Yes, about all that old Windows 10 hardware.....

[artytux]

I've stayed with Intel for most of my computers few exceptions and the Intel Gen 14 with Intel ARC graphics is well supported in the Linux later kernels ( depends on Distro ) Inc Liquorix offering and phow does it go off, reduced cpu use from 65% ave down to 10 to 15% ave use spread over the many cpu's , it depends on who makes a Linux graphics compatible, that there is problem with Nvidia on any help forum is no surprizer.

[DukeComposed]

Here's the sort of scenario that would be necessary for a mass migration to Linux:
1. Microsoft issues an update that causes wiespread data loss in both the consumer and enterprise sectors with the only option being reinstall / restore from backups

Yeahhh, that's already happened. lol https://web.archive.org/web/20230324191 ... les-files/

There's also been... MANY massive incidents with Windows 11 as well. But Linux IS gaining marketshare fast, even putting aside ChromeOS (and we should put it aside, because let's be honest, it's only use is to lock down enterprise and school computers). 4% is definitely nothing to sneeze at. I know this is a learned pessimism but I really wish you guys weren't so gloomy about this.

I don't consider myself gloomy about it, just pragmatic. I don't own stock in Linux, whether it gains or loses marketshare doesn't really impact me on an individual level. I don't even consider it all that fantastic of a platform, to be honest. But it works, and it's configurable, and it has a better X11 situation than the BSDs do, so I use it.

I think the important thing to consider here is that Microsoft has never sought to hurt their users. Even through all the misadventures of Windows Vista, and the Windows 8 swipe-heavy UI with the tiles and the charms bar, the company understands that happy users equals more revenue. Sometimes they guess correctly, sometimes they guess incorrectly. The push to Windows 11 and a new TPM minimum is predicated on a mutual desire to help OEM sales, and to make computing, overall, safer for 85% of the computing population. However you feel about a private corporation controlling the world's most popular PC operating system, wanting a more secure platform is a good call.

When you're a multibillion-dollar multinational corporation you have to think long-term, and you have to play the long game. With a billion users and a 30-year legacy of backwards compatibility, you can't do the Google thing of saying "We're just not going to support this after 18 months from now." There are sunsetting schedules and extended support contracts with big, three-letter agencies. It's a whole different ball game.

So yes, Microsoft has had bugs, major and minor, but nothing that could be considered reign-ending. They work to fix them when they occur, and they primarily work to prevent them entirely. The question will never be "Is Windows broken or dangerous?" It will be "Is Windows being exploited by its management to harm users?" This can mean harming them by means of removing privacy options, increasing advertisements, and making superfluous administrative decisions to restrict a user's right to control his or her hardware or online experience. To my first point, this kind of harm may not not be seen by the company as harmful, and it is that disconnect that can be an issue.

Imagine a world where Windows requires you to run a UEFI-only install. Imagine a world where Windows requires your password to always contain a capital letter 'G'. Imagine a world where your Edge browser must always go to msn.com as its start page. Some of these are ridiculous demands, but as a company Microsoft can make them. The company wants profit and marketshare. It can gain these things by making a product that consumers want. However, it can also make profit by forcing a copy of, say, Candy Crush onto every install. The real problem is that you, as a consumer, don't control the decisions that directly impact you and your computer when you run Windows on it.

People won't desert Windows because it ends up corrupting their data or ruining their machines. They'll abandon it when they realize they want to regain control of the hardware they paid for.

[Arnox]

You think most people care?

Well, judging from the 4% and rising marketshare, and also how many disparaging comments about Windows I see in every single tech sphere I'm in, yes. I do.

I've heard this "Windows has never been this bad" style rhetoric since the first time I heard of the Year of the Linux Desktop.

True, but this time, I got some actual ammo to back that up with. Is 2024 going to be the year of the Linux desktop? Who the hell knows. But do I believe Linux is at least steadily gaining marketshare? Oh yeah.

at least not enough to make the (often gargantuan) effort to jump ship.

It really isn't that much. Is it an effort? Yes. Will some employers not be able to switch even if they wanted to? Yep. But gargantuan? Let's be real here. Linux has never been easier to use. And in some ways, it's even easier than Windows.

they'll just jump to Windows 11

And get smacked with another load of xxxxxxx from Microsoft in the process. Sooner or later, even the most ardent Windows fan is going to have to ask themselves what I asked myself, "Is this really worth putting up with anymore?" And the answer is going to be, "No."

I doubt there will be a massive hoard of new Linux users (as in, jumping from 1% to 10%) but sure, some people will move to Linux. It is worth having realistic expectations based on real data.

Sure, but it doesn't need to be a massive hoard. Right now, Windows' marketshare is steadily leaking over to Linux. And this leak will not be something easily stopped now.

[Arnox]

I think the important thing to consider here is that Microsoft has never sought to hurt their users.

Errrr... You should define, "hurt." I can think of plenty of times in Windows 10 and 11's history where Microsoft has been outright greedy and incompetent.

The push to Windows 11 and a new TPM minimum is predicated on a mutual desire to help OEM sales, and to make computing, overall, safer for 85% of the computing population.

Except user safety is not something Microsoft should decide and force upon its users. They can have solid defaults, yes, but outright forcing TPM was a very bad idea, even if the move might maybe possibly have been born of good will.

When you're a multibillion-dollar multinational corporation you have to think long-term, and you have to play the long game. With a billion users and a 30-year legacy of backwards compatibility, you can't do the Google thing of saying "We're just not going to support this after 18 months from now." There are sunsetting schedules and extended support contracts with big, three-letter agencies. It's a whole different ball game.

Microsoft handled this by simply having fixed major releases of its OS. It didn't matter so much, for example, when Vista released because XP was still right there and fully supported, and was for years. If an agency/company wasn't ready to switch, they didn't need to. They could always stick to the last fixed major release and be golden until they're finally ready to switch. Then, in a brilliant genius move (/s), Microsoft decided to move everything to a rolling release cycle. With the LTS versions of Windows only for the agencies/corporate elites apparently. The mere consumer plebs could now only buy the shitty spyware version of Windows. And even for the LTS versions of Windows, they cut down their support dates so even the VL customers were forced to switch to a new version sooner rather than later. So now, backwards compatibility is even more of an issue because, ironically, Microsoft effectively blocked staying on older releases of Windows from their VL customers.

The question will never be "Is Windows broken or dangerous?" It will be "Is Windows being exploited by its management to harm users?"

Yep, it is, without a doubt. Before 10, not so much, but now, yes. Lines are now being crossed that were never ever crossed before.

[AK-47]

Well, judging from the 4% and rising marketshare, and also how many disparaging comments about Windows I see in every single tech sphere I'm in, yes. I do.

"tech sphere" - this is what I mean, you're considering its usage amongst tech-heads like you and I. Not ordinary average users, i.e. the majority using these devices.

True, but this time, I got some actual ammo to back that up with. Is 2024 going to be the year of the Linux desktop? Who the hell knows. But do I believe Linux is at least steadily gaining marketshare? Oh yeah.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/03 ... -desktops/
There is a graph that explains what's going on, and at one point it went beyond 4% and dropped down. And then you have the line representing Windows which is steadily growing in share, but it's macOS that's taking the hit.

It really isn't that much. Is it an effort? Yes. Will some employers not be able to switch even if they wanted to? Yep. But gargantuan? Let's be real here. Linux has never been easier to use. And in some ways, it's even easier than Windows.

Q: How do I scan documents?
A: Run this bunch of commands with strange names in a terminal.
Q: It didn't work.
A: You used "fo", not "foo".
...
Q: How do I install this cool calculator program I found on the internet?
A: It will break your system because it's a foreign package not on the official OS distribution repository.
...
And then there's the issue of people installing operating systems. Most people just want to use the device, and it happens to come with Windows, which can do everything they want it to.

This may not be gargantuan for people like you or me, but most people aren't you or me.

Sure, but it doesn't need to be a massive hoard. Right now, Windows' marketshare is steadily leaking over to Linux. And this leak will not be something easily stopped now.

See the graph on Ars Technica, doesn't seem like Windows share is going down or leaking.

[MrSteve]

i believe that when Microsoft force Windows as a Service (WaaS) just like they have done with Microsoft office then you will see people start to jump ship to Linux.
i also dont think that WaaS is far away ..

[needmorebrains]

I really do believe that @MrSteve . Windows 10 just got a new update today just to remind you if you have an EOL W10 version, you need (will) updates to get you ready. Or, is W11 right for you? And do you have copilot? Why is Edge not your default browser, fix that "problem" right now (or not, we'll bug you later...) please stop the madness!

[needmorebrains]

Here's the sort of scenario that would be necessary for a mass migration to Linux:
1. Microsoft issues an update that causes wiespread data loss in both the consumer and enterprise sectors with the only option being reinstall / restore from backups

Yeahhh, that's already happened. lol https://web.archive.org/web/20230324191 ... les-files/

There's also been... MANY massive incidents with Windows 11 as well. But Linux IS gaining marketshare fast, even putting aside ChromeOS (and we should put it aside, because let's be honest, it's only use is to lock down enterprise and school computers). 4% is definitely nothing to sneeze at. I know this is a learned pessimism but I really wish you guys weren't so gloomy about this.

I don't consider myself gloomy about it, just pragmatic. I don't own stock in Linux, whether it gains or loses marketshare doesn't really impact me on an individual level. I don't even consider it all that fantastic of a platform, to be honest. But it works, and it's configurable, and it has a better X11 situation than the BSDs do, so I use it.

I think the important thing to consider here is that Microsoft has never sought to hurt their users. Even through all the misadventures of Windows Vista, and the Windows 8 swipe-heavy UI with the tiles and the charms bar, the company understands that happy users equals more revenue. Sometimes they guess correctly, sometimes they guess incorrectly. The push to Windows 11 and a new TPM minimum is predicated on a mutual desire to help OEM sales, and to make computing, overall, safer for 85% of the computing population. However you feel about a private corporation controlling the world's most popular PC operating system, wanting a more secure platform is a good call.

When you're a multibillion-dollar multinational corporation you have to think long-term, and you have to play the long game. With a billion users and a 30-year legacy of backwards compatibility, you can't do the Google thing of saying "We're just not going to support this after 18 months from now." There are sunsetting schedules and extended support contracts with big, three-letter agencies. It's a whole different ball game.

So yes, Microsoft has had bugs, major and minor, but nothing that could be considered reign-ending. They work to fix them when they occur, and they primarily work to prevent them entirely. The question will never be "Is Windows broken or dangerous?" It will be "Is Windows being exploited by its management to harm users?" This can mean harming them by means of removing privacy options, increasing advertisements, and making superfluous administrative decisions to restrict a user's right to control his or her hardware or online experience. To my first point, this kind of harm may not not be seen by the company as harmful, and it is that disconnect that can be an issue.

Imagine a world where Windows requires you to run a UEFI-only install. Imagine a world where Windows requires your password to always contain a capital letter 'G'. Imagine a world where your Edge browser must always go to msn.com as its start page. Some of these are ridiculous demands, but as a company Microsoft can make them. The company wants profit and marketshare. It can gain these things by making a product that consumers want. However, it can also make profit by forcing a copy of, say, Candy Crush onto every install. The real problem is that you, as a consumer, don't control the decisions that directly impact you and your computer when you run Windows on it.

People won't desert Windows because it ends up corrupting their data or ruining their machines. They'll abandon it when they realize they want to regain control of the hardware they paid for.

@DukeComposed I just wanted to say your post is awesome and well thought out. It made me think of the numerous forums I have worked and read over the years, as well as here on MX/AntiX where someone ask for help (sometimes the wrong question, with no system data) then we try so hard to help them (many weeks or days), then they get upset and give up. We live in a world where only about 15% of my age group can actually read, comprehend, and do their own auto repairs (I'm in my 60's now) and need I say that computer experience starts in 1979. And for most of my life, I couldn't afford a computer, I just got to use them at work.

[Arnox]

"tech sphere" - this is what I mean, you're considering its usage amongst tech-heads like you and I. Not ordinary average users, i.e. the majority using these devices.

And even in non-tech spheres, I see rage. And as people are gradually forced to update to WIndows 11 at least, that rage is only going to grow.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/03 ... -desktops/
There is a graph that explains what's going on, and at one point it went beyond 4% and dropped down. And then you have the line representing Windows which is steadily growing in share, but it's macOS that's taking the hit.

Fine. Even if it's only 3.8%, that's still a huge amount of growth.

Q: How do I scan documents?
A: Run this bunch of commands with strange names in a terminal.
Q: It didn't work.
A: You used "fo", not "foo".

What are you talking about? You don't have to run any commands. https://help.brother-usa.com/app/answer ... an---linux That was the first result when I searched it.

Q: How do I install this cool calculator program I found on the internet?
A: It will break your system because it's a foreign package not on the official OS distribution repository.

Not necessarily, but yes, you're right. It is generally a bad idea. With that said, many popular programs have a Flatpak version that can be easily downloaded and installed, or at very least a .deb install package. For those that do not, it's very likely some proprietary crap that is still stuck on Windows like the Adobe suite. Again, I never said transitioning to Linux was easy, but it's not a gargantuan task.

which can do everything they want it to.

Except allow users to own and control parts of the OS and stopping the flow of unwanted updates and advertising without downloading and installing third-party programs. And even those third-party programs need to be updated in order to be able to counter the latest nonsense Microsoft has pushed out this month. I swear, it seems Microsoft can't go a single freaking month without screwing with Windows in some unwanted way.

[artytux]

Except allow users to own and control parts of the OS and stopping the flow of unwanted updates and advertising without downloading and installing third-party programs. And even those third-party programs need to be updated in order to be able to counter the latest nonsense Microsoft has pushed out this month. I swear, it seems Microsoft can't go a single freaking month without screwing with Windows in some unwanted way.

Would or could that be too many cooks in the kitchen and no higher up to keep an eye on what the collective is doing ?