How safe is duel-booting with modern windows if each os has its own drive?  [Solved]

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FullScale4Me
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Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:30 pm

Re: How safe is duel-booting with modern windows if each os has its own drive?

#11 Post by FullScale4Me »

CharlesV wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:06 pm +1 @DukeComposed Very well said!

An interesting side note about Windows .. it cannot always even handle *it's own* bootloader! For YEARS I have built machines that had RAID0 on twin ssd's, then put a hard drive in for an internal backup. Sometime early 2022 MS changed their update methodology and those machines started bricking... because windows would attempt to write the boot record to the first *drive* and would ignore the RAID volume, loosing "windows" in the process. SO a hands on was required to reconnect the dang proper boot sequence.

Most of these machines ran fine after that... for another year or two and then same thing happened again.
+1 @DukeComposed and @CharlesV

Two extra points about Windows and Dual Boot. On the PC setup with -

1) MBR partitioning: There is direct evidence that the bi-annual Windows Update overwrites the Grub2 code in the MBR. Grub needs to be reinstalled or a backup of the MBR restored to repair the PC.

2) GPT partitioning: There is direct evidence that the bi-annual Windows Update moves the Windows Boot Loader above the Grub2 entry in NVRam Boot Order in the UEFI firmware. A simple shift back in the firmware setup fixes this.
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DukeComposed
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Re: How safe is duel-booting with modern windows if each os has its own drive?

#12 Post by DukeComposed »

Green_Penguin wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 5:01 pm If that's true, having both systems on the same machine even with separate drives probably isn't the best fit for me.
The fact you keep mentioning putting installs on separate drives as though that would be a good safety precaution leads me to think you're paranoid about one operating system spilling into the other if they're on the same storage device, like trying to keep sugar and water in the same container. Where you keep the installs does not matter. You're going to have to switch between them, and at some point there is a non-zero chance one of those operating systems will break the bootloader, which is the special software thing you have to configure so that you can pick which OS you want when you power on the machine. It's the same problem whether those OSes are on different disks or on the same disk. You're not making things better by putting a second OS on a second drive when both OSes will end up depending on one single bootloader.

You might have better luck running Linux from a USB thumb drive, booting your PC off of the thumb drive when you want to use it and unplugging it when you don't. There are several threads about how to create such a thumb drive on this forum, and several more places online that can give you information about setting up something more generic, like Ventoy with a persistent partition to store data.

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DukeComposed
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Re: How safe is duel-booting with modern windows if each os has its own drive?

#13 Post by DukeComposed »

FullScale4Me wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 5:28 pm Two extra points about Windows and Dual Boot. On the PC setup with -

1) MBR partitioning: There is direct evidence that the bi-annual Windows Update overwrites the Grub2 code in the MBR. Grub needs to be reinstalled or a backup of the MBR restored to repair the PC.

2) GPT partitioning: There is direct evidence that the bi-annual Windows Update moves the Windows Boot Loader above the Grub2 entry in NVRam Boot Order in the UEFI firmware. A simple shift back in the firmware setup fixes this.
A good point to make: handcrafting your perfect, bespoke boot menu can take a lot of time and patience to get it right. But then restoring that bootloader when you need to do so is pretty quick. Most of the time fixing your bootloader is matter of running "sudo update-grub" and "sudo grub-install /dev/sda" and moving on with your life, or doing a little surgery with efibootmgr. It's not a difficult thing to do, especially when you've had a lot of experience fixing broken bootloaders.

But it's annoying in the same way that having to set all your clocks and watches forward or backward an hour twice a year is annoying. I don't consider this a stability problem. It's an availability issue, and I'm guessing that's one reason why no one runs dual-boot production servers. When you reboot the server, you really expect it to come back up in a few minutes. If it doesn't, it can be a serious problem to get someone to physically investigate what's wrong, and you are hard down until someone can get hands-on with the machine and repair it.

A personal computer, one you use every day and is in the same building where you eat and sleep, is a different matter. If it crashes or hangs, you can investigate it immediately. Honestly, having to fix GRUB a few times is not the reason I gave up dual-booting. I don't think anyone is expecting five 9s out of their old Dell Latitude or HP 420Z or whatever, and it would be foolish to expect great uptimes from consumer hardware. These machines are going to need to reboot once in a while.

But when they do, it sure is nice when they come back. Having to drop everything, find an ISO, boot it, chroot into your machine, and fix GRUB only takes a few minutes. But it's a hassle that people who never dual-boot rarely even think about doing.

Green_Penguin
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Re: How safe is duel-booting with modern windows if each os has its own drive?

#14 Post by Green_Penguin »

Thanks, you're right, my thinking was a little unclear. Basically, in metaphorical terms, I was thinking if they're on separate drives they can't "talk", and if they don't talk, they can't fight. But there can only be one switch at the junction, that controls whether the system goes down the windows track or the Linux track, even if those systems are on separate drives. The junction is the bootloader, and that's what the systems fight over, and in general it seems that windows is usually the one that starts that fight.

My big fear is actually the big reconfigure. Even on windows getting a system from stock to what I would consider accessible entails an annoying amount of setup. On Linux that's extra true. as long as it doesn't break to the point where I have to nuke and pave or reconfigure a bunch of stuff, that's fine. MXs iso snapshot tool is really helpful in that regard. Once it set up right, the freedom and peace are really nice though, I can actually feel myself being calmer working on this
System. Only real pain point is editing a big chunk of text like this by voice, it's pretty accurate, but it doesn't have select and say support like dragon, which means fixing the few mistakes is slower.

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DukeComposed
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Re: How safe is duel-booting with modern windows if each os has its own drive?

#15 Post by DukeComposed »

Green_Penguin wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 8:20 pm But there can only be one switch at the junction, that controls whether the system goes down the windows track or the Linux track, even if those systems are on separate drives. The junction is the bootloader, and that's what the systems fight over
This is a perfect analogy. Your operating system controls your machine and that control while the OS is running is absolute. That means that whichever given train you happen to be riding has the power to erase the other train and its tracks out of existence if you want it to do that. But the junction point is by far the most contentious piece of a dual-boot system. It's not hard to fix, but you need to be prepared to fix it if and when either of the trains decides the track was made for it and it alone.

Green_Penguin wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 8:20 pm My big fear is actually the big reconfigure. Even on windows getting a system from stock to what I would consider accessible entails an annoying amount of setup. On Linux that's extra true. as long as it doesn't break to the point where I have to nuke and pave or reconfigure a bunch of stuff, that's fine. MXs iso snapshot tool is really helpful in that regard.
You might also find virtual machines useful. You can build a Windows VM in Linux, or you can build a Linux VM in Windows, or both. You're running one OS on the machine, but you can start the VM and log into it pretty much the same as you'd remote into a real server with something like RDP or VNC. VMs aren't going to fight over their host's bootloader the way a full install on the hardware would. They're a good way to try before you buy, and in may case they're a good way to keep Windows around to run Progress Quest without needing dedicated hardware. Your two real challenges here are (a) figuring out a setup process you can rely on to give you the system look and feel you want and (b) finding the right way to compartmentalize your operating systems. That could mean using MX Snapshot, or having a library of Clonezilla images, or a thumb drive, or something else entirely.

Many years ago, you'll soon see how many it was, I was a Windows admin. I ended up responsible for a dozen old, unused Windows 95 machines in a computer lab. I'd found a Windows NT Workstation CD-ROM hidden in the back of the software shelf in the server room and spent a summer figuring out how to build an unattended network install process for NT4 that began with a magic floppy diskette I made to (a) boot the machine, (b) erase the partition table, (c) make a new FAT32 partition and copy some setup files to it, (d) restart the machine, and (e) run the setup files to erase and reformat the disk to NTFS and put Windows on it from a network share.

This wasn't a dual-booting scenario, but one where I had a floppy disk that needed to do two different things at two different times. This required booting off of a writable medium that could maintain enough state to know "Am I on stage 1 or am I on stage 2?" as well as being smart enough to reconfigure itself from stage 1 to stage 2, or from stage 2 back to stage 1, so that the disk could reset itself for the next use.

If anything went wrong, the worst that would happen is that the boot process would fail. Typically, the NT install would just loop back to stage 1 and start over again -- annoying, but not a major issue that required repair. And if the floppy disk failed entirely, I had backups of the disk image and could simply write it to a new disk and keep on reinstalling the OS. I got it down to a simple procedure: Grab a stack of the custom unattended install floppies and go to the lab. Insert floppies into machines. Reboot. Walk away. Come back once files were copying across the network and eject the floppies so the boot-erase-install stages wouldn't keep looping forever. Move onto the next machines.

It took nearly a year of research before I could get started, then followed by an entire summer of concerted effort at work: working on it when I had spare time in the office, evenings, on weekends. It took a long, long time to find a reliable, repeatable setup process but once I had it, I could customize it fairly easily (Here's a wallpaper with the company logo on it! Let's put NetTime on the lab machines so their clocks are synced!) and, most importantly, I could reinstall the entire lab -- 12 or 13 Pentium 100MHz IBM boxes -- in a few hours. And those hours were mostly just waiting for files to copy. As I said: insert floppy, reboot, walk away. It was a ton of work, angering and aggravating at times, but a satisfying project I consider important enough in my career to still have a backup of that floppy disk. You never know.

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