Yes, about all that old Windows 10 hardware.....

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FullScale4Me
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Re: Yes, about all that old Windows 10 hardware.....

#11 Post by FullScale4Me »

needmorebrains wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 4:51 pm Are the members of the team here ready to make an educated guess as to what people will do (those with no experience in Linux) when the EOL runs out on Windows 10? I just read a post from Elon about his experience with Windows 11 and he was none too pleased!
Some IT blog writers predicted a big surge of new Linux users with the MS announcement of the end of support for Windows 8.1 (EOL January 10, 2023). I don't recall any big uptick here. We saw much more of a temporary increase when Debian's xx.1 revision hit us for MX 21 and MX 23.

A memory from my Big Box semi-retirement job: Period - Windows 8 finally hits our retail world (2015). A grumpy old guy (younger than me!) comes in with a new laptop in a box and says: "Wipe this Windows 8 virus off my PC and put a real OS on it!" He had a Windows XP retail box in his other hand.
Last edited by FullScale4Me on Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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needmorebrains
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Re: Yes, about all that old Windows 10 hardware.....

#12 Post by needmorebrains »

GuiGuy wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:40 pm @needmorebrains
What is supposed to be wrong with W11?
I have tried it and like it better than W10.
No judgement here. I am on a W11 machine right now, as my old hardware is physically too broken to work with anything. I don't really have any issues with it so far. Just a cheap HP from Walmart. I did have to change the ram to 8GB and the hard drive from 250 to 500GB, and then re-load the OS, but it works good.

Now my wife has a "will not run Windows 11" laptop that is on 10, and the mechanical hard drive is terribly sssllloooowww. So it will be our next MX machine.

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AK-47
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Re: Yes, about all that old Windows 10 hardware.....

#13 Post by AK-47 »

FullScale4Me wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:54 pmSome IT blog writers predicted a big surge of new Linux users with the MS announcement of the end of support for Windows 7/8 (and Vista). I don't recall any big uptick here. We saw much more of a temporary increase when Debian's xx.1 revision hit us for MX 21 and MX 23.
To summarise:
Windows Vista introduction - 2007 will be the Year of the Linux Desktop.
Windows 2000 EOL - 2010 will be the Year of the Linux Desktop.
Windows 8 introduction - 2012 will be the Year of the Linux desktop.
Windows XP EOL v2 - 2014 will be the Year of the Linux Desktop.
Windows 10 introduction - 2015 will be the Year of the Linux Desktop.
Not enough cared about Windows Vista for 2017 to be the Year of the Linux Desktop.
Windows 7 EOL - 2020 will be the Year of the Linux Desktop.
Windows 11 introduction - 2021 will be the Year of the Linux Desktop.

although, technically we aren't far off considering how many people use Android.

Windows 10 EOL - 2025 will be the Year of the Linux Desktop.

needmorebrains
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Re: Yes, about all that old Windows 10 hardware.....

#14 Post by needmorebrains »

j2mcgreg wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:03 pm @CharlesV wrote:
The "bad" in Windows 11 is getting worse imo. Ads, telemetry, CoPilot and the forced updates are all too much ( again - imo) and coupled with the mess 'that is windows' already its too much ...
I agree. I did battle with one of my cousin's Win 11 laptop this weekend. When I received it on Saturday, it was taking twelve minutes (I timed it) to get to a working desktop (no more spinning blue circles) and when I returned it to her this afternoon I had that down to ninety seconds. I cleaned a whole bunch of crud out of it Saturday night, then it updated this morning and I had to do another cleaning. Don't get me started on what a hot mess the new, improved Outlook is.
As a added note, when I got my new W11 laptop, it had a slew of updates from Intel (UEFI Stuff) and SGX (Secure Containers) that were from Intel and not MS. I found out when the computer first started they (HP) loaded W11 S. So I had to remove the lock on S, then reboot into W11 (the real system), then grab and install all the stuff from Intel just to get the hardware "aware" of the environment. Then W11 started crashing (BSOD-SGX) so new W11 (MS) iso, then re-partition, install, then Intel, then MS, then on day two of the work, I now have a working W11 machine! Boots in 10 Seconds (or so).

Also, noticed on last Windows Update (I checked manually) three days ago, after just starting the device, a message from MS update that they were currently in the system updating "something?" and could I please check for updates again in a few minutes! I had just turned the machine on, and straight into update (12 seconds tops)! WOW!

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artytux
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Re: Yes, about all that old Windows 10 hardware.....

#15 Post by artytux »

This new computer got two ssd 512 drives one Win11 other MXL23.2 had a very quick look at a windows install 1st time in nearly 15 years dammit could not find the menus or anything at first, took a while, they changed the GUI look so much, I've yet to do updates on Win11 meh, MXL 23.2 running good that's what matters.

The reason I hear often about using Linux is " Nah I'm not that good at computers anyway I surf the web and play games (casino type games)"

So they don't do anything the least creative or productive or meaningful and that is their choice I can respect their wishes and leave them and and their computers use to them.

I'm just guessing OK ( probably wrong ) . . .
It's a fear gathered from wrong information about the complexity of using Linux, afterall Windows makes it easy it is on the computer when bought it then at home connect modem click the start button, and (as stated earlier) updates are done maybe one or two clicks sit back and let them (Win and the team) do everything because they know computing better than the customer.

That fear is similar to going into the water early in the morning go in feet then calves then knees or dive straight in and find and find out gee um this is really good.

Getting people past that fear of Linux is not something that will happen as long as humans have thumbs.

My 20c worth

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GuiGuy
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Re: Yes, about all that old Windows 10 hardware.....

#16 Post by GuiGuy »

W11 and W10 are OK if you install Firefox, Libreoffice and SeamonkeyMail. And refuse all Microsoft's "offers".

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DukeComposed
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Re: Yes, about all that old Windows 10 hardware.....

#17 Post by DukeComposed »

CharlesV wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:24 pm I have to agree with AK-47. Many people will just move to Win11 and 'be done with it'.

There are a lot of machines that cannot run win11 because of its requirements, and it is truly sad as most of that hardware is excellent stuff and will run Linux well.

The "bad" in Windows 11 is getting worse imo. Ads, telemetry, CoPilot and the forced updates are all too much ( again - imo) and coupled with the mess 'that is windows' already its too much ...
Every time a new version of Windows is released, the intransigents will complain, often loudly, that they'll never move. The more significant the changes in the next version, the louder they complain. "I will never switch from Windows XP to Windows Vista" was a common refrain, for years.

What I've noticed though, and this ties into your point about Windows 11, is that the changes are getting worse and the hardware is getting better. Windows 11 will be more advertisement-driven and contain more always-on telemetry. Meanwhile, almost any machine built in the last ten years can with the presence -- or addition -- of an SSD hard drive run a wide variety of middle-weight software without a hitch, indefinitely.

I keep wondering when I'm going to replace my last Windows machine. I bought it at the end of 2014 and it just keeps running. It won't win any beauty contests and it probably won't run the latest AAA games, but I can unplug it once a year, blow the dust out of it with a few sprays of compressed air, and plug it back in. It just keeps running. It's not incredibly fast but it runs fast enough for day-to-day tasks like browsing, text-editing, solitaire, and playing music and cat videos. We've reached the point in home computing where your processor is less important to your computing experience than your network connection is.

People, in general, don't upgrade their copies of Windows. Their copies of Windows get upgraded for them, and there was a big push by Microsoft in 2015 to upgrade any old version of Windows to Windows 10 in that first year of its availability. That free upgrade offer was only supposed to last for one year but they quietly continued it until PC manufacturers complained. To many people, and to OEMs, a new Windows release means buying a new machine. That's how OEMs make their money. If Windows can be upgraded for free indefinitely, the motivation to buy another PC goes away, which hurts their bottom line.

So as I read the tea leaves, this is a fairly unique situation. Microsoft has another unpopular product that is growing increasingly less popular over time. They are going to have to, again, push another free upgrade amnesty period for Windows 10 users, which will, again, upset manufacturers. And PC reliability has finally gotten to the point where you don't have to keep buying new machines every few years because they keep breaking or getting obsoleted by something twice as fast.

Eventually, people will not be able to upgrade to the next version of Windows for free. Either they'll need to pay for the upgrade or their hardware won't support it. And I think there are more people who will be in that situation than there were in the big Windows 8 "broken conveyance" era. Do I expect all of those abandoned users will convert? No, of course not. Most will give up and buy a new machine as they've been conditioned to do. Some will choose Apple hardware and end up on a different planned obsolescence cycle. But for the rest? They still have a chance.
Last edited by DukeComposed on Mon Mar 04, 2024 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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CharlesV
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Re: Yes, about all that old Windows 10 hardware.....

#18 Post by CharlesV »

I think you have a great take on this there, and are probably pretty close to what will happen.

I have been a developer of windows apps since .. mmm.. around 1990? ( win 3.1 ;-) Having been through every cycle, every upgrade, and every MS dev license and toolkit they put out. Some where back around 2010 I became unhappy with the message that MS continued to push out, and when they "abandoned their devs" ( my opinion.) that was it for me.

And while I seriously like(d) Win 10, The writing was on the wall and my Linux hunt truly began. I had played with Linux since around 1994ish and nothing was able to do anything I wanted / needed with one notable exception - Mepis. And I only have a small amount of time on it.

It has been a VERY long road to be able to run Linux as my daily driver, but having a MAC and supporting around 200 machines ( all windows ), left me with a serious case of 'there HAS to be something better than this'.. and I kept trying. FINALLY ... MX Linux!

The point to my 'not enough coffee yet' ramble ... I think it takes three things to really turn people to Linux:
1) having *enough* of the other guys,
2) having enough ability too do. (This is growing imo !)
3) As you point out - more online use and less 'have to have that app' use .
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Re: Yes, about all that old Windows 10 hardware.....

#19 Post by DukeComposed »

CharlesV wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 11:36 am I have been a developer of windows apps since .. mmm.. around 1990? ( win 3.1 ;-) Having been through every cycle, every upgrade, and every MS dev license and toolkit they put out.
I taught myself win32 assembly programming in 2020 during the lockdown. Prior to that my best experience writing Windows software was picking up a "Windows 95 Programming for Dummies" book at a Waldenbooks in college and never being able to comprehend or complete one of the very low-numbered chapters. Fortunately, I discovered Perl and Perl exists on just about every operating system. To this day I'm not really sure what a tchar is or how it's different from a wchar.
The point to my 'not enough coffee yet' ramble ... I think it takes three things to really turn people to Linux:
1) having *enough* of the other guys,
2) having enough ability too do. (This is growing imo !)
3) As you point out - more online use and less 'have to have that app' use .
I'll outline this in a slightly different way. Moving people over to Linux requires answering three questions:
  1. Where are my files?
  2. Do I have to run different software?
  3. How much do I have to relearn before I can get work done?
If your entire workflow is running MS Word, Excel, and Adobe Photoshop and you store your files on the domain controller network share, switching to Linux is going to be a very different situation than someone who keeps their files in Dropbox and mostly sticks to Firefox, Steam games, and VLC. People will always need to know where their data is, how to quickly view and edit it, and, frankly, many of them don't care if they have a Liquorix kernel installed or not. UNIX-based operating systems were never really designed to be user-friendly and, when things go sideways and we end up having to drop down to single-user mode, they still aren't.

Once a platform like MX Linux is GUI-enabled enough that people don't have to worry about partition tables and the intricacies of running something obtuse like "useradd -m -d /home/username -g groupname username; passwd username", the question of "Do I have to run different software?" can quickly turn into "No, not really." If you use Steam, Firefox, and VLC on Windows, it works much the same on Linux. If you can tolerate a bit of a learning curve, LibreOffice is pretty close to being Word-compatible, so you won't have to convert many of your old .DOCX files. The real hurdle to converting people to Linux isn't "They need to understand that it's free/libre!" It's "They need to know they can run their software on this, too."
Last edited by DukeComposed on Mon Mar 04, 2024 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yes, about all that old Windows 10 hardware.....

#20 Post by j2mcgreg »

I think that there's a fourth factor in play these days --> money. With inflation prevalent everywhere users are going to balk when a Win 11 update wipes out their video or sound card (because their OEMs aren't providing updated drivers) and they are faced with having to buy while not really being able to afford new kit. I think that in the near future the Microsoft ecosystem will have priced themselves out of a large part of the market.
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