Rage against the systemd 'machine'

[mxer]

I like the simplicity of the old ways of unix, unfortunately, it is becoming harder to use it that way because of corporate backing of certain softwares.

Being tied into one way of doing things is not the unix way of working, there should always be choices.

I have been on the verge of departing Linux in favour of BSD for a while now, but am still managing to use a distro that thinks the same way as I do, so haven't gone..... yet.

I know no one cares what I think about this, you all have your own opinions - but it looks like the day will soon come, when you can no longer use your computer like you used to be able to do, & you will have to do what your are told to do/use - just like that other O/S.

Sitting on the fence - for now.

[rasat]

As a user of both in several distros, they both work well and have identical speed and response. I do like journalctl better than scratching through log files though.

That's not true. Running Xfce not that much but obvious difference running Gnome (most likely also KDE) in systemd and sysvinit. Same also with many apps. Try yourselves, install Gnome or Xfce, and we discuss.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=50684

[richb]

Thank you Tim for an unbiased, insightful answer to my question.

[anticapitalista]

@rasat has asked me if it were possible to run the Gnome DE on antiX (he's a Gnome guy, I think.) I told him I'd give it a whirl; I'll set up a quick snapshot that will have both KDE & Gnome on the same antiX19 base.

Once we get to the next alpha/beta, the answer is yes.

Here it is running in virtualbox,

Code: Select all

System:    Host: antix1 Kernel: 4.9.176-antix.1-amd64-smp x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 8.3.0 
           Desktop: Gnome 3.30.2 wm: gnome-shell dm: SLiM 1.3.6 
           Distro: antiX-19.a3_x64-full Marielle Franco 5 June 2019 
           base: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) 
Memory:    RAM: total: 996.2 MiB used: 544.4 MiB (54.7%) 
Repos:     Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/antix.list 
           1: deb http: //ftp.cc.uoc.gr/mirrors/linux/mx/antix/buster buster main nonfree
           Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian-stable-updates.list 
           1: deb http: //ftp.gr.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main contrib non-free
           Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian.list 
           1: deb http: //ftp.gr.debian.org/debian/ buster main contrib non-free
           2: deb http: //security.debian.org/ buster/updates main contrib non-free
           No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/onion.list 
           No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/various.list 
Processes: CPU top: 5 
           1: cpu: 39.9% command: packagekitd pid: 2424 mem: 17.4 MiB (1.7%) 
           2: cpu: 19.3% command: gnome-shell pid: 2284 mem: 243.8 MiB (24.4%) 
           3: cpu: 6.1% command: gnome-software pid: 2536 mem: 113.5 MiB (11.3%) 
           4: cpu: 1.4% command: xorg pid: 2027 mem: 58.9 MiB (5.9%) 
           5: cpu: 0.9% command: init pid: 1 mem: 2.09 MiB (0.2%) 
           Memory top: 5 
           1: mem: 243.8 MiB (24.4%) command: gnome-shell pid: 2284 cpu: 19.3% 
           2: mem: 113.5 MiB (11.3%) command: gnome-software pid: 2536 cpu: 6.1% 
           3: mem: 58.9 MiB (5.9%) command: xorg pid: 2027 cpu: 1.4% 
           4: mem: 51.7 MiB (5.1%) command: evolution-alarm-notify pid: 2531 cpu: 0.7% 
           5: mem: 30.7 MiB (3.0%) command: clipit pid: 2533 cpu: 0.3% 
Info:      Processes: 163 Uptime: 1m Init: SysVinit v: 2.93 runlevel: 5 default: 5 Compilers: 
           gcc: 8.3.0 alt: 8 Client: Gnome v: 3.30.2 inxi: 3.0.33 

[sunrat]

As a user of both in several distros, they both work well and have identical speed and response. I do like journalctl better than scratching through log files though.

That's not true. Running Xfce not that much but obvious difference running Gnome (most likely also KDE) in systemd and sysvinit.

That's your opinion and you're certainly free to have it. Your posts indicate an ideological bias against systemd so I don't expect any different.
I run MX with sysvinit, AVLinux (Xfce) and siduction (KDE Plasma 5) with systemd and perceive no difference in performance. I have no ideological preference.

[GuiGuy]

Thanks, Tim, for your excellent post #48.

I am very glad anticapitalista is preparing a path through the jungle for those of us who would like to stay with sysvinit.

[anticapitalista]

I am very glad anticapitalista is preparing a path through the jungle for those of us who would like to stay with sysvinit.

We should also thank the folks over at Debian-init-diversity (as HOAS mentioned).
Their work has made it easier to run Buster/sid without systemd.

[manyroads]

We should also thank the folks over at Debian-init-diversity (as HOAS mentioned).
Their work has made it easier to run Buster/sid without systemd.

But as long as we're congratulating people... @ anticapitalista, your antiX work & team are fantastic. The more I dig, the more I like it. (Sorry I was off-track)

[Head_on_a_Stick]

I don't think it's melodramatic. It's how I view the situation. YMMVG. IMO this attempt to force people to use systemd and make it very difficult not to is very similar to Microsoft's attempts to force people to use Windows and make it very difficult not to.

I think you're just being paranoid, Red Hat and the other corporations leading Linux development couldn't care less which init system desktop distributions use and they aren't trying to "force" anybody.

It usually turns out that the "impressive raft of functionality" of systemd used by Gnome and others was already available using standard tools.

Yes, hacks are always possible — just look at the ridiculous PID files sysvinit uses to compensate for it's lack of process supervision.

And if such hacks are possible then there is no "lock in", you can't have it both ways...

Poettering looked at Apple's launchd and thought "Hey, wouldn't it be better if processes in Linux could be centrally tracked and managed as well as Apple does it?"

Process supervision is a fundamental part of init system functionality and it is offered by both runit and OpenRC, along with most other PID1 implementations.

See also https://busybox.net/~vda/init_vs_runsv.html

[rasat]

That's your opinion and you're certainly free to have it. Your posts indicate an ideological bias against systemd so I don't expect any different.
I run MX with sysvinit, AVLinux (Xfce) and siduction (KDE Plasma 5) with systemd and perceive no difference in performance. I have no ideological preference.

When I started the tests with ascii and beowulf respins (SysVinit, not systemd-shim as MX), I didn't expect any performance difference. Why should there be. Just wanted to check if systemd-shim can be replaced with SysVinit or not. When comparing my current running MX Gnome buster by debian with MX Gnome beowulf by devuan, in same machine, I was surprised about the speed difference.

Next test, installed MX 18.3 and checked the performance. Converted it to ascii and got surprised again with the speed. At bottom line, I hate opinions, when things can be tested and see with your own eyes. This why I made the DIY for members to check on their own. At this moment I have results when running in i7 machine. About other processors, no opinion.