MX Moksha "Out of Bodhi" Testing Release RC2

[Aceediq]

...

oh alright, let's stay out of the weeds and talk on moksha, I read in your RC1 thread that moksha's compositing isn't as good as enlightenment but they made available a workaround using picom...

but you added that, in line with the capabilities of picom as we know, picom does it's job...I want to ask if picom doing what picom does is as good as enlightenment's compositing?

what does enlightenment use to handle compositing if not picom?

and is there any reason why the moksha devs did not carry over enlightenment's compositing over to moksha?

Native enlightenment compositing was stripped out of e17 code when Jeff Hoogland forked e17 and called it moksha. That was before I took over as lead dev for Bodhi. But the reason is clear e17 composting was problematic and buggy. Enlightenment compositing is less buggy now, BUT it is still problematic for Bodhi. The issue is that it does not work on really old video cards. Bodhi is one of a small handful of distros that one can install on these older machines it is best for us if it works out of the box as much as possible.

then it's a no brainer to go with this moksha variant since @AVLinux has confirmed picom is as good as enlightenment to an extent...what really sold me is divergent option linux offers to those who want to add a spin to a distro is found in the option of bodhi devs allowing for compositing to be toggled on/off...though such options might have been rampant in the past...currently, those options are like both fresh air and nostalgia nowadays when the act of nerfing user options, painfully without real valid reasons is becoming defacto circumstance

but what bothers me is moksha's future concerning the client that may be used in future - wayland...though like @AVLinux pointed out, a lot of creative linux softwares still cater primarily for x11 but x11 being overthrown by wayland is something I still consider...like pipewire is subtly usurping the audio routing throne from pulseaudio and jack

nothing wrong with distro hopping but the more linux becomes my daily driver, the more I am entrenched in linux workflows, the more I seek stabilities in linux distros...

so if moksha isn't on the wayland ship, I hope it is, what's the benefit of trying out moksha, if all this is temporary?

I love good aesthetics and moksha has that over enlightenment but as @AVLinux AVL perks are becoming distro agnostic, other candidates, a worthy mention would be @Freja extrox, are becoming viable options for a well built creative/creator distro...


I hope my assumptions aren't off t

[AVLinux]

Well,

I was also a bit put off at first by the lack of Wayland support and then I thought about Fluxbox having no Wayland support and the reality that XFCE4 has just started with preliminary support, LXQT is somewhere in the middle and yes of course Gnome and KDE are pretty much there so yes, Wayland is inevitable but it is also NOT imminent. Debian is usually one of the last to drop core libraries and they will not be dropping Xorg any time soon. So being conservative X will be here in Debian Trixie and I would imagine the next Debian after Trixie would quite likely not drop X either so we're talking like 5-6 years in the future, I don't know about you but I have about 863 more important concerns than Wayland in the next 5 years. At this point I would not turn my back on something as unique, efficient and fun as Moksha because of far-off future Wayland concerns.

[Aceediq]

Well,

I was also a bit put off at first by the lack of Wayland support and then I thought about Fluxbox having no Wayland support and the reality that XFCE4 has just started with preliminary support, LXQT is somewhere in the middle and yes of course Gnome and KDE are pretty much there so yes, Wayland is inevitable but it is also NOT imminent. Debian is usually one of the last to drop core libraries and they will not be dropping Xorg any time soon. So being conservative X will be here in Debian Trixie and I would imagine the next Debian after Trixie would quite likely not drop X either so we're talking like 5-6 years in the future, I don't know about you but I have about 863 more important concerns than Wayland in the next 5 years. At this point I would not turn my back on something as unique, efficient and fun as Moksha because of far-off future Wayland concerns.

yeah that's quite the take

we don't pass on on icecream because it melts away quickly

but I still gear towards stability as the days go by...and the issue is not really about debian or mx dropping support, it's how most apps and DE's have made wayland top priority and how quickly the transitioning is going on...though there had been opinion wars and arguments for years...

I wouldn't pick icecream no matter how out of this world it may be over a meal that would have me going for hours...so I wouldn't want to have a blast with moksha only to end up transitioning 6years later, when it could have been done I would say subtly and w/o so much focus from my end...

that's if we even have 6years, it may be less or more...also, I don't personally get the vibe when linux devs rightly refuse to jump ship to things that have or would eventually become defacto over ideological reasons...in my head, it reads one knows death is coming and instead of taking steps to get rid of it, completely if possible, one rather takes steps to, as much as possible, ease in to death?

I am trying to install moksha using ventoy but I am getting hangs and init not found error (/ventoy/busybox/sh: can't access tty; job control turned off.)

mbr boot though

but I think it is a ventoy issue coping with the newer moksha iso though I am on the latest ventoy version...

[dreamer]

Hopefully X.org will "never" go away. It would mean the death of a lot of Linux functionality including desktops and window managers. SysVinit is still here despite systemd so I think the situation will be similar with X.org and Wayland. You will likely be able to avoid systemd-only and Wayland-only applications if you aren't too picky.

[AVLinux]

Hopefully X.org will "never" go away. It would mean the death of a lot of Linux functionality including desktops and window managers. SysVinit is still here despite systemd so I think the situation will be similar with X.org and Wayland. You will likely be able to avoid systemd-only and Wayland-only applications if you aren't too picky.

I sincerely hope you are right! The "if you aren't too picky" part was cute though... I don't know anyone more picky than Linux Users... People here post because they can't handle an animated bootsplash for .05 seconds and that's just the beginning.. I routinely see people uninstall a completely functional OS just to get an update for or obtain some incidental program or in my AVL case some random Audio Plugin. Linux people's pickiness is their undoing..

[blast0id]

well, I am a huge fan of DE's with good aesthetics, not average, so I am already tilting to your moksha variant since it is aesthetically more cohesive and uniform, for example the taskbar icons...

I'm just going to need a "blue" variant... lol... "#0008D0"


damn those HTC Energy ROMs... haha

[AVLinux]

well, I am a huge fan of DE's with good aesthetics, not average, so I am already tilting to your moksha variant since it is aesthetically more cohesive and uniform, for example the taskbar icons...

I'm just going to need a "blue" variant... lol... "#0008D0"


damn those HTC Energy ROMs... haha

Haha, the whole green thing is me being faithful to the default look and colors of Bodhi Linux, it's not really my design I'm just trying to maintain that look in the default setup so it's clearly identifiable. There are a lot of alternate Moksha themes installable from MXPI but I will say at this point there is not a dark blue/orange 'Diehard' color scheme like AV Linux has.

[FullScale4Me]

I am trying to install moksha using ventoy but I am getting hangs and init not found error (/ventoy/busybox/sh: can't access tty; job control turned off.)

mbr boot though

but I think it is a ventoy issue coping with the newer moksha iso though I am on the latest ventoy version...

I just did a bare metal install of Moksha to a Dell N7010 laptop (MBR) with Ventoy 1.1.05 ... Several reboots post-install with no noticeable errors.

Code: Select all

System:
  Kernel: 6.13.8-4-liquorix-amd64 [6.13-9~mx23ahs] arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 12.2.0 parameters: audit=0
    intel_pstate=disable amd_pstate=disable BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-6.13.8-4-liquorix-amd64
    root=UUID=<filter> ro quiet threadirqs splash
  Desktop: Moksha v: 0.4.1.18446 vt: 7 dm: LightDM v: 1.32.0 Distro: MX_MOKSHA-23-RC2_x64 Out of
    Bodhi TBD base: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)
Machine:
  Type: Portable System: Dell product: Inspiron N7010 v: A11 serial: <superuser required>
  Mobo: Dell model: 08VFX1 v: A11 serial: <superuser required> BIOS: Dell v: A11 date: 03/31/2011
Battery:
  ID-1: BAT0 charge: 5.4 Wh (100.0%) condition: 5.4/5.3 Wh (100.7%) volts: 11.9 min: 11.1
    model: PANASONIC Dell type: Li-ion serial: <filter> status: full
CPU:
  Info: model: Intel Core i5 M 460 bits: 64 type: MT MCP arch: Westmere gen: core 1 level: v2
    built: 2010-11 process: Intel 32nm family: 6 model-id: 0x25 (37) stepping: 5 microcode: 0x7
  Topology: cpus: 1x cores: 2 tpc: 2 threads: 4 smt: enabled cache: L1: 128 KiB
    desc: d-2x32 KiB; i-2x32 KiB L2: 512 KiB desc: 2x256 KiB L3: 3 MiB desc: 1x3 MiB
  Speed (MHz): avg: 2262 high: 2534 min/max: 1199/2534 boost: enabled scaling:
    driver: acpi-cpufreq governor: performance cores: 1: 1448 2: 2534 3: 2534 4: 2534 bogomips: 20217
  Flags: ht lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx
  Vulnerabilities:
  Type: gather_data_sampling status: Not affected
  Type: itlb_multihit status: KVM: Split huge pages
  Type: l1tf mitigation: PTE Inversion; VMX: conditional cache flushes, SMT vulnerable
  Type: mds status: Vulnerable: Clear CPU buffers attempted, no microcode; SMT vulnerable
  Type: meltdown mitigation: PTI
  Type: mmio_stale_data status: Unknown: No mitigations
  Type: reg_file_data_sampling status: Not affected
  Type: retbleed status: Not affected
  Type: spec_rstack_overflow status: Not affected
  Type: spec_store_bypass mitigation: Speculative Store Bypass disabled via prctl
  Type: spectre_v1 mitigation: usercopy/swapgs barriers and __user pointer sanitization
  Type: spectre_v2 mitigation: Retpolines; IBPB: conditional; IBRS_FW; STIBP: conditional; RSB
    filling; PBRSB-eIBRS: Not affected; BHI: Not affected
  Type: srbds status: Not affected
  Type: tsx_async_abort status: Not affected
Graphics:
  Device-1: Intel Core Processor Integrated Graphics vendor: Dell driver: i915 v: kernel
    arch: Gen-5.75 process: Intel 45nm built: 2010 ports: active: LVDS-1 empty: DP-1,HDMI-A-1,VGA-1
    bus-ID: 00:02.0 chip-ID: 8086:0046 class-ID: 0300
  Device-2: Microdia 1.3 MPixel Integrated Webcam type: USB driver: uvcvideo bus-ID: 1-1.4:3
    chip-ID: 0c45:641d class-ID: 0e02
  Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 1.21.1.7 compositor: enlightenment driver: X: loaded: intel
    dri: crocus gpu: i915 display-ID: :0.0 screens: 1
  Screen-1: 0 s-res: 1600x900 s-dpi: 96 s-size: 423x238mm (16.65x9.37") s-diag: 485mm (19.11")
  Monitor-1: LVDS-1 mapped: LVDS1 model: Seiko Epson 0x544b built: 2009 res: 1600x900 hz: 60
    dpi: 106 gamma: 1.2 size: 382x215mm (15.04x8.46") diag: 438mm (17.3") ratio: 16:9 modes: 1600x900
  API: OpenGL v: 2.1 Mesa 24.2.8-1mx23ahs renderer: Mesa Intel HD Graphics (ILK)
    direct-render: Yes
Audio:
  Device-1: Intel 5 Series/3400 Series High Definition Audio vendor: Dell 5 driver: snd_hda_intel
    v: kernel bus-ID: 00:1b.0 chip-ID: 8086:3b56 class-ID: 0403
  API: ALSA v: k6.13.8-4-liquorix-amd64 status: kernel-api tools: alsamixer,amixer
  Server-1: PipeWire v: 1.0.0 status: active with: 1: pipewire-pulse status: active
    2: wireplumber status: active 3: pipewire-alsa type: plugin 4: pw-jack type: plugin
    tools: pactl,pw-cat,pw-cli,wpctl
Network:
  Device-1: Broadcom BCM4313 802.11bgn Wireless Network Adapter vendor: Dell Inspiron M5010 / XPS
    8300 driver: wl v: kernel modules: bcma pcie: gen: 1 speed: 2.5 GT/s lanes: 1 bus-ID: 03:00.0
    chip-ID: 14e4:4727 class-ID: 0280
  IF: wlan0 state: dormant mac: <filter>
  Device-2: Qualcomm Atheros AR8152 v1.1 Fast Ethernet vendor: Dell driver: atl1c v: kernel pcie:
    gen: 1 speed: 2.5 GT/s lanes: 1 port: 2000 bus-ID: 04:00.0 chip-ID: 1969:2060 class-ID: 0200
  IF: eth0 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter>
Drives:
  Local Storage: total: 119.24 GiB used: 11.5 GiB (9.6%)
  SMART Message: Unable to run smartctl. Root privileges required.
  ID-1: /dev/sda maj-min: 8:0 vendor: Verbatim model: Vi550 S3 size: 119.24 GiB block-size:
    physical: 512 B logical: 512 B speed: 3.0 Gb/s type: SSD serial: <filter> rev: 840N scheme: MBR
Partition:
  ID-1: / raw-size: 19.53 GiB size: 19.06 GiB (97.57%) used: 11.5 GiB (60.3%) fs: ext4
    dev: /dev/sda4 maj-min: 8:4
Swap:
  Kernel: swappiness: 10 (default 60) cache-pressure: 100 (default)
  ID-1: swap-1 type: file size: 3 GiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) priority: -2 file: /swap/swap
  ID-2: swap-2 type: zram size: 256 MiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) priority: 100 dev: /dev/zram0
Sensors:
  System Temperatures: cpu: 44.0 C mobo: N/A
  Fan Speeds (RPM): cpu: 0
Repos:
  Packages: pm: dpkg pkgs: 2213 libs: 1253 tools: apt,apt-get,aptitude pm: rpm pkgs: 0 pm: flatpak
    pkgs: 0
  No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/bodhi-repo.list
    1: deb http://packages.bodhilinux.com/bodhi bookworm b7debbie
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian-stable-updates.list
    1: deb http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm-updates main contrib non-free non-free-firmware
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian.list
    1: deb http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm main contrib non-free non-free-firmware
    2: deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main contrib non-free non-free-firmware
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/mx.list
    1: deb http://mirror.math.princeton.edu/pub/mxlinux/mx/repo/ bookworm main non-free
    2: deb http://mirror.math.princeton.edu/pub/mxlinux/mx/repo/ bookworm ahs
Info:
  Processes: 230 Uptime: 4m wakeups: 4 Memory: 7.56 GiB used: 834.8 MiB (10.8%) Init: systemd
  v: 252 target: graphical (5) default: graphical tool: systemctl Compilers: gcc: 12.2.0 alt: 12
  Client: shell wrapper v: 5.2.15-release inxi: 3.3.26
Boot Mode: BIOS (legacy, CSM, MBR)

[Aceediq]

I am trying to install moksha using ventoy but I am getting hangs and init not found error (/ventoy/busybox/sh: can't access tty; job control turned off.)

mbr boot though

but I think it is a ventoy issue coping with the newer moksha iso though I am on the latest ventoy version...

I just did a bare metal install of Moksha to a Dell N7010 laptop (MBR) with Ventoy 1.1.05 ... Several reboots post-install with no noticeable errors.

Code: Select all

System:
  Kernel: 6.13.8-4-liquorix-amd64 [6.13-9~mx23ahs] arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 12.2.0 parameters: audit=0
    intel_pstate=disable amd_pstate=disable BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-6.13.8-4-liquorix-amd64
    root=UUID=<filter> ro quiet threadirqs splash
  Desktop: Moksha v: 0.4.1.18446 vt: 7 dm: LightDM v: 1.32.0 Distro: MX_MOKSHA-23-RC2_x64 Out of
    Bodhi TBD base: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)
Machine:
  Type: Portable System: Dell product: Inspiron N7010 v: A11 serial: <superuser required>
  Mobo: Dell model: 08VFX1 v: A11 serial: <superuser required> BIOS: Dell v: A11 date: 03/31/2011
Battery:
  ID-1: BAT0 charge: 5.4 Wh (100.0%) condition: 5.4/5.3 Wh (100.7%) volts: 11.9 min: 11.1
    model: PANASONIC Dell type: Li-ion serial: <filter> status: full
CPU:
  Info: model: Intel Core i5 M 460 bits: 64 type: MT MCP arch: Westmere gen: core 1 level: v2
    built: 2010-11 process: Intel 32nm family: 6 model-id: 0x25 (37) stepping: 5 microcode: 0x7
  Topology: cpus: 1x cores: 2 tpc: 2 threads: 4 smt: enabled cache: L1: 128 KiB
    desc: d-2x32 KiB; i-2x32 KiB L2: 512 KiB desc: 2x256 KiB L3: 3 MiB desc: 1x3 MiB
  Speed (MHz): avg: 2262 high: 2534 min/max: 1199/2534 boost: enabled scaling:
    driver: acpi-cpufreq governor: performance cores: 1: 1448 2: 2534 3: 2534 4: 2534 bogomips: 20217
  Flags: ht lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx
  Vulnerabilities:
  Type: gather_data_sampling status: Not affected
  Type: itlb_multihit status: KVM: Split huge pages
  Type: l1tf mitigation: PTE Inversion; VMX: conditional cache flushes, SMT vulnerable
  Type: mds status: Vulnerable: Clear CPU buffers attempted, no microcode; SMT vulnerable
  Type: meltdown mitigation: PTI
  Type: mmio_stale_data status: Unknown: No mitigations
  Type: reg_file_data_sampling status: Not affected
  Type: retbleed status: Not affected
  Type: spec_rstack_overflow status: Not affected
  Type: spec_store_bypass mitigation: Speculative Store Bypass disabled via prctl
  Type: spectre_v1 mitigation: usercopy/swapgs barriers and __user pointer sanitization
  Type: spectre_v2 mitigation: Retpolines; IBPB: conditional; IBRS_FW; STIBP: conditional; RSB
    filling; PBRSB-eIBRS: Not affected; BHI: Not affected
  Type: srbds status: Not affected
  Type: tsx_async_abort status: Not affected
Graphics:
  Device-1: Intel Core Processor Integrated Graphics vendor: Dell driver: i915 v: kernel
    arch: Gen-5.75 process: Intel 45nm built: 2010 ports: active: LVDS-1 empty: DP-1,HDMI-A-1,VGA-1
    bus-ID: 00:02.0 chip-ID: 8086:0046 class-ID: 0300
  Device-2: Microdia 1.3 MPixel Integrated Webcam type: USB driver: uvcvideo bus-ID: 1-1.4:3
    chip-ID: 0c45:641d class-ID: 0e02
  Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 1.21.1.7 compositor: enlightenment driver: X: loaded: intel
    dri: crocus gpu: i915 display-ID: :0.0 screens: 1
  Screen-1: 0 s-res: 1600x900 s-dpi: 96 s-size: 423x238mm (16.65x9.37") s-diag: 485mm (19.11")
  Monitor-1: LVDS-1 mapped: LVDS1 model: Seiko Epson 0x544b built: 2009 res: 1600x900 hz: 60
    dpi: 106 gamma: 1.2 size: 382x215mm (15.04x8.46") diag: 438mm (17.3") ratio: 16:9 modes: 1600x900
  API: OpenGL v: 2.1 Mesa 24.2.8-1mx23ahs renderer: Mesa Intel HD Graphics (ILK)
    direct-render: Yes
Audio:
  Device-1: Intel 5 Series/3400 Series High Definition Audio vendor: Dell 5 driver: snd_hda_intel
    v: kernel bus-ID: 00:1b.0 chip-ID: 8086:3b56 class-ID: 0403
  API: ALSA v: k6.13.8-4-liquorix-amd64 status: kernel-api tools: alsamixer,amixer
  Server-1: PipeWire v: 1.0.0 status: active with: 1: pipewire-pulse status: active
    2: wireplumber status: active 3: pipewire-alsa type: plugin 4: pw-jack type: plugin
    tools: pactl,pw-cat,pw-cli,wpctl
Network:
  Device-1: Broadcom BCM4313 802.11bgn Wireless Network Adapter vendor: Dell Inspiron M5010 / XPS
    8300 driver: wl v: kernel modules: bcma pcie: gen: 1 speed: 2.5 GT/s lanes: 1 bus-ID: 03:00.0
    chip-ID: 14e4:4727 class-ID: 0280
  IF: wlan0 state: dormant mac: <filter>
  Device-2: Qualcomm Atheros AR8152 v1.1 Fast Ethernet vendor: Dell driver: atl1c v: kernel pcie:
    gen: 1 speed: 2.5 GT/s lanes: 1 port: 2000 bus-ID: 04:00.0 chip-ID: 1969:2060 class-ID: 0200
  IF: eth0 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter>
Drives:
  Local Storage: total: 119.24 GiB used: 11.5 GiB (9.6%)
  SMART Message: Unable to run smartctl. Root privileges required.
  ID-1: /dev/sda maj-min: 8:0 vendor: Verbatim model: Vi550 S3 size: 119.24 GiB block-size:
    physical: 512 B logical: 512 B speed: 3.0 Gb/s type: SSD serial: <filter> rev: 840N scheme: MBR
Partition:
  ID-1: / raw-size: 19.53 GiB size: 19.06 GiB (97.57%) used: 11.5 GiB (60.3%) fs: ext4
    dev: /dev/sda4 maj-min: 8:4
Swap:
  Kernel: swappiness: 10 (default 60) cache-pressure: 100 (default)
  ID-1: swap-1 type: file size: 3 GiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) priority: -2 file: /swap/swap
  ID-2: swap-2 type: zram size: 256 MiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) priority: 100 dev: /dev/zram0
Sensors:
  System Temperatures: cpu: 44.0 C mobo: N/A
  Fan Speeds (RPM): cpu: 0
Repos:
  Packages: pm: dpkg pkgs: 2213 libs: 1253 tools: apt,apt-get,aptitude pm: rpm pkgs: 0 pm: flatpak
    pkgs: 0
  No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/bodhi-repo.list
    1: deb http://packages.bodhilinux.com/bodhi bookworm b7debbie
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian-stable-updates.list
    1: deb http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm-updates main contrib non-free non-free-firmware
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian.list
    1: deb http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm main contrib non-free non-free-firmware
    2: deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main contrib non-free non-free-firmware
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/mx.list
    1: deb http://mirror.math.princeton.edu/pub/mxlinux/mx/repo/ bookworm main non-free
    2: deb http://mirror.math.princeton.edu/pub/mxlinux/mx/repo/ bookworm ahs
Info:
  Processes: 230 Uptime: 4m wakeups: 4 Memory: 7.56 GiB used: 834.8 MiB (10.8%) Init: systemd
  v: 252 target: graphical (5) default: graphical tool: systemctl Compilers: gcc: 12.2.0 alt: 12
  Client: shell wrapper v: 5.2.15-release inxi: 3.3.26
Boot Mode: BIOS (legacy, CSM, MBR)

booting from usb drive, legacy boot, bare metal, gives the first image before restrarting and showing the second image

does anyone know of other ways to attach pictures to a post? postimages or the forum file attachment options aren't working for me...

[Aceediq]

Hopefully X.org will "never" go away. It would mean the death of a lot of Linux functionality including desktops and window managers. SysVinit is still here despite systemd so I think the situation will be similar with X.org and Wayland. You will likely be able to avoid systemd-only and Wayland-only applications if you aren't too picky.

yeah, x11 going away would mean the death of linux components that decide not to switch over...

if alsa could move to PA and now pipewire, the linux landscape would evolve to stability and distro immutable functions...

the linux ecosystem has evolved from dev, geek only users to a wide variety of users which is why GUI interfaces are on the rise, though there are cmdesque users who detest such evolution but that is a necessary evolution and they would have to come to terms with that, if they want a cmd geeky devy distro, that option is still available...standing against such evolution because they don't like it doesn't make sense any longer...

look at debian and sysD, they moved forward, why? they are becoming user centric which is the way forward for having the year of the linux...devuan tried to make a sysd free distro but they couldn't do that completely...we have sysv on mxlinux because of serious efforts from the mxdevs but at the same time, they allowed for a sysd option, which has proven to be a very good decision down the line...

currently sysd compatibility is just a step from being hardcoded into linux apps...last I checked, if I am not wrong, either inkscape or gimp has prioritized a sysd compatibility development milestone...why would we then choose to kick against a rock while leaving no room for other options for those who do not agree to kick against the rocks?

a lot of linux contentions is basically founded upon making the distro more comfortable for devs or for home users...now I believe prioritizing home users is the way forward why? devs are more likely to work around issues on linux than a lot of home users and making distros more comfortable for devs seem counterintuitive if they want to maintain the devy tinkering nature because they have the skillset and toolset...they basically , in lay mans terms, don't want things to get easier...sysd would make things easier for home end users but MIGHT be nerve wracking for devs... there is no issue, let them stick to distros that caters solely for them and allow the other distros cater for other users

secondly, devs most likely won't pay devs, it's end users that have a high chance of doing that...you are not doing this for the money? then devs should stop asking for starbucks when users lay their complains...you can't offer solutions just for yourself when you feel like it and then ask l the world to foot your bills...

@AVLinux once said he preferred the tty booting option of AVL, me I don't, since I don't think it is beneficial to me, if I need to diagonize my PC, there are steps to take and enabling a tty boot is always an option, if not, just boot up and let me get working...

what did @AVLinux do, he made both options available since we would both like to use AVL, he did not lord his preference of tty boot, over those willing to use AVL...

now, I do not undermine dev work...I am trying to understand the reasoning behind moksha's devs decision to not ever transition to wayland due to supporting old chips, even cobol and fortan, despite how simple they may be, aren't widely used any longer, things are meant to phase out where there are options with better workflows...

why moksha devs? if AVL would have a moksha variant, I would use the moksha variant but the decision of moksha devs insinuates that I follow them till the end of the road even when wayland might become a far better option...

moksha accepts sysd but refuse wayland...

you see Linuxers throwing stones against distros who decide to mimick windows and macos GUI and workflows under non beneficial statements like Linux isn't windows or macos, so? I want my distro to look and feel like windows or macos without the telemetry and ram hogging, what's wrong with that?

If I want the distro I use to look like macos but have a windows workflow, I should be applauded like one who would want to go through the cmdline instead of a GUI...in the very least, there shouldn't be opposition or obstacles

if x11 want to remain on the scene, then they should fix the bugs not demanding an acceptance of the bugs in x11...

@ylee2130