The future of Xfce

[Mauser]

The Xfce dev team is likely smaller than that of MX, and all volunteers. I'm sure they listen to their users judging from some of their comments on those forum pages linked earlier. I suspect they even may be considering going in that direction because it may be a lot harder not to, due to GTK being subject to the whims of Gnome devs.
Please restrict your negative comments about Xfce devs. Or go join their team and help code.

I disagree. They listen while they offer support but when it comes to development it doesn't look that way. Changing is easier than leaving it alone? I am not a coder. The MX Linux developers listen to there user based just as every good development team does. Why can't the Xfce developers do the same?

[dreamer]

Please restrict your negative comments about Xfce devs. Or go join their team and help code.

I disagree. They listen while they offer support but when it comes to development it doesn't look that way. Changing is easier than leaving it alone? I am not a coder. The MX Linux developers listen to there user based just as every good development team does. Why can't the Xfce developers do the same?

Yeah, this isn't primarily about the devs. It's about Xfce which has many users. If you develop something used by many there is responsibility. You don't have to care about this responsibility, but the result will be angry users. That's just the logical effect.

There seems to be some internal struggle, basically Simon pushing CSDs, while other devs may be more skeptical. Simon has done good work for Xfce, but this is a radical departure for Xfce. Especially since Xfce is a good home for those who want a small, modular and efficient desktop environment aka not Gnome.

[freemedia2018]

Not sure if I'd leave MX because of it though.

ive used antix, problems with xfce wouldnt stop me from using mx. id just remove xfce (from the live dvd) and add something else.

[az2020]

First I looked into KDE and the developers there have no intention of creating a Whisker menu for KDE which rules out KDE as a replacement because none of their application menus can be resized and all three feel clunky to use. The closest replacement I found to Xfce is Mate with the Brisk menu but no one can answer if it can be resized like the Whisker menu.

I would think LXQt's developers would be the most open to taking it in this direction. I was just googling about it, and found a thread from back in 2015 saying they want it.

I don't know much about this, but from some comments I've read: KDE uses Qt as well, so LXQt & KDE can share a lot of packages. If that's true, porting/creating the whisker menu could make it available for both desktops(?). That might create more incentive for someone to do that? LXQt is gaining more use. Manjaro has had a user-created distro for a few years. SparkyLinux has a LXQt version.

[Mauser]

Please restrict your negative comments about Xfce devs. Or go join their team and help code.

I disagree. They listen while they offer support but when it comes to development it doesn't look that way. Changing is easier than leaving it alone? I am not a coder. The MX Linux developers listen to there user based just as every good development team does. Why can't the Xfce developers do the same?

Yeah, this isn't primarily about the devs. It's about Xfce which has many users. If you develop something used by many there is responsibility. You don't have to care about this responsibility, but the result will be angry users. That's just the logical effect.

There seems to be some internal struggle, basically Simon pushing CSDs, while other devs may be more skeptical. Simon has done good work for Xfce, but this is a radical departure for Xfce. Especially since Xfce is a good home for those who want a small, modular and efficient desktop environment aka not Gnome.

Thank you for clarifying it.

[Mauser]

First I looked into KDE and the developers there have no intention of creating a Whisker menu for KDE which rules out KDE as a replacement because none of their application menus can be resized and all three feel clunky to use. The closest replacement I found to Xfce is Mate with the Brisk menu but no one can answer if it can be resized like the Whisker menu.

I would think LXQt's developers would be the most open to taking it in this direction. I was just googling about it, and found a thread from back in 2015 saying they want it.

I don't know much about this, but from some comments I've read: KDE uses Qt as well, so LXQt & KDE can share a lot of packages. If that's true, porting/creating the whisker menu could make it available for both desktops(?). That might create more incentive for someone to do that? LXQt is gaining more use. Manjaro has had a user-created distro for a few years. SparkyLinux has a LXQt version.

In my experience I don't find them to be a trustworthy source. From what I understand if I understand correctly is the Whisker menu is built with the Gtk tool kit while LXQt & KDE are both built with the Qt tool kit which that difference doesn't look good for the Whisker menu being added to either LXQt or KDE. From what I understand the Whisker menu would have to be rebuilt using the Qt tool kit in order to work on KDE. I did make a request to the KDE developers to add the Whisker menu to the three application menus, but based on their response they had no idea what the Whisker menu is. This means the KDE developers don't look at what the competition is doing. Perhaps they are so busy and wrapped up in development. I showed them and described to them the Whisker menu but they didn't seem to have any interest in it. I could live with the Application Launcher in KDE if I could resize it so easily like the Whisker menu but when I ask the KDE developers they once again act like they don't understand and it doesn't seem like they will add that feature. Perhaps they are so busy and became lost in KDE since it has so many features already. With the speed of Xfce development we probably won't see what the Xfce developers actually do in at least 5 years which is a big plus for all of us. Also this gives the MX Linux developers to come out with work arounds if Xfce gets ruined.

[nathan2423]

Mauser looks like you and I think alike. Maybe if needed in the future the xfce-panel could be made to run under LXQT, and then we get the whisker menu in LXQT that way? Kind of like a PeppermintOS mashup with MX?

[az2020]

In my experience I don't find them to be a trustworthy source. From what I understand if I understand correctly is the Whisker menu is built with the Gtk tool kit while LXQt & KDE are both built with the Qt tool kit which that difference doesn't look good for the Whisker menu being added to either LXQt or KDE.

From what followed in your post, I assume you mean KDE isn't trustworthy(?). The link to Manjaro says the LXQt people were jonesing for Xfce's whisker. LXQt's community might be more welcoming of someone wanting to implement it with the Qt framework?

IMO, LXQt is kind of odd. It started out intending to be an exact recreation of LXDE. But, it seems like they're adding some newness to it. Some people were unhappy with the direction LXDE took with this, the higher resource usage (Lubuntu deprioritized being lightweight). My impression was that LXQt/Lubuntu were letting things flow where they will. That might have been a good strategy because now Xfce is getting larger. LXQt might be the lightweight desktop again (relative to others).

Another thing that seems odd to me: I've read someone remark how LXQt is essentially competing against KDE. Neon KDE isn't that large (I just installed 20 distros. I did it a year ago too. I was surprise then and now how KDE is relativlely lightweight. It has a lot of config items to disable eye candy and animations. When you do that, it's in MX's territory.). That makes me wonder why the LXQt peple didn't just create a KDE-light desktop instead of something new from scratch.

Anyway, it has seemed like LXQt is creating a new "brand" (so to speak), finding a new niche. Especially as other distros evolve. It seems to me they'd be the most welcoming of an effort to bring Whisker to Qt. (And then, I think that would be useable in KDE too.).

I personally have always liked KDE. It reminds me of OS/2 for some reason. I wasn't very fond of LXQt a year ago. But, that could just be my own aversion to change. I just booted a Lubuntu 20.04 alpha the other day, and I thought LXQt looked nicer than I remember 19.4 being.

It's interesting how these things are evolving. A year or two ago, people were upset about LXDE being replaced with Qt. Xfce was the baseline of comparison. Now the spot light's on Xfce doing something new. Maybe this is LXQt's opportunity to be the baseline. (KDE used to be synonymous with large. Now it's in the mid-range compared to Mint Cinnamon, Zorin Core
or Elementary OS.).

[freemedia2018]

A year or two ago, people were upset about LXDE being replaced with Qt. Xfce was the baseline of comparison. Now the spot light's on Xfce doing something new. Maybe this is LXQt's opportunity to be the baseline.

people who were happy with the way things were are probably going to be unhappy no matter what. despite what this could sound like, im on their side with this.

what i would like is something that is so profoundly and easily scriptable that once people are happy with it, they can keep it the way they want for 15-20 years.

that way when people make these changes, theyre only to a layout file-- not to a binary-- and people who liked it "the old way" can just use an older layout. honestly, machine learning is doing all kinds of amazing things (probably wont help directly, im not saying it does) and we cant even get icons and titlebars right. not a specific critique of xfce-- this is the entire ecosystem of free (better than non-free, sure-- but how much?) gui toolkits im taking issue with.

why cant they just make THEMES extend to LAYOUT so that big changes dont affect people who dont actually want to be affected? it really shouldnt be so hard to give choices here. its only hard due to the fact that they make it hard-- first for themselves. then for the rest of us. somebody-- no, i dont know who-- really ought to help these people. perhaps someday. this isnt rocket science. its only complicated if the toolkit developers want it to be. (they want it to be.)

[dolphin_oracle]

sometimes devs do things to keep themselves interested, else they get bored and wander off, which isn't good for anyone.