Pianoteq forced me to abandon Enlightenment

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Aceediq
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Re: Pianoteq forced me to abandon Enlightenment

#21 Post by Aceediq »

Be OK wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 6:21 am It works but i read that linux is experimental.

And what's wrong with an app being experimental? Or do you want to say that all apps on Linux are out of experimental stages?

And of what benefit is it, that an app on Linux, fully developed, not experimental, but can't stand on equal toes with an app that is experimental on Linux, fully developed on Windows/Mac?

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AVLinux
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Re: Pianoteq forced me to abandon Enlightenment

#22 Post by AVLinux »

I would say that Reaper is simply covering it's butt saying it's 'experimental', I'm sure like many projects who are testing crossports into Linux they don't have the manpower for the degree of support for Linux that they give to Win/Mac. Speaking personally free of OS politics Reaper works very well on Linux and is probably the best option for MIDI workflows in a professional sense, Ardour still has a long way to go with MIDI support. I personally also use U-he, AudioThing and AudioDamage Audio Plugins pretty much daily, they all say they provide 'less support' for Linux but in my experience regardless of what they say they work perfectly in AVL. Experimental is a pretty vague term in software..

Aceediq
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Re: Pianoteq forced me to abandon Enlightenment

#23 Post by Aceediq »

AVLinux wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 12:17 pm I would say that Reaper is simply covering it's butt saying it's 'experimental', I'm sure like many projects who are testing crossports into Linux they don't have the manpower for the degree of support for Linux that they give to Win/Mac. Speaking personally free of OS politics Reaper works very well on Linux and is probably the best option for MIDI workflows in a professional sense, Ardour still has a long way to go with MIDI support. I personally also use U-he, AudioThing and AudioDamage Audio Plugins pretty much daily, they all say they provide 'less support' for Linux but in my experience regardless of what they say they work perfectly in AVL. Experimental is a pretty vague term in software..
yeah, your informed choices based on personal experience is what makes AVL different...

the other user's excuses is majorly what's obtainable in the Linux ecosystem...being pragmatic is thrown out the window over ideologies which makes life difficult for certain Linux users...

the painful thing is that most know that they can't back up their ideologies with 'Linux-only' pragmatic effort and they still force their choices down everyone's throats...

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dreamer
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Re: Pianoteq forced me to abandon Enlightenment

#24 Post by dreamer »

Aceediq wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2024 3:50 am yeah, your informed choices based on personal experience is what makes AVL different...

the other user's excuses is majorly what's obtainable in the Linux ecosystem...being pragmatic is thrown out the window over ideologies which makes life difficult for certain Linux users...

the painful thing is that most know that they can't back up their ideologies with 'Linux-only' pragmatic effort and they still force their choices down everyone's throats...
The beauty of FOSS is that you are allowed to change everything and anything. In this respect it’s better than proprietary solutions. For professional musicians proprietary platforms might be better. The cost may not be a huge deal if there are paying clients. In essence Linux is the free choice where you are in charge. Choice between FOSS and proprietary is also a good thing.
Note to self and others: SysVinit is a good option. However if you run into problems try with systemd first. This applies to AppImages, Flatpaks, GitHub packages and even some Debian packages.

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AVLinux
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Re: Pianoteq forced me to abandon Enlightenment

#25 Post by AVLinux »

dreamer wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2024 2:36 pm [The beauty of FOSS is that you are allowed to change everything and anything. In this respect it’s better than proprietary solutions. For professional musicians proprietary platforms might be better. The cost may not be a huge deal if there are paying clients. In essence Linux is the free choice where you are in charge. Choice between FOSS and proprietary is also a good thing.
I do take that very seriously, like everyone I have my own opinions and in my working Studio I use Linux FOSS and proprietary software together, even with occasional commercial Windows stuff running in Wine/yabridge. AV Linux comes with a 1-click "Demo Software Remover" menu item to remove all non-FOSS applications and demos. My mandate is to provide as many real-world options as possible and let the User make their own choices.
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b3ta
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Re: Pianoteq forced me to abandon Enlightenment

#26 Post by b3ta »

Since my post which started this thread I have run into multi-user issues as well as issues when using XFCE which were not there in the previous AV Linux release. This was on our Netflix laptop, but now I have to install the latest on my work laptop. Getting Wi-Fi to work at all required installing NetworkManager and still ends up with many instances of the applet in the XFCE task bar.

I am happy to assist in sorting these out as much as I am able, given my use case, which is explained below.

This is my dilemma: our hardware is fine to run all of this for years longer, but we cannot afford to upgrade it to what Microsoft requires for Windows 11.

What drew me to AV Linux originally are the following points:
  • That the integrations are all done, which is an enormous amount of work (thank you, Glen!).
  • The focus on performance, as that impacts live work, of which I do a lot (see below).
  • That it used (now sadly past tense) XFCE by default, which can easily be tweaked to forego eye candy, so as not to impact live use.
My plan was to run it for some time as my daily driver on my laptop before I would go to the next step — full live use, covering the following:
  • Running our DMX lighting controller using QLC+.
  • Running Worshipsong Band under Bottles) to control lyrics display in sync with bi-directional multi-track audio (simultaneous playback & recording) using Ardour and connecting to our sound desk. This allows individual multi-track stems to be mixed by our engineer live, using the desk's physical control surface instead of a mouse on a screen. The flow of a song is controlled from the stage by the band leader over Wi-Fi, utilising a tablet, and all band members can see both what they're playing now as well as what is queued up. Click and cues also stay in sync as live changes to a song's geography are made.
  • Running four separate monitor outputs, some of which are duplicated physically as well, i.e., up to four separate images going to lots of screens. Eventually I'd like to run them with Multicast over Wi-Fi, with a Raspberry Pi at each projector or screen.
  • Running OBS Studio to handle the following:
    • Live video and audio input from a camera via an external AV capture card.
    • Present a virtual camera (with audio) to Zoom for live streaming.
    • Applying pre-set scenes to any of the four screen outputs as well as to the virtual camera. With the pre-set scenes this enables things like picture in picture to any of the OBS Studio outputs. It also makes possible displays for those who don't have direct line-of-sight for events when we have to use over-flow seating or even outside projection for evening events: one scene would show lyrics, another only the speaker, another PowerPoint slides with the speaker small in the top right, etc.
For large events all of the above will be happening simultaneously.

In addition, the machine will have multiple users with different levels of access, most of whom will have any changes rolled back when they log out. Then their next session will present as the previous one did, including open windows and their screen positions, since the users have static roles they need to fulfil.

This is not a general purpose computer, but is an AV controller for critical live use. Enterprise level management will be exercised over the whole lot, given the potential for disaster when lack of knowledge is exercised.

I trust you can see that eye candy is the last thing I want, and the live performance hits imposed by Enlightenment's cool looks are a waste for me. What I need is raw performance of the programs that I am running in the moment.

Live production doesn't have the luxury of multiple takes or of it being OK for rendering to take two minutes longer — everything has to work at the same time, all the time. Of these, lights and audio are the most crucial. A single dip in the lights or a glitch in the sound will be remembered, while most people won't even notice 10 dropped video frames per minute as long as the sound and lights are OK.

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AVLinux
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Re: Pianoteq forced me to abandon Enlightenment

#27 Post by AVLinux »

Hi @b3ta

Since I've never installed XFCE4 an AVL 23.X-based system I really can't tell you what may have gone wrong, a key difference is that Enlightenment uses "Connman" and XFCE4 uses Network Manager, When you installed Gnome Network Manager did you remove Connman and it's related Packages? They shouldn't interfere with each other but who knows..

I won't be going back to XFCE4 and I've actually uninstalled KDE Plasma from my development system because I'm just not sold on it, or at least not sold on it installed alongside Enlightenment. I wonder for your needs simply installing MX's own XFCE4 ISO, installing a Liquorix Kernel and adding a "threadirqs" boot parameter wouldn't get you most of the way to where you want to get to? I could help you with a few remaining minor performance tweaks if needed. It appears your grocery list above is using stuff that isn't in AV Linux anyway, if you wanted some of the AV Linux custom packaging then it is all archived with every release here:

http://bandshed.net/packages/AVL-MXe-23 ... _Packages/

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kimyo
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Re: Pianoteq forced me to abandon Enlightenment

#28 Post by kimyo »

>> I wonder for your needs simply installing MX's own XFCE4 ISO, installing a Liquorix Kernel and adding a "threadirqs" boot parameter wouldn't get you most of the way to where you want to get to? I could help you with a few remaining minor performance tweaks if needed.

like b3ta, my focus is on older computers. i have several laptops which are 3-4 years old, not speedy but quite capable. using w10 is not feasible, due to the latency/dpc issues.

i've installed av linux on a couple, and have installed xfce. their performance is improved from the standard mx package, a lagging audio issue has been resolved.

but there are several problems, including a lock on the package manager in xfce, i have to log into enlightenment if i want to install / update.

i will now go back to mxlinux and use the liquorix kernel / do the threadirqs boot parameter.

thank you for the package list, it is very helpful.

if you have any other tweaks, especially those for older systems please do consider posting them.

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DukeComposed
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Re: Pianoteq forced me to abandon Enlightenment

#29 Post by DukeComposed »

kimyo wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:34 am i have several laptops which are 3-4 years old, not speedy but quite capable. using w10 is not feasible, due to the latency/dpc issues.

if you have any other tweaks, especially those for older systems please do consider posting them.
With all due respect, a 4-year-old system is not an "older system". Any machine made in the last 10 years or so should be capable of running Windows 10, and I run MX Linux on a laptop that's probably 12 years old without issue. I own a Thinkpad that's older still and it runs Windows 10 equally well, though I don't use it very much for gaming. Speed these days, insofar as an abstract thing can be quantified, is largely dictated by hard drive latency. A laptop made in the last 4 years is going to be fine with respect to DRAM CAS and CPU clock speed, all you really need to do is make sure you install an SSD hard drive and the thing should run for 5-10 years without too much trouble.

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kimyo
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Re: Pianoteq forced me to abandon Enlightenment

#30 Post by kimyo »

i have at least three 'not older' systems which will not run audio on w10 or w11 without crackles. multiple audio interfaces, fully updated, i am certainly not alone in finding w10 and a 4 year old laptop non-functional for audio purposes.

laptops on the top half of this list will be problematic:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/DPC-Laten ... 376.0.html

yes, i have ssd's installed. yes, the systems will last just fine for another 5-10 years. NO, they DO NOT provide crackle-free audio, even at 256 samples/ 44.1 or 48k.

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