like the monolithic approach which usually they claim is their advantages, I am more of a "mix and match" fan.
I'm quite the opposite. I grew up on MS-DOS and Windows 3.11 and the appeal of open source operating systems started to become apparent to me in the late 1990s(?) when I read a CNet.com article called "Bye-bye, Windows" by Christopher Lindquist. He outlined a few different OSes and, specifically, he mentioned FreeBSD 3.2. What attracted me to FreeBSD over Slackware or Red Hat at the time was that there was a monolithic approach. If something went wrong, there was one place I could point a finger and say "Hey. This doesn't work."

Now, all these years later, very little has changed. Linux folks love to deflect blame. BSD folks love to deflect blame. Linux folks say "Well, that's a different project, you need to go upstream and complain to those people." BSD folks love to say "Well, that's documented behavior, we'd love to change it, here's a thread from six years ago where we discussed fixing it and, wowzers, we just would love to have more resources to address the issue." Don't you know, BSD is dying, after all. Wink.

Neither camp is better. Neither camp is, in practice, worse. Both have let me down. Ask me for stories. I'll tell you. Anyone still standing on one as better than the other on principle alone isn't using the product and reporting bugs.

File a bug, gauge the response. You'll find out pretty quickly which camp you prefer.

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Re: Xorg has been Forked!

#38 Post by Adrian »

I think it's more of a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathe ... the_Bazaar type of thing. I'm in the bazaar camp.

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Re: Xorg has been Forked!

#39 Post by DukeComposed »

Adrian wrote: Fri Jun 20, 2025 1:13 am I think it's more of a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathe ... the_Bazaar type of thing. I'm in the bazaar camp.
And that's fine. There's a boon in having a completely customized, finely-tuned sports car that you built yourself. This is only useful if you're skilled enough to build your own custom sports car. For most people, myself included, we need a little help and we have to hope that someone knows how to, competently, hook up an engine and a suspension and a transmission and rack and pinion steering.

I, too, love the freedom to be able to pick and choose my options in Linux. There are multiple BSD projects but if one said "we're migrating to systemd" I'd be as outraged as any Linux user who's suddenly told "we're only going to offer KDE from now on." Some of the users would be happy with that choice, some of the users would be outraged. And rightfully so. It's better, in my opinion, for users to be able to make their own decisions. But there's a caveat.

I point it out because, frankly, many users aren't capable of making their own decisions. Many users need someone to put the pieces together and make it all work. I'm sure someone out there has downloaded the Linux kernel source code and built it and downloaded the Xfce or KDE source code and built that, too, and is running a completely custom Linux system and I'm glad he's smart enough to be able to do that and the feds haven't kicked in his door to arrest him for doing so because the licenses all agree with each other that he's allowed to do what he's done.

And yes, he could just install a BSD and get the same thing for a lot less effort. And just as I felt when I was a teenager, I liked that option, too. I still do. But that's the crux of the matter: control over the components versus functionality of the overall system. Make a decision.

There are projects that take control away, but that provide functionality: Debian. Devuan. Ubuntu. Linux Mint. MX. Arch. Dozens more. Smart folks who know how to work a compiler take the bits and bobs and get a working OS. I, myself, and dozens of other forum users never could accomplish this. And there are plenty of newbies and neophytes who love MX and fail to appreciate that MX Linux isn't just this singular, magical thing; someone had to bring the kernel and the bootloader and the UI together and make it all run and build an ISO that gives a working live session but also there's an installer and they both have a word processor and a browser and so on and so on.... it's staggering how much work goes into making a thing people can download and use for free. To put it simply, we are shocked.

Maybe you fall on the cathedral side of things. Maybe you fall on the bazaar side. Maybe you don't care which side you're on, but you're just a cheapskate and you want the one that costs less. Maybe you care about scale and, whatever you do, you want to be able to do it a thousand more times. Or you're creative and you want to do something unique and then distribute it to fans or followers. BSD will let you do that, and charge money if you like. GPL will let you do that, but you have to outline how to you did it so people can do the same thing you did, for free.

That's the agreement. That's the new cathedral and the new bazaar. With BSD you can take code, change it, and release it without sharing the source, for free or for money. With GPL you can sell the code if you want, but you have to, have to, HAVE TO publish your code. Where you fall between the cathedral and the bazaar largely depends on what you want to get out of the experience. Are you an entrepreneur, or an artist? Unlike folks who work at IBM and Oracle and Microsoft and Apple and HP and all the other proprietary code corporations, you have options.

Edit: typo
Last edited by DukeComposed on Fri Jun 20, 2025 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Xorg has been Forked!

#40 Post by Nokkaelaein »

DukeComposed wrote: Fri Jun 20, 2025 2:07 am Are you an entrepreneur, or an artist?
Well, literally both over here ;) ... In mindset, and also in very concrete official bureaucratic / taxation terms, lol.

For me, personally, the OS is for running the (often proprietary) tools I need, to do what I do, both for myself and my clients. It's a bonus if the system is technologically beautiful and allows me to do maintenance tasks, etc, in ways that some other system can't. MX is huge in that regard. But in any case, all of this is for running the software I need and doing it with impeccable realtime performance. In the end, if using X11 lets me run this stuff better, I'll use that, and if Wayland does it better, I'll use that. The same with sysvinit and systemd. Something like BSD has never been a realistic option in a use case like this. Little by little, Linux has become a great platform for this, especially with the uniquely functional and mature live system / snapshotting that MX Linux provides. That's a "allows me to do maintenance tasks in ways that some other system can't" right there. There is still one (1) piece of software that I so wish would support Linux natively, but it doesn't seem likely... so I keep Windows around for that. (A de facto tool used especially in orchestral writing for film / tv / game soundtracks. I have invested tens of thousands into that ecosystem during the years, and there is no real substitute.) But yeah. Having your own Linux environment in a known, functional state, able to start and deploy just like that... is great, and MX with its said tools makes all the difference for me.

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