Strange boot-up problems on old desktop computer

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br1anstorm
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:25 pm

Re: Strange boot-up problems on old desktop computer

#11 Post by br1anstorm »

CharlesV wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 4:56 pm MX Boot repair will give you a few options to try, you might start there and see if either reinstalling or repairing grub might help.

This issue sounds to me like something is possibly running the wrong grub? and then eventually figuring it out. If you can wipe the drive, that might be another method to see whats up - wipe the drive and then reinstall.. and personally I would install into one partition / and see if that helps things.
Thanks, @CharlesV . Although I didn't say so in my original post, I have tried actions on those lines already, but they don't seem to have made any difference. I used to have both MX and Mint on this old computer, and encountered difficulties with booting up. So in an attempt to simplify matters I wiped and reformatted the hard drive and then installed MX 23.5 alone, using the default settings, as a clean fresh install on the whole disk (ie with just the / (root) and /home partitions). That's how the setup is currently configured.

I assume that this default installation puts the MX Grub into the MBR (which is I think the norm). I noted that MX had a Boot Repair tool, so I tried that. It gives the option of reinstalling the [repaired] Grub into the MBR and/or the partition containing MX 23. I ticked the boxes for both. I may thus have two Grubs (how do I check?) . But neither appears to function automatically when I try to boot up from the hard drive. And I am still mystified by the error message which refers to "....failed attempts to read or write outside of disk 'hd0'" . What does that message actually mean?

br1anstorm
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:25 pm

Re: Strange boot-up problems on old desktop computer

#12 Post by br1anstorm »

oops wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 5:38 pm ... You can also try for an old PC, a old kernel (ex: 5.10.xx , or 4.19.xx antiX via MXPI)
https://www.kernel.org/category/releases.html
That's an approach that is way outside my limited experience. I'm familiar with normal updates which deliver (usually) newer versions of the same kernel. I have no idea how to go about installing an old(er) kernel.

To use the same analogy about cars again, that seems again to be like throwing parts at a problem without knowing the reason. Installing a different - older - kernel seems to me a bit like saying ".. the engine on that classic car won't start or is misfiring: so remove it and put in an engine from an even older vehicle....".

Also, I have to comment that - once I manage to get it booted up - this old desktop seems to run the latest MX23.5, with kernel 6.1.0-33, perfectly reliably, if slowly. How will changing to an older kernel cure issues around booting-up, and access to and operation of Grub?

Having said that, I still have older versions of MXLinux (v16. 1 from 2017, and v21.3 from 2023) as Live CDs. Is there any point in wiping the hard disk, reformatting it, and then installing one of these older versions of MX instead? If it really is worth trying, I'm prepared to experiment.

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oops
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Re: Strange boot-up problems on old desktop computer

#13 Post by oops »

It is pretty simple via MXPI:

Code: Select all

su-to-root -x -c mx-packageinstaller &
Popular Appli > Kernel > ...

PS: about the ata1: SRST failed (errno=-16) ... maybe it is the jumper setting.
https://www.donordrives.com/media/catal ... 2-0046.jpg

https://forums.opensuse.org/t/solved-at ... rs/62083/7
"...Now I went back to the Western Digital manual. This time I found a fourth jumper option: cable select. Ah, that sounds vaguely familiar! I moved the jumper to the CS position and booted one more time.
This time the boot proceeded at lightning speed, and the “ata1: SRST failed” messages were gone..."
Last edited by oops on Sat Apr 19, 2025 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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CharlesV
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Re: Strange boot-up problems on old desktop computer

#14 Post by CharlesV »

br1anstorm wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 5:43 pm
CharlesV wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 4:56 pm MX Boot repair will give you a few options to try, you might start there and see if either reinstalling or repairing grub might help.

This issue sounds to me like something is possibly running the wrong grub? and then eventually figuring it out. If you can wipe the drive, that might be another method to see whats up - wipe the drive and then reinstall.. and personally I would install into one partition / and see if that helps things.
Thanks, @CharlesV . Although I didn't say so in my original post, I have tried actions on those lines already, but they don't seem to have made any difference. I used to have both MX and Mint on this old computer, and encountered difficulties with booting up. So in an attempt to simplify matters I wiped and reformatted the hard drive and then installed MX 23.5 alone, using the default settings, as a clean fresh install on the whole disk (ie with just the / (root) and /home partitions). That's how the setup is currently configured.

I assume that this default installation puts the MX Grub into the MBR (which is I think the norm). I noted that MX had a Boot Repair tool, so I tried that. It gives the option of reinstalling the [repaired] Grub into the MBR and/or the partition containing MX 23. I ticked the boxes for both. I may thus have two Grubs (how do I check?) . But neither appears to function automatically when I try to boot up from the hard drive. And I am still mystified by the error message which refers to "....failed attempts to read or write outside of disk 'hd0'" . What does that message actually mean?
SO.. that error message is telling you that grub is attempting to get onto the wrong partition. ( I suspect because you had / have two partitions for boot.)

You might try the reverse of the 'auto install' . Been a bit since I did it, but as I recall it was something like:

new install using the advanced options (don't use the "erase disk and install ") do this instead -
- Create a 1 GB (1024 MB) ext4 partition on the beginning of the disk; mounted in "/boot"
- Create your desired install space in ext4 mounted in "/" MINUS your swap area
- Use remaining space for swap. (ALL partitions will be primary)
In the boot install drop down menu, select your "/boot" partition. Not the defaulted drive root!
do the install.

If that still doesnt work for you, then liveUSB, run gparted and look at the drive and see what is going on. ( look around too... possibly some other partition left over some place ? )
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br1anstorm
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:25 pm

Re: Strange boot-up problems on old desktop computer

#15 Post by br1anstorm »

CharlesV wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 6:30 pm
....
You might try the reverse of the 'auto install' .

....
Well, I tried that. Using a Live CD/DVD , I reformatted the entire hard drive using Gparted, created a separate 1GB /boot partition, a 50GB /root partition, and a 2 GB swap space, and left the rest unallocated.

Ran the customised install to put MX21.3 (which has an older kernel) on to the hard drive. When it was done I rebooted. Got the initial screen which listed all the devices etc and the message "Verifying DMI Pool Data.....". Then after a short while, the same old further message saying "Boot from CD: Disk boot failure, insert system disk and press enter". So no joy there.

I did Ctrl-Alt-Del to get back to the initial screen, chose Esc to get to the boot menu, and opted to boot from the CD/DVDROM (which I had put back into the tray).

From the launch screen of that Live CD/DVD I selected "Switch to Grub bootloader" . Something else happened which I hadn't seen before. A black screen with the heading "GNU Grub version 2.06-3~deb11u5", and then the text "Minimal BASH-like line editing is supported. For the first word, TAB lists possible command completions. Anywhere else TAB lists possible device or file completions." Then on the next line grub>, with a flashing cursor.

This is way outside my comfort zone. So I got out (Ctrl-Alt-Del), and went back to the Live CD/DVD. This time I chose 'Boot from hard disk' from the list.

Again, didn't work. Up came a black screen with text as follows:

Booting...
GRUB loading
Welcome to GRUB!
error: file '/boot/grub/i386-pc/normal.mod' not found
grub rescue>

...... and a flashing cursor.

Again, nothing I could do but get out (Ctrl-Alt-Del)

So I'm stumped. I had put Grub into its own dedicated boot partition (sda1) when I did this latest install. But the system apparently can't find it. There are no other mystery partitions or leftover bits on the hard drive (as far as I know).

So all I can do is get into a Live session. Is there anything else I can do - in that Live session - either to investigate or to repair whatever is on the hard drive?

br1anstorm
Posts: 96
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Re: Strange boot-up problems on old desktop computer

#16 Post by br1anstorm »

oops wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 6:25 pm
PS: about the ata1: SRST failed (errno=-16) ... maybe it is the jumper setting.
Just to follow up on this separate strand of discussion. As regards the kernel, my experiment attempting to install and run MX21.3 (which has kernel 5.10.xxx) failed at the first hurdle. See separate post in reply to @CharlesV . The issue seems to be with the location and operation of Grub. Which suggests that using a different kernel is unlikely to be relevant or helpful (or am I missing something?).

As for the SRST failure and the idea of changing jumper settings, this is unfamiliar territory. I deduce that it means opening up the casing and physically playing around with wires and cables. As the case has never been opened and no hardware removed, installed or changed, it's a little hard to grasp how a machine which was working normally should now somehow need rewiring or replacing of hardware. Is that what's being suggested? Or are we talking about setting, or resetting, something in the BIOS? (I can get into the BIOS from the initial splash screen by hitting Del. But what BIOS setting should I check or change?)

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oops
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Re: Strange boot-up problems on old desktop computer

#17 Post by oops »

... For the Hdd jumper, yes, or just see if the actual setting is correct (CS or Master, not Slave).
Pour les nouveaux utilisateurs: Alt+F1 pour le manuel, ou FAQS, MX MANUEL, et Conseils Debian - Info. système “quick-system-info-mx” (QSI) ... Ici: System: MX-19_x64 & antiX19_x32

br1anstorm
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Re: Strange boot-up problems on old desktop computer

#18 Post by br1anstorm »

oops wrote: Sun Apr 20, 2025 8:37 am ... For the Hdd jumper, yes, or just see if the actual setting is correct (CS or Master, not Slave).
According to the information in the BIOS, the hard disk drive is set as the Primary Master. The CD/DVD is shown as the Secondary Master. No Slave disks are identified.

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CharlesV
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Re: Strange boot-up problems on old desktop computer

#19 Post by CharlesV »

Well... one of the things I really like about Western Digital drives... is also one of the most problematic things I have ever seen on hard drives - *many* WD's dont just die.. they fail slowly... and typically with spectacular results. (in my experience.)

WDs are know for a "complex failure model" which includes:
Corrupt File Structures - which includes
  • Accidental deletion
    Accidental format
    File corruption
    Software "bugs"
    File system corruption
    And much more
Firmware Failures - including
  • Drive powers up, but is not recognized by the computer;
    Drive powers up, but is recognized wrongly, sometimes with nonsensical characters;
    Drive freezes during booting up;
Bad Platter Symptoms
  • Hard disk still accessible but appear to “hang” or “sluggish”;
    Constant Cyclic Redundancy (CRC) errors;
    Unable to access folders or files which can be seen

I am starting to think that j2mcgreg may be 100% correct on the drive giving out (or a part of it is bad - say the first part of FAT)

If it were me... the next thing I would do is to put in a new / different drive and test with that. ALL of what you are seeing very well could be that of a drive that has several poorly performing / bad sectors in the very worst spot.
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oops
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Re: Strange boot-up problems on old desktop computer

#20 Post by oops »

br1anstorm wrote: Sun Apr 20, 2025 8:55 am
oops wrote: Sun Apr 20, 2025 8:37 am ... For the Hdd jumper, yes, or just see if the actual setting is correct (CS or Master, not Slave).
According to the information in the BIOS, the hard disk drive is set as the Primary Master. The CD/DVD is shown as the Secondary Master. No Slave disks are identified.
"Secondary Master" means slave for PATA Hdds & CD/DVD. (maybe try to disconnect the CD/DVD ) ...
Pour les nouveaux utilisateurs: Alt+F1 pour le manuel, ou FAQS, MX MANUEL, et Conseils Debian - Info. système “quick-system-info-mx” (QSI) ... Ici: System: MX-19_x64 & antiX19_x32

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